Lord of Chaos Question

[XoMeltdownoX]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

Why would Taim do it in person? Yes if the goal was to kill her you could be right. The goal here was for her to live and tell the other AS what happened and pass on the message.

[thisguy]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

Why would Taim do it in person? Yes if the goal was to kill her you could be right. The goal here was for her to live and tell the other AS what happened and pass on the message.

To see that it's done right, maybe.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

Why would Taim do it in person? Yes if the goal was to kill her you could be right. The goal here was for her to live and tell the other AS what happened and pass on the message.

To see that it's done right, maybe.

Ok fair enough.

[Maleshub]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

Why would Taim do it in person? Yes if the goal was to kill her you could be right. The goal here was for her to live and tell the other AS what happened and pass on the message.

To see that it's done right, maybe.

 

Except for the issue with Taim's arrogance that would not let him do such petty tasks. If killing Rand in Cairhien was delegated to minions (although Taim was there shortly afterwards), would a diversion wound in an Aes Sedai's body warrant his direct involvement?

[thisguy]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

Why would Taim do it in person? Yes if the goal was to kill her you could be right. The goal here was for her to live and tell the other AS what happened and pass on the message.

To see that it's done right, maybe.

 

Except for the issue with Taim's arrogance that would not let him do such petty tasks. If killing Rand in Cairhien was delegated to minions (although Taim was there shortly afterwards), would a diversion wound in an Aes Sedai's body warrant his direct involvement?

 

Who knows? Let's say he was given the order from someone up high - he's a big fish in a small pond - he wants to make sure it's done right. Let's say the whole thing was one big plan - stab As - Rand flees - captured and then Taim saves him - if one of the Foresaken wants more discord and distrust between AS and Rand - what better way. But, it needs to be done right. So, Taim stabs one, causing them to come to Rand in anger (which, TBH, I didn't like - made them seem even more unprofessional than I usually think of them), he flees (although, this is by pure luck as two more AS show up in Caemlyn) and then gets captured by the Tower AS, and saved by Taim.

Now, Rand will never trust AS. He actually says that at the end. Taim helps save his ass. So, if it was one giant DF plan, it's one of the best -

Rand pushed to more paranoia and anger

no more trust of AS

BUT, AS submit to him - although, I think Taim wanted some to die or be gentled

Rand still distrustful of Taim but knows that Taim helped save him

Also, AS distrustful of Aiel now - some of them

[yoniy0]

C'mon, Taim can't count on never meeting Demira again. He would certainly not risk recognition.

[spoke]

Without a doubt. I wrote the following before tGS came out--I'm still punching myself for not picking the BA-traitor line, it was there just one step further--but yes, without a doubt.

 

The Very Helpful Verin Theory

.

.

.

I have a possible answer.

 

Corianin's Notes

 

My guess is they contain notes on the Aes Sedai themselves, possibly with dreams about the dangers of the Aes Sedai gaining too much leverage on Rand, or too much control over events approaching TG. We can already see the ways in which that would have been disastrous, and in more just than the Moiraine ways listed--no Asha'men, for instance, and no clean saidin. It's my guess that Corianin's notes are what set Verin on this path.

 

Now, is there evidence for this? I think there is in the fact that she considered showing them to Egwene. Like Moiraine I suspect Verin saw that Egwene had the potential to be a driving force in the tower, and a power in upcoming events, and that given her history with Rand, a good influence on the Aes Sedai's dealings with Rand. These notes would forewarn Egwene, and possibly give Verin an ally.

 

So why does she choose not to? Well, Egwene's young, and shown herself to be a bit impulsive. These notes, if they say what I suspect they say, would be questioning the very principals of the Tower. They would suggest directly acting against the Tower's best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel. And that is against both Law and custom--that Verin was planning to act on them could have seen her stilled. Egwene may have been inclined to be more liberal, but she was still dedicated to the Tower, and impressed by the doctrine of the Aes Sedai. The risk was too great.

 

Conclusions

 

Ultimately every one of her peculiar actions lend themself to one thing--Verin acting to keep Aes Sedai from taking over, and yet still stay involved in the fight against the Shadow. Of course this still leaves things up in the air--why did she say nothing about Luc, how did she lie... I suspect we won't know the answers to those till it's revealed in the book. Either way I would sustain that her purpose is as stated above.

 

Edit to add: I still believe that Corianin's notes began this, and that the question Verin asked that led the Black Ajah into recruiting her were questions about the stagnation of the Tower and the arrogance and blindness of the modern Aes Sedai--precisely the sort of questions that are at once both reasonable, and might be read as the sort of thing that might indicate Verin's loyalties weren't very strong (and thus that she might be open to recruitment).

 

Luckers, the 70 year thing probably has nothing to do with Coriann's notes. She makes a specific mention that she has been planning something for 70 years is more likely the Black Ajah hunt. She snooped around and found herself confronted with two choices, join the black or die. She chose to join the black and studied it from the inside in order to destroy it.

 

As to why not to reveal Luc to Perrin, I think that this has to do with one of the Black Ajah Oaths on not revealing other Darkfriends, or active Darkfriend plots.

[Luckers]

Without a doubt. I wrote the following before tGS came out--I'm still punching myself for not picking the BA-traitor line, it was there just one step further--but yes, without a doubt.

 

The Very Helpful Verin Theory

.

.

.

I have a possible answer.

 

Corianin's Notes

 

My guess is they contain notes on the Aes Sedai themselves, possibly with dreams about the dangers of the Aes Sedai gaining too much leverage on Rand, or too much control over events approaching TG. We can already see the ways in which that would have been disastrous, and in more just than the Moiraine ways listed--no Asha'men, for instance, and no clean saidin. It's my guess that Corianin's notes are what set Verin on this path.

 

Now, is there evidence for this? I think there is in the fact that she considered showing them to Egwene. Like Moiraine I suspect Verin saw that Egwene had the potential to be a driving force in the tower, and a power in upcoming events, and that given her history with Rand, a good influence on the Aes Sedai's dealings with Rand. These notes would forewarn Egwene, and possibly give Verin an ally.

 

So why does she choose not to? Well, Egwene's young, and shown herself to be a bit impulsive. These notes, if they say what I suspect they say, would be questioning the very principals of the Tower. They would suggest directly acting against the Tower's best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel. And that is against both Law and custom--that Verin was planning to act on them could have seen her stilled. Egwene may have been inclined to be more liberal, but she was still dedicated to the Tower, and impressed by the doctrine of the Aes Sedai. The risk was too great.

 

Conclusions

 

Ultimately every one of her peculiar actions lend themself to one thing--Verin acting to keep Aes Sedai from taking over, and yet still stay involved in the fight against the Shadow. Of course this still leaves things up in the air--why did she say nothing about Luc, how did she lie... I suspect we won't know the answers to those till it's revealed in the book. Either way I would sustain that her purpose is as stated above.

 

Edit to add: I still believe that Corianin's notes began this, and that the question Verin asked that led the Black Ajah into recruiting her were questions about the stagnation of the Tower and the arrogance and blindness of the modern Aes Sedai--precisely the sort of questions that are at once both reasonable, and might be read as the sort of thing that might indicate Verin's loyalties weren't very strong (and thus that she might be open to recruitment).

 

Luckers, the 70 year thing probably has nothing to do with Coriann's notes. She makes a specific mention that she has been planning something for 70 years is more likely the Black Ajah hunt. She snooped around and found herself confronted with two choices, join the black or die. She chose to join the black and studied it from the inside in order to destroy it.

 

 

Well, as I said, I wrote this before tGS came out. BUT, I still believe Corianin's notes play there part, and if i am correct and Corianin's notes led her to asking the questions which led to her being recruited by the Black Ajah... then the two are one and the same.

 

It would explain why she considered burning them, why she considered giving them to Egwene, and in the end, why she did neither.

 

As to why not to reveal Luc to Perrin, I think that this has to do with one of the Black Ajah Oaths on not revealing other Darkfriends, or active Darkfriend plots.

 

Possibly, or she could simply have seen it as a betrayal of the Dark One.

[yoniy0]

To be frank, her efforts to keep Rand independent seem at a disconnect from her mission in the BA, but I still think you've got some keen observations there. A bit of it naturally requires updating, but not the core.

[Luckers]

To be frank, her efforts to keep Rand independent seem at a disconnect from her mission in the BA, but I still think you've got some keen observations there. A bit of it naturally requires updating, but not the core.

 

What I'm suggesting is that they predate her mission in the BA. I'm in fact suggesting that it was expressing concerns about the nature of modern Aes Sedai that led to her being recruited, and that for all that she was recruited, and thus gained another mission, she never forgot or ignore her original concerns.

 

That being said, the facts speak for themselves. Verin did not want Aes Sedai influencing Rand. Except Cadsuane, and her only after rigerous study.

[yoniy0]

Yeah, I got that. I'm not sure there's anything really supporting your suggestion, but it's certainly possible. At any rate, I do accept your conclusion regarding her motives with other sisters.

[Luckers]

Yeah, I got that. I'm not sure there's anything really supporting your suggestion, but it's certainly possible. At any rate, I do accept your conclusion regarding her motives with other sisters.

 

Well, we d know that she was asking questions--its what attracted the Black Ajah to her. From there, the single most likely subject matter to be both the point of innocent questions on Verin's part, and to lead to Black Ajah to believe she was disatisfied with the Light and open to converting would be the idiocies present in the Aes Sedai self-conceptualisation and world-view.

 

From there, it being Corianin's notes also make a lot of sense--both in why she considered giving them to Egwene, whom it was clear was already slated to be influential as an Aes Sedai during the Time of Change. That sort of information would not only be valuable to such a person, but to Egwene especially, with her nature of absorbing whatever was around her and trying to embody it--yes I could see a very decent argument for giving such information to Egwene at that point in time, and just the same, it also provides the argument for why Verin ultimately didn't, because that information could very well stunt Egwene's growth as an Aes Sedai--even drive her away from that path, or certainly put her in a position that would undercut any influence she had with other sisters before she could actually use the knowledge--if simply having and reacting to that knowledge led to Verin becoming Black Ajah, she would be in a position to realise that. And too it paints a target, and represents a grave threat to the Tower.

 

So yes, it makes sense--why she considered giving to Egwene, why she didn't, and why she considered destroying it, and again why she didn't. Value and danger.