Why Alviarin's role in the series is ultimately futile

[Glyphwright]

Alviarin, leader of the Black Ajah, and arguably one of the more interesting antagonists of Wheel of Time, essentially exited the plot not with a bang, but with a whimp. She's not dead yet, and will certainly have a role to play in AMoL, but her time in the White Tower is pretty much over. Everyone knows who she is, the Black Ajah has been ousted, whether she has any real authority left is anyone's guess, but ultimately she will try to do what the Forsaken order her to do, fail, and get killed off.

 

Her storyline reached its climax in CoT. Three things happen in the chapter, neither of which has any further bearing on the plot.

 

She gets what she's been yearning for this whole time - a good long look at Mesaana without her disguise. She never connects her with Danelle, and doesn't try to overthrow her like she promised herself she would.

 

Shaidar Haran marks her as his own, giving her limited protection from Shadowspawn. This is never brought up again, and why would he even need to ward her against Shadowspawn when she's supposed to stay within the Tower and look for the BA hunters?

 

She is ordered to seek the Black Ajah hunters, and even has a pretty good hunch to go on. She never accomplishes anything of notice, and the Black Ajah gets exposed, partially decimated, and goes into hiding. Oh, don't get me wrong, it's not that Alviarin could have prevented this had she been more competent. The Black Ajah hunters never accomplish anything of notice either. Verin, the walking plot convenience, falls on Egwene like an anvil from the sky, drops off a nearly complete list of Black Ajah members at Egwene's room, and dies. I wish I were kidding.

 

In fact, the only real change that lasts after the CoT chapter is that Alviarin gets sacked as Keeper, loses any control she had over Elaida, has daily penance with the Mistress of Novices, and is spurned by her own Ajah (the whole ten of them, I imagine). Basically, she falls out of grace with everybody in the Tower, including Mesaana who must have hated being exposed and punished in front of her. And all because she spent a full month on Tremalking, of all places. Doing what? Studying the Water Way? Examining the sa'angreal? We never find out, and since all the residents of Tremalking promptly commit mass suicide after the sa'angreal melts, it's unlikely to be something of any relevance to anybody.

 

After that she is only seen whimpering empty promises to Egwene who doesn't believe her for a second, and acting like a faceless mook in Mesaana's attack. Way to subdue one of the few villains that were fun to read, Jordan and Sanderson. Obviously Alviarin and Yukiri's gang should have found each other in the end, thus producing the information Egwene needed to root the BA out of the tower, and giving Alvi the justice she deserved - the BA undone by her own mouth.

 

Now whose fault do you think this is? Did RJ build up Alviarin's side-plot (and the related BA hunters side-plot) while lacking any coherent conclusion in his mind, making it essentially a big red-herring and a f-you to the reader, or was BS forced to stuff her into a closet due to insufficient information in the notes? It could be that the first led to the other. I really don't see Sanderson using Verin in such a spectacularly bad way all on his own, he must have been following the notes.

[Maleshub]

One interesting thing about Alviarin is what she was doing in Tremalking for a month. Mesaana sent her there at the risk of having her lose Elaida's "leash." So, she might have gone there to contact/recruit Black Windfinders. Or maybe she was somehow connected to what happened to the Amayar.

[Luckers]

I personally think this got slipped between the RJ/BS swapover. My guess is RJ intended for the BA Hunters to serve as a red herring for Verin to the Shadow--as in the Shadow moves to protect itself from the BA Hunters, and Verin slips quietly through unnoticed. In fact I suspect RJ lightly intended a lot more for both sides of that little debate (for instance the way he kept them suspicious of Elaida, but had Egwene specifically raise Alviarin's letter in KoD and so forth).

 

But, as this is a minor point it probably didn't make it into the notes (the notes are a lot less comprehensive than people like to believe), and thus slipped through the gaps.

[Suttree]

I personally think this got slipped between the RJ/BS swapover. My guess is RJ intended for the BA Hunters to serve as a red herring for Verin to the Shadow--as in the Shadow moves to protect itself from the BA Hunters, and Verin slips quietly through unnoticed. In fact I suspect RJ lightly intended a lot more for both sides of that little debate (for instance the way he kept them suspicious of Elaida, but had Egwene specifically raise Alviarin's letter in KoD and so forth).

 

But, as this is a minor point it probably didn't make it into the notes (the notes are a lot less comprehensive than people like to believe), and thus slipped through the gaps.

 

Agreed.

 

As for the notes I was actually quite surprised to learn in recent Q&As just how much BS actually created. It makes quite a bit of sense in retrospect when considering TGS and ToM but still surprising nevertheless.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Ive always wondered why the Black Ajah Hunters just didnt "kidnap" random sisters and take them down to the basement. The ones NOT Black Ajah would have been happy to swear on the oaths when they realized that the Black was real and the Hunters could produce real live members of it. In fact, the kidnapped non Black sisters likely would have happily joined the cadre of the Black Ajah Hunting Party. Of course, true sisters of the Black would never have sworn, and would have been caught that way.

[Maleshub]

Ive always wondered why the Black Ajah Hunters just didnt "kidnap" random sisters and take them down to the basement. The ones NOT Black Ajah would have been happy to swear on the oaths when they realized that the Black was real and the Hunters could produce real live members of it. In fact, the kidnapped non Black sisters likely would have happily joined the cadre of the Black Ajah Hunting Party. Of course, true sisters of the Black would never have sworn, and would have been caught that way.

 

They needed to be careful in their search. And they couldn't risk a Sister going to her Ajah head, including BA, to blabber or hint at what had happened to her. And I am sure the BA would have noticed if random Sisters were missing for a day or two when they were in the Tower. If Talene Minly is an example, it takes time to break a BA and make her agree to forswear her oaths. And the BA would notice if more than one of its members started acting like Talene and is incommunicado.

 

But most of all, the BA Hunters weren't supposed to succeed as that would undermine Verin's purpose.

[Glyphwright]

My guess is RJ intended for the BA Hunters to serve as a red herring for Verin to the Shadow

Well if he did, then this is one hell of poor writing on RJ's part. What do you think is more relevant to the reader, characters starting from humble beginnings, gradually working towards their goal and exposing their enemies against all danger and opposition, or having the list of names comfortably delivered in a book by a mysterious all-knowing plot convenience? If I didn't know any better, I'd say BS gave this role to Verin because he had no idea how to properly conclude the Black Ajah hunters plotline. This is on par with Shaidar Haran warding Alviarin against Shadowspawn - and ordering her to stay within the Tower. Doesn't make any sense.

[Morden]

This is on par with Shaidar Haran warding Alviarin against Shadowspawn - and ordering her to stay within the Tower. Doesn't make any sense.

 

The impression I got from this bit, is similar to how the Chosen are marked in Shayul Gul, in a sense he marked her as a top dog. Chosen can kill other chosen if they are clever enough not to get caught, but they are not allowed to punish each other...

 

Could that mark also give her access to True Power? I think that is a likely possibility, which could still give her relevance.

 

The Last Battle is not just going to be Good OP users vs Bad OP users. The DO could afford to give some of the more loyal Dreadlords access to TP... afterall they would die if they used to much unless he chooses to protect them.

[TristanWebb]

The chosen mark doesn't give access. The DO can give access to anyone he feels like. The mark just lets really dedicated DFs and Shadowspan know she is better than them.

[Glyphwright]

RJ said this about Alviarin's mark in a q&a (clearly there's no room for something so minor within the text of the novels, lest we be distracted from Min dandling on Rand's knee and calling him a wool-headed lummox for the zillionth time):

 

The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

So basically, Shaidar Haran warded her against Shadowspawn, and ordered her to stay within a location that contains no Shadowspawn. Yes. Brilliant.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Alviarin's story shows us how the forces of the DO eat their own. The dark side plots as much against each other as they against the Light. Selfishness is a prime trait in recruitment/advancement. This is the real reason the DO will never win.

[Mr Ares]

RJ said this about Alviarin's mark in a q&a (clearly there's no room for something so minor within the text of the novels, lest we be distracted from Min dandling on Rand's knee and calling him a wool-headed lummox for the zillionth time):

 

The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

So basically, Shaidar Haran warded her against Shadowspawn, and ordered her to stay within a location that contains no Shadowspawn. Yes. Brilliant.

That she is not faced with Shadowspawn for the time being does not mean that safety from Shadowspawn will not be important in the future, for example, during TG.

[TristanWebb]

Or wherever she is living right now after fleeing the Tower.

[Glyphwright]

That she is not faced with Shadowspawn for the time being does not mean that safety from Shadowspawn will not be important in the future, for example, during TG.

That's not the point. The point is, why bother warding Alviarin specifically against Shadowspawn, how is that going to help her find the Black Ajah hunters? What is this going to accomplish anyway? We've seen Trollocks and non-channeling darkfriends working together, and generally the Trollocks didn't start eating them until after everything went to hell. And Alviarin can channel, so why is this mark even necessary?

[rand4747]

theres usually myrdraal with the trollocs to stop the trollocs eating the darkfriends. Or they are sufficiently afraid that their eating ill be found out and so hold off :P

[Maleshub]

That she is not faced with Shadowspawn for the time being does not mean that safety from Shadowspawn will not be important in the future, for example, during TG.

That's not the point. The point is, why bother warding Alviarin specifically against Shadowspawn, how is that going to help her find the Black Ajah hunters? What is this going to accomplish anyway? We've seen Trollocks and non-channeling darkfriends working together, and generally the Trollocks didn't start eating them until after everything went to hell. And Alviarin can channel, so why is this mark even necessary?

 

Alviarin earned her mark because she is one of the rare few followers of the DO who was efficient and successful at what she was tasked with. She ran the BA for years and its numbers rose to nearly 20% of the WT. And she succeeded in her tasks regarding the breaking of the WT. There were other tasks, e.g. Tremalking, that she probably fulfilled as well. Too bad Mesaana's ineptitude ruined her.

[Mr Ares]

That she is not faced with Shadowspawn for the time being does not mean that safety from Shadowspawn will not be important in the future, for example, during TG.

That's not the point. The point is, why bother warding Alviarin specifically against Shadowspawn, how is that going to help her find the Black Ajah hunters? What is this going to accomplish anyway? We've seen Trollocks and non-channeling darkfriends working together, and generally the Trollocks didn't start eating them until after everything went to hell. And Alviarin can channel, so why is this mark even necessary?

Why does it have to help root out BA hunters? Are you saying that unless there is an immediate benefit to something, there is no point to it? That is absurd. But if you're not saying that, I've already said that it might be important in the future. When she has to be surrounded by Shadowspawn all the time, for example. What happens when everything goes to hell? It is perfectly valid to give her a reward that might be useful to her in the future, even if it has no immediate use.

[Glyphwright]

Why does it have to help root out BA hunters?

Why does a character need to show intentions and perform actions that make logical sense? Well... because they do. You don't put Rand on a boat and tell him to venture forth into the Aiel Waste, it doesn't make sense. You don't ward Alviarin against Shadowspawn and tell her to stay within the White Tower - it doesn't make sense. She doesn't need a mark that can only be seen by creatures that are nowhere to be found in the vicinity of her domain.

 

When she has to be surrounded by Shadowspawn all the time, for example

Give her the mark when it's time to give her a mark. That's good writing. Making characters do things much earlier in the plot than logic dictates is poor writing, it creates a false lead that never pays off.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Aliviarin did good work, Shaidar Haran rewards her with the Mark, which can come in use in the future.

 

It is a proven literary technique to place something in a scene which has no immediate relevance, to later have it come to be importance. It is basic literature.

 

If you don't like it, that is fair enough. But it is not poor writing, it is perfectly accepted form of writing.

 

Having said that, you have a point to an extent. However, this isn't a good time for the topic, since the story is not over. If nothing further is mentioned in aMoL then I agree completely. Something obviously must have gone wrong, be it poor structure or mistakes. For now though, I reserve judgement until everything has played out.

 

Edit: This should explain: http://en.wikipedia....ekhov's_gun

[TristanWebb]

The only thing we know about it is that it protects her from Shadowspawn, but that doesn't mean it is the only thing it does. In fact, we know for certain that it does do other things from the RJ quote. Who knows what kind of connection she now has to the DO.

[Glyphwright]

It is a proven literary technique to place something in a scene which has no immediate relevance, to later have it come to be importance

Whether or not the mark ever plays a role in the last book is not the point I'm making. The point is that a character's actions need to make logical sense for them to be believable. Shaidar Haran could have chosen any number of ways to reward Alviarin, yet he ends up giving her something that is completely irrelevant to the task he set her upon. It would be logical for him to ward Alviarin against Shadowspawn before putting her in charge of an army of Trollocks, or making her a part of a band of Darkfriends + Shadowspawn, or before sending her to the Blight. That would have been appropriate. The way RJ did it was 1. random; 2. out-of-place; 3. lackluster, because, along with the other plotlines mentioned in the OP, it never leads anywhere. It's poor writing. It's not poor writing because there's a delay between an action (placing the mark), and its consequences in the plot (whatever may or may not happen in AMoL). It's poor writing because the action itself is out of place.

 

To say otherwise suggests no experience or knowledge of literature

I post in this forum solely for the purpose of discussing the merits and flaws of the books and their author(s), rather than criticizing any forum member's perceived lack of experience, knowledge, intelligence, understanding, or anything of this sort. Your post in the neighbouring thread was fairly nasty, please try to be civil in the future, and remember that a statement needs to be supported by rational and objective arguments in order to be valid.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Edit: my bad there-

 

Mesaana has just been punished for disobeying. Aliviarin in under her direct control.

 

Shaidar Haran places the mark as insurance. To let Mesaana know that Aliviarin is the DO's dog, because Aliviarin has been useful and has just witnessed Mesaana being disgraced, not to mention revealed her identity (even if Aliviarin doesn't recognize at the time).

 

Thus, with the Mark, Mesaana won't be able to kill Aliviarin, which she almost certainly would do after events that have transpired.

 

And I apologize, my intent wasn't to offend. As you can see, I deleted that part, because after re-reading, I saw it was a poor choice of words. I tend to be blunt, as many can attest to, so know that it is not a personal thing.

[TristanWebb]

It wasn't a reward. It was 'Mesaana, this one isn't a complete fuckup like most of the DFs I have to deal with, so I want her kept alive. I'll brand her so no one else tries to kill her either'. Perfectly logical, it puts her on a higher station than any other DF we know of besides the Forsaken because she actually managed to do something, and it degrades Mesaana even before the true punishment begins. Anything else that the mark is used for is icing, it already served the purpose the DO needed it to at the time.

[Glyphwright]

Mesaana, this one isn't a complete fuckup like most of the DFs I have to deal with, so I want her kept alive. I'll brand her so no one else tries to kill her either

Simply saying this out loud would have been more than enough, and would have made any supernatural marks completely redundant. It would have actually been much more satisfying to the reader if Shaidar Haran explicitly told Mesaana off for her selfish intention to kill the one Darkfriend that's been consistently useful to the Shadow. It would have also been a more efficient way of degrading/shaming Mesaana. Redundant actions and unnecessary complexity are a sign of poor writing as surely as out-of-place actions.

 

"My hand reaches far, Mesaana. This creature has been a most useful servant to the Shadow, whereas you, a Chosen, ignored your summons. You will not harm her. Not unless I give you license to do so, and only if I say the word. Failure to comply... is death."

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mesaana, this one isn't a complete fuckup like most of the DFs I have to deal with, so I want her kept alive. I'll brand her so no one else tries to kill her either

Simply saying this out loud would have been more than enough, and would have made any supernatural marks completely redundant. It would have actually been much more satisfying to the reader if Shaidar Haran explicitly told Mesaana off for her selfish intention to kill the one Darkfriend that's been consistently useful to the Shadow. It would have also been a more efficient way of degrading/shaming Mesaana. Redundant actions and unnecessary complexity are a sign of poor writing as surely as out-of-place actions.

 

"My hand reaches far, Mesaana. This creature has been a most useful servant to the Shadow, whereas you, a Chosen, ignored your summons. You will not harm her. Not unless I give you lenience to do so, and only if I say the word. Failure to comply... is death."

 

Your opinion is fair enough, however, I wouldn't say it was a proof of bad writing.

 

In counterpoint, having to point out implied meanings and everything happen without mystery or complexity makes it seem that the author thinks their audience is stupid.

 

RJ responded to similar questions (why don't you just say things outright or something similar) saying that he respected his audience enough not to treat them like idiots.

(This is not trying to imply that you are stupid, I am talking about the theory behind the writing)

 

Now if that isn't your preference, that is perfectly fine.

 

 

.

In regards to it being overly complex and redundant

 

There is nothing overly complex in this scene. Mesaana, one of the Forsaken, who are known for their arrogance and pride, is pretty angry at Aliviarin, who sees her getting raped and humiliated, not to mention reveals her alter ego. Aliviarin is worried that Mesaana will kill her because of what has happened. Shaidar Haran marks her as the DO's own.

 

I would say it would be redundant to have to state what is happening outright. It is pretty clear, I think.

 

In addition, the Forsaken aren't known for their obedience. Mesaana has just disobeyed direct orders. I doubt that telling her off would stop her. And Shaidar Haran wouldn't take any chances. So the most logical thing to do is to mark her as taken. Now true, this doesn't mean that Mesaana won't try and kill her, but it is more effective than a scolding.

 

The Mark acts similar to a chip inserted into a dog's ear. Shaidar Haran can monitor her. In addition, it introduces a possible plot point to be exploited later.