Planned Seanchan Attack on the White Tower...

[Maleshub]

It might even take all three Ta'veren's presence to pull it off, but it needs to happen.

I hope it is all three, I would like to see Tuon, Tylee, and the rest of the entourage meet up with mat, perrin and rand. it could just be a wicked scene. Hopefully from Tuon's pov as well

 

As much as I would love to see it, I don't think RJ and Sanderson will resolve the Seanchan issue by the end of AMoL. At best, they might have a Dragon's Peace that is better than the one in Aviendha's visions. But the potential conflict in the future will remain to keep the world alive.

[thisguy]

It might even take all three Ta'veren's presence to pull it off, but it needs to happen.

I hope it is all three, I would like to see Tuon, Tylee, and the rest of the entourage meet up with mat, perrin and rand. it could just be a wicked scene. Hopefully from Tuon's pov as well

 

As much as I would love to see it, I don't think RJ and Sanderson will resolve the Seanchan issue by the end of AMoL. At best, they might have a Dragon's Peace that is better than the one in Aviendha's visions. But the potential conflict in the future will remain to keep the world alive.

Unfortunately, I agree. And, from book 2, I've wanted the Seanchan to get their asses kicked. Oh well....

[clu7ch]

agreed. and btw, aside from Tuon getting humbled, I'm completely done with the seanchan. They annoy me about as much as whitecloaks.

[thisguy]

agreed. and btw, aside from Tuon getting humbled, I'm completely done with the seanchan. They annoy me about as much as whitecloaks.

 

completely. i would almost rather Rand destroy the Seanchan than seal the DO up.

[clu7ch]

maybe their big heads will be stuffed into the bore? Watch. this post will be deleted by request of team jordan within the next hour.

[Glyphwright]

How to defeat the Seanchan:

 

1. Kidnap a suldam;

2. Teach her to channel, use the adam if necessary;

3. Send her back to the Seanchan;

4. Rinse and repeat.

 

Sooner or later, dozens of suldam suddenly turned into marath'damane will make the truth obvious.

[clu7ch]

Give Egwene harry's invisibility cloak, and get Avi horny again, she'll make a naked portal to Seanchan, Egwene just runs amok unlocking every single a'dam she finds, underground railroad style.

[FarShainMael]

I hope the planned attack doesn't happen, but only because it would be taking precious pages away from the true battle for something we have already seen. Not saying it won't, the whole Elayne needs to be kidnapped by the BA 4 times to start taking care thing shows BS isn't opposed to repeating events, but I hope it doesn't.

 

Luckers, I've been deeply curious for some time - do you know for **sure** that most of the sequence with Avi in The Way Forward Machine was mainly written by Brandon Sanderson?

 

One reason I ask - and this just shows how longtime readers can see things differently - is the fact that I actually thought that section represented some of Mr Sanderson's best WOT writing to date.

 

 

I think Brandon did a much better job with those future scenes (it helps that the characters were not already established) than with any other scene in either of the books he's done. For once he was right to be unsubtle; bashing us over the head with a horrifying possible future was exactly what those chapters needed. If I ever meet Brandon at a signing or whatever, the first thing I'd mention to him is how much I liked those chapters (provided he doesn't top himself in AMoL, that is). He nailed those chapters perfectly, unlike most of the others that left telltale hammer-marks around the nail.

 

Exactly how much leeway does BS have as far as plot elements are concerned?

How detailed are RJ's notes?

Is it BS who's repeating events, or RJ?

Did the notes say 'Show what will happen to the Aiel if .. but the details are up to you'?

[thisguy]

I hope the planned attack doesn't happen, but only because it would be taking precious pages away from the true battle for something we have already seen. Not saying it won't, the whole Elayne needs to be kidnapped by the BA 4 times to start taking care thing shows BS isn't opposed to repeating events, but I hope it doesn't.

 

Luckers, I've been deeply curious for some time - do you know for **sure** that most of the sequence with Avi in The Way Forward Machine was mainly written by Brandon Sanderson?

 

One reason I ask - and this just shows how longtime readers can see things differently - is the fact that I actually thought that section represented some of Mr Sanderson's best WOT writing to date.

 

 

I think Brandon did a much better job with those future scenes (it helps that the characters were not already established) than with any other scene in either of the books he's done. For once he was right to be unsubtle; bashing us over the head with a horrifying possible future was exactly what those chapters needed. If I ever meet Brandon at a signing or whatever, the first thing I'd mention to him is how much I liked those chapters (provided he doesn't top himself in AMoL, that is). He nailed those chapters perfectly, unlike most of the others that left telltale hammer-marks around the nail.

 

Exactly how much leeway does BS have as far as plot elements are concerned?

How detailed are RJ's notes?

Is it BS who's repeating events, or RJ?

Did the notes say 'Show what will happen to the Aiel if .. but the details are up to you'?

 

I am so curious about that, too. From the little bit I've read here from interviews with RJ, he said something about knowing what was going to happen throughout the books - but, he said, a guidepost of big event in the story in his mind might not be more than two people meeting and saying something. I think we'd be surprised by what was and was not RJ's sometimes.

[Sid]

Sanderson has said that RJ's notes are far from complete. There are spots with extremely significant detail, spots with actual finished writing, and then there are gaps, like "this guy goes here somehow" and then "now that he's there this happens" so Sanderson has to decide what happens in between. He's also mentioned situations like 'and then A or B happens' where A is the opposite of B. So he has to choose either A or B.

 

I don't think Brandon has been more specific about the notes than that. I wasn't really sure if Brandon wrote the scene in Rhuidean or not, until I read somewhere (on this site or twitter or something) that indicated that he had. I don't know that RJ could have done better with it, though.

 

Is it BS who's repeating events, or RJ?

Which events do you mean, exactly?

[thisguy]

Sanderson has said that RJ's notes are far from complete. There are spots with extremely significant detail, spots with actual finished writing, and then there are gaps, like "this guy goes here somehow" and then "now that he's there this happens" so Sanderson has to decide what happens in between. He's also mentioned situations like 'and then A or B happens' where A is the opposite of B. So he has to choose either A or B.

 

I don't think Brandon has been more specific about the notes than that. I wasn't really sure if Brandon wrote the scene in Rhuidean or not, until I read somewhere (on this site or twitter or something) that indicated that he had. I don't know that RJ could have done better with it, though.

 

Is it BS who's repeating events, or RJ?

Which events do you mean, exactly?

I'd love if they came out with an "lost tales" version of his notes to get a sense of what BS did and didn't do. And, you're right, if he wrote the Avi - Rhuidean part, he did a fantastic job. Personally, I haven't been disappointed in anything enough to not be thankful for his finishing the books. Not easy to take up something like this when so much has already been written and the fanbase is so huge.

[clu7ch]

a silmarillion type thing would be awesome here.

[thisguy]

a silmarillion type thing would be awesome here.

 

That would be, too. AoL version. But, I meant those books JRRT's son put out with all of his notes. I think they're called Lost Tales. I believe Unfinished Tales are actual stories.

[clu7ch]

definitely.

[XXX]

Soo, how many of you think this will happen? is it possible Mat will get a portal to Ebou Dar in time to stop it? Who knows, maybe the forces sitting at the FoM, will all get portalled all the way to Tar Valon and stomp on the Seanchan.

 

Its going to be very interesting to see whether the white tower would be able to hold up...

 

Im interested to see whether Aviendha can persuade Rand to do something about the captured wise ones as well, something to do with Kneeling in exchange perhaps? Something has to be done about the Seanchan, even if they simply exterminate every one of them they can find which is the simplest solution tbh. between Ashaman, Wise Ones, Windfinders, AS/Kin they must have upwards of 10k channelers.

 

And as the Seanchan do not train people to channel they only have access to those born with the spark, and the books say there are many times more suldam than damane. so perhaps 1-2k tops in randland?

 

 

If it was me, I would probably try and gather every Angrael and Sangrael the WT has along with whatever else they can scavenge, a core of Aiel wearing copies of Matts Medallion, big circles of males and females. split them up into groups of 30 or 40... Port using Saidin to just outside every single location the seanchan gather, then skim between every barrack and camp. Its incredibly harsh and bloodthirsty I guess and It wont happen with Rand Sedai...

 

But to me, the Seanchan must be broken or Aviendha's visions will most likely come true.

 

Among all the powers in Randland, the only one to work the OP into their battle tactics are the Seachan. And they have been doing it for a thousand years and are experts at it. Mat's medallion does not stop from the ground breaking under you or lightening striking you. It is impossible for Randland to beat the Seachan militarily. What Avi saw in her dream is pretty realistic, all the nations team up against Seachan and get smashed in the process.

[thisguy]

Soo, how many of you think this will happen? is it possible Mat will get a portal to Ebou Dar in time to stop it? Who knows, maybe the forces sitting at the FoM, will all get portalled all the way to Tar Valon and stomp on the Seanchan.

 

Its going to be very interesting to see whether the white tower would be able to hold up...

 

Im interested to see whether Aviendha can persuade Rand to do something about the captured wise ones as well, something to do with Kneeling in exchange perhaps? Something has to be done about the Seanchan, even if they simply exterminate every one of them they can find which is the simplest solution tbh. between Ashaman, Wise Ones, Windfinders, AS/Kin they must have upwards of 10k channelers.

 

And as the Seanchan do not train people to channel they only have access to those born with the spark, and the books say there are many times more suldam than damane. so perhaps 1-2k tops in randland?

 

 

If it was me, I would probably try and gather every Angrael and Sangrael the WT has along with whatever else they can scavenge, a core of Aiel wearing copies of Matts Medallion, big circles of males and females. split them up into groups of 30 or 40... Port using Saidin to just outside every single location the seanchan gather, then skim between every barrack and camp. Its incredibly harsh and bloodthirsty I guess and It wont happen with Rand Sedai...

 

But to me, the Seanchan must be broken or Aviendha's visions will most likely come true.

 

Among all the powers in Randland, the only one to work the OP into their battle tactics are the Seachan. And they have been doing it for a thousand years and are experts at it. Mat's medallion does not stop from the ground breaking under you or lightening striking you. It is impossible for Randland to beat the Seachan militarily. What Avi saw in her dream is pretty realistic, all the nations team up against Seachan and get smashed in the process.

 

Unfortunately, the Aiel didn't get involved in the vision. They just bided their time until the Seanchan came for them.

[Morden]

Soo, how many of you think this will happen? is it possible Mat will get a portal to Ebou Dar in time to stop it? Who knows, maybe the forces sitting at the FoM, will all get portalled all the way to Tar Valon and stomp on the Seanchan.

 

Its going to be very interesting to see whether the white tower would be able to hold up...

 

Im interested to see whether Aviendha can persuade Rand to do something about the captured wise ones as well, something to do with Kneeling in exchange perhaps? Something has to be done about the Seanchan, even if they simply exterminate every one of them they can find which is the simplest solution tbh. between Ashaman, Wise Ones, Windfinders, AS/Kin they must have upwards of 10k channelers.

 

And as the Seanchan do not train people to channel they only have access to those born with the spark, and the books say there are many times more suldam than damane. so perhaps 1-2k tops in randland?

 

 

If it was me, I would probably try and gather every Angrael and Sangrael the WT has along with whatever else they can scavenge, a core of Aiel wearing copies of Matts Medallion, big circles of males and females. split them up into groups of 30 or 40... Port using Saidin to just outside every single location the seanchan gather, then skim between every barrack and camp. Its incredibly harsh and bloodthirsty I guess and It wont happen with Rand Sedai...

 

But to me, the Seanchan must be broken or Aviendha's visions will most likely come true.

 

Among all the powers in Randland, the only one to work the OP into their battle tactics are the Seachan. And they have been doing it for a thousand years and are experts at it. Mat's medallion does not stop from the ground breaking under you or lightening striking you. It is impossible for Randland to beat the Seachan militarily. What Avi saw in her dream is pretty realistic, all the nations team up against Seachan and get smashed in the process.

 

Your quite wrong in thinking that its impossible for Randland to beat them very much so. Sa'angrael and Angrael alone would tip the difference if the AS were to revise their oaths to let them use the OP freely against the Seanchan(very very smart idea)

 

Add in links and they could decimate the Seanchan just by using large circles which could use shields of air etc (think when the Aiel surround the AS holding Rand) and then couple that with some serious Sa'angrael... and they could hold off the Seanchan easily,

 

The only real problem is the Seanchan are organised and they are singular. Randland's kingdoms are fairly scattered, but they are by no means defenceless against the Seanchan, Just a matter of all the channelers working together.

 

If you think its so hard to see how, merely think about Rands efforts to stop them... he ruined them several times and then kinda shot himself in the foot with Callandor, but he and the Asha'man defeated them soundly and held them off. thats without any circles, angraels or sa'angraels and without the wise ones, windfinders or Aes Sedai.

 

Damane suffer from the fact that they are weapons, they have almost no finesse, they cannot link and they are at the whims of people who do not trust them. Females cannot detect a man that can channel. (discounting those who read the residue or use special weaves to detect a man channeling)

 

Hell the Asha'man alone could just make some crazy suicide warriors who just remake mini dragonmounts at the location of every damane kennel...

 

The seanchan are superbly vulnerable, utterly and completely so, its merely the rules that the Aes Sedai place on themselves which makes them so weak, as for the Windfinders and Wise Ones, they too had similar restrictions against fighting.

 

But times change, if they are that much of a threat, they can be defeated it merely takes some creative strategy and a lot of planning in order to destroy almost the entire infrastructure in advance so that they are so weakened they either sue for peace or surrender. fighting them in a war of attrition is foolish and why the Aiel lost.

[thisguy]

Some powerful channelers can just stay on ships and blast the seanchan ones before the seanchan can blast them - with the aid of terangreals.

[Luckers]

Luckers, I've been deeply curious for some time - do you know for **sure** that most of the sequence with Avi in The Way Forward Machine was mainly written by Brandon Sanderson?

 

One reason I ask - and this just shows how longtime readers can see things differently - is the fact that I actually thought that section represented some of Mr Sanderson's best WOT writing to date.

 

 

Fish

 

He did write them, and was grateful for the positive response because of that.

 

I thought Avi's rings vision felt very RJ...I havent read them in some time but that is the memory I am left with...Sorry, I have nothing to contribute to the actual topic...

 

I don't feel that they 'felt RJ'. I do agree that they were amongst the best written parts of the books Brandon's worked on, and did enjoy them, but they lack RJ's cinematic writing, and too the character-work and dialogue was very 'Brandon'--crafted to the point of the plot.

 

Exactly how much leeway does BS have as far as plot elements are concerned?

 

Brandon stated that he was given full creative freedom--up to and including, going against what the notes say--we know for instance that one example of this is Egwene's dinner with Elaida, which was noted to result in the final confrontation in the first meeting, and see Egwene into a cell. Brandon opted not to do that, believing that Egwene needed more time to earn the victory (which I agreed with) afterwhich he essentially repeated what RJ had already done in KoD, but blunter (which I dd not).

 

More commonly, it was as Sid laid out--the notes had holes he had to feel, or had one line to cover an entire chapters worth of events, or were ambiguos, saying 'maybe I will do this, or maybe I will do this other completely opposite thing' and Brandon had to pick one or the other or maybe a third thing entirely. We know, for instance, that Nynaeve's testing for the Shawl was entirely Brandon--from conceptualisation to specifics--if that shows the degree of creative freedom he had. He was able to suggest entire scenario's that weren't noted, ones that weren't even strictly necessary--for instance, another example he gave me, is that he suggested at one time that Perrin take up the Way of the Leaf. Harriet decided no to that, but it does clearly show the degree and scope of his creative freedom--and too the degree of room the notes left open to be filled.

 

However, all that being said we do know that Harriet has an influence as well, as--for one thing--Brandon stated that he planned a scene in book for the Asmodean reveal and was over-ruled by Harriet who wanted it in the Glossary, with only allusions to it in the text.

 

How detailed are RJ's notes?

 

In places, very, in others, not so much, in others still, not at all.

 

Is it BS who's repeating events, or RJ?

 

Brandon. He addmited as much in regards to Perrin and the 'saidin is clean, how marvelous' conversation, and the wind scene from chapter one with the Rand and Perrin catch up is his writing to the core. Beyond that, Brandon's style is to re-hash old information for motivational purposes. Earlier in the year Brandon asked me to send him a critique email which ended up being about 11,000 word long... here's the paragraph I wrote him on this.

 

Rehashing the Plot For Motivational Purposes

 

I’ve seen this brought up time and again almost since the day tGS chapter one was revealed by Tor (which was prior to the prologue). The simplest form of it, which also the most complained about, is the way characters (in particular the mains—Rand, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, etc) think about their past, then tying those thoughts to rationalisation and action in a clearly laid out form. ‘This, this and this happened, therefore I will do or say this’.

 

It may seem like a small issue, but it isn’t. People have offered various rationale’s from it being a result of your meticulous study of each characters histories and motivations—and I could see how such a study would lead to an overt display of such things, especially with the limited time frame you’ve been forced to work on by fan demand for speedy delivery—to the less nice concept that it is an appeal to cannon to insert legitimacy in much the same way many fan fiction writers do—which to be clear I do not believe (as you do this in your own books too), but which people will think given your writing in someone else’s world—one of the unfortunate realities, you might say.

 

Whatever caused it, the general feeling is that it’s boring. Its rehashing plot we’ve already seen without need, and ultimately I think you need to learn to trust your readers—not the least of which being because cutting it would leave considerable space in each book which could have been used to square off a great many of the timeline issues.

 

The other way in which this occurs relates to his methodology, and how he writes his first draft, which is to say that he likes to get words down on a page (slap words down on a page, I believe he said at one point). Here's his own description, from the Fantasy Faction interview....

 

My first pass through is...I'm laying down character, dialogue, and plot. I'm not doing description. And in a lot of cases, I'm not doing—for instance, I'm doing a lot of telling rather than showing, because I'm getting on the page what needs to happen. And then I need to go back and take out huge chunks of, you know, people standing up and monologuing.

 

He goes on further about how his revisions smooth this over--adding smooth prose and so forth--but of course, as we all know, they do not. Partially because fan demand for quick release has rewarded Brandon's high speed first draft and limited revision work in the past--in particular with tGS, which is why it only got worse with TofM, partly because the combination of fan gratification (say, in how we finally got to see that uppity Cadsuane told her place) and plot gratification (we finally got to know what happens).

 

But yes, this style of first draft--getting on the page what needs to happen--is the core fault for most of Brandon's failures--it is what leads to the strict nearly-caricature charicarisations, the clunky, blunt dialogue, the lowest common-denominator-plotwork--and yes, the repitition of thing that have already happened.

 

I said to Brandon, in a recent email, that I feared that writing WoT had taught him all the wrong lessons. Speed over quality, blunt detail over subtlety, cartharsis for the fans, over actual character work--all these things have been rewarded by the Wheel fans because we have all waited such a long time for the finish of the series, and none of these things will stand the test of time.

 

Of course, he reassures himself that the 'casal fans' who make up the vast majority of his readership still adore his work. I personally doubt that any fan whose stuck with a fourteen book series can be called 'casual', and that over time they too will see the flaws present, and come to similar conclusions as the 'hard core fans who go through the books with a fine-tooth comb'... it's just it'll take a little longer, because they'll do it casually.

 

Did the notes say 'Show what will happen to the Aiel if .. but the details are up to you'?

 

Dunno. Brandon just said that those chapters were predominantly him.

[Sid]

I seriously hope he takes your advice, Luckers. You have my grattitude if your constructive criticisms make AMoL even a little better. If nothing else, at least he's open to what fans have to say, and it appears they're trying to do the best job they can. I agree that Team Jordan has to give readers more credit than they have in the last two books. We didn't suddenly become forgetful in 2009, or **word edited so as to not offend people** that can't connect relevant past events to the present goings-on. We've been reading and buying these things for decades now. We get it. People new to the series will still have to read through eleven books where they don't get lots of reminders, and they won't even have to endure the years of waiting beween books...

 

I'm almost sure AMoL will be the best of the last 3, but I really hope it's 'best enough'.

[Luckers]

I seriously hope he takes your advice, Luckers. You have my grattitude if your constructive criticisms make AMoL even a little better. If nothing else, at least he's open to what fans have to say, and it appears they're trying to do the best job they can. I agree that Team Jordan has to give readers more credit than they have in the last two books. We didn't suddenly become forgetful in 2009, or **word edited so as to not offend people** that can't connect relevant past events to the present goings-on. We've been reading and buying these things for decades now. We get it. People new to the series will still have to read through eleven books where they don't get lots of reminders, and they won't even have to endure the years of waiting beween books...

 

I'm almost sure AMoL will be the best of the last 3, but I really hope it's 'best enough'.

 

I don't think he has--I suspect it was more of a sop, to keep me placated after the twitter flare up Peter had with Terez, when I caught them over-exposed using the lack of criticism as support that they had done a good job. He never responded to that email, and though Peter told me that Brandon told him that he'd seen it, I've seen clear signs that he hadn't read it--we even discussed an element of it when we met in Melbourne and it was painfully obvious that he had not (in the sense that he attempted to explain something to me that I told him in the email I already knew the full truth about), and I was too polite to make a point of it. And, as Brandon himself has said, he keeps himself clear of negative criticism. I think Peter hacks most of it out before it comes near him--certainly the oft repeated 'Mat is the only character I did wrong as per fan criticism' suggests as much.

 

In any case, Brandon is 'moving on' from the Wheel, and it's all in Harriet's hands now--which I think is wrong, as much of what was wrong with tofm and tGS were things that an author, not an editor, needs to fix, but meh. I tried. And who knows, maybe Brandon was right, this time around. Maybe he had fixed his own problems and Harriets demands for more time truly weren't necessary--the early excerpts don't give me great hope, but it's possible.

[Sid]

Well, that's shitty. I take back some of the things I said then.

 

guess we'll just have to hope for the best.

[Suttree]

Luckers, I've been deeply curious for some time - do you know for **sure** that most of the sequence with Avi in The Way Forward Machine was mainly written by Brandon Sanderson?

 

One reason I ask - and this just shows how longtime readers can see things differently - is the fact that I actually thought that section represented some of Mr Sanderson's best WOT writing to date.

 

 

Fish

 

He did write them, and was grateful for the positive response because of that.

 

I thought Avi's rings vision felt very RJ...I havent read them in some time but that is the memory I am left with...Sorry, I have nothing to contribute to the actual topic...

 

I don't feel that they 'felt RJ'. I do agree that they were amongst the best written parts of the books Brandon's worked on, and did enjoy them, but they lack RJ's cinematic writing, and too the character-work and dialogue was very 'Brandon'--crafted to the point of the plot.

 

Exactly how much leeway does BS have as far as plot elements are concerned?

 

Brandon stated that he was given full creative freedom--up to and including, going against what the notes say--we know for instance that one example of this is Egwene's dinner with Elaida, which was noted to result in the final confrontation in the first meeting, and see Egwene into a cell. Brandon opted not to do that, believing that Egwene needed more time to earn the victory (which I agreed with) afterwhich he essentially repeated what RJ had already done in KoD, but blunter (which I dd not).

 

More commonly, it was as Sid laid out--the notes had holes he had to feel, or had one line to cover an entire chapters worth of events, or were ambiguos, saying 'maybe I will do this, or maybe I will do this other completely opposite thing' and Brandon had to pick one or the other or maybe a third thing entirely. We know, for instance, that Nynaeve's testing for the Shawl was entirely Brandon--from conceptualisation to specifics--if that shows the degree of creative freedom he had. He was able to suggest entire scenario's that weren't noted, ones that weren't even strictly necessary--for instance, another example he gave me, is that he suggested at one time that Perrin take up the Way of the Leaf. Harriet decided no to that, but it does clearly show the degree and scope of his creative freedom--and too the degree of room the notes left open to be filled.

 

However, all that being said we do know that Harriet has an influence as well, as--for one thing--Brandon stated that he planned a scene in book for the Asmodean reveal and was over-ruled by Harriet who wanted it in the Glossary, with only allusions to it in the text.

 

How detailed are RJ's notes?

 

In places, very, in others, not so much, in others still, not at all.

 

Is it BS who's repeating events, or RJ?

 

Brandon. He addmited as much in regards to Perrin and the 'saidin is clean, how marvelous' conversation, and the wind scene from chapter one with the Rand and Perrin catch up is his writing to the core. Beyond that, Brandon's style is to re-hash old information for motivational purposes. Earlier in the year Brandon asked me to send him a critique email which ended up being about 11,000 word long... here's the paragraph I wrote him on this.

 

Rehashing the Plot For Motivational Purposes

 

I’ve seen this brought up time and again almost since the day tGS chapter one was revealed by Tor (which was prior to the prologue). The simplest form of it, which also the most complained about, is the way characters (in particular the mains—Rand, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, etc) think about their past, then tying those thoughts to rationalisation and action in a clearly laid out form. ‘This, this and this happened, therefore I will do or say this’.

 

It may seem like a small issue, but it isn’t. People have offered various rationale’s from it being a result of your meticulous study of each characters histories and motivations—and I could see how such a study would lead to an overt display of such things, especially with the limited time frame you’ve been forced to work on by fan demand for speedy delivery—to the less nice concept that it is an appeal to cannon to insert legitimacy in much the same way many fan fiction writers do—which to be clear I do not believe (as you do this in your own books too), but which people will think given your writing in someone else’s world—one of the unfortunate realities, you might say.

 

Whatever caused it, the general feeling is that it’s boring. Its rehashing plot we’ve already seen without need, and ultimately I think you need to learn to trust your readers—not the least of which being because cutting it would leave considerable space in each book which could have been used to square off a great many of the timeline issues.

 

The other way in which this occurs relates to his methodology, and how he writes his first draft, which is to say that he likes to get words down on a page (slap words down on a page, I believe he said at one point). Here's his own description, from the Fantasy Faction interview....

 

My first pass through is...I'm laying down character, dialogue, and plot. I'm not doing description. And in a lot of cases, I'm not doing—for instance, I'm doing a lot of telling rather than showing, because I'm getting on the page what needs to happen. And then I need to go back and take out huge chunks of, you know, people standing up and monologuing.

 

He goes on further about how his revisions smooth this over--adding smooth prose and so forth--but of course, as we all know, they do not. Partially because fan demand for quick release has rewarded Brandon's high speed first draft and limited revision work in the past--in particular with tGS, which is why it only got worse with TofM, partly because the combination of fan gratification (say, in how we finally got to see that uppity Cadsuane told her place) and plot gratification (we finally got to know what happens).

 

But yes, this style of first draft--getting on the page what needs to happen--is the core fault for most of Brandon's failures--it is what leads to the strict nearly-caricature charicarisations, the clunky, blunt dialogue, the lowest common-denominator-plotwork--and yes, the repitition of thing that have already happened.

 

I said to Brandon, in a recent email, that I feared that writing WoT had taught him all the wrong lessons. Speed over quality, blunt detail over subtlety, cartharsis for the fans, over actual character work--all these things have been rewarded by the Wheel fans because we have all waited such a long time for the finish of the series, and none of these things will stand the test of time.

 

Of course, he reassures himself that the 'casal fans' who make up the vast majority of his readership still adore his work. I personally doubt that any fan whose stuck with a fourteen book series can be called 'casual', and that over time they too will see the flaws present, and come to similar conclusions as the 'hard core fans who go through the books with a fine-tooth comb'... it's just it'll take a little longer, because they'll do it casually.

 

Did the notes say 'Show what will happen to the Aiel if .. but the details are up to you'?

 

Dunno. Brandon just said that those chapters were predominantly him.

 

Well seeing as you shared that paragraph publicly I feel it is ok to comment on it now. One of my greatest complaints(and one that I have seen oft repeated) is that Brandon doesn't put faith in his readers. He constantly feels the need for characters to announce their intentions and spell out internal thoughts in excruciating detail. It is a very frustrating trait and when combined with the blunt plot work and unpolished prose makes it somewhat difficult to get through TGS and ToM more than a couple times. I have often wondered if he feels the need to hold his readers hands or if it is more a matter of skill and simply a crutch he uses?

 

Once the thrill of of having new WoT material wears off the writing is flat out painful in places. We have seen a fairly sizable shift in perception after near universal praise upon release. The issues are simply too large for people not to recognize when going back through a series that is read as many times over as the WoT. It's like the reverse of constantly finding new twists, foreshadowing, clever turns of phrase, and epic scenes you can read a thousand times in RJ's work. These books should never have been produced at the pace they were put out once the split was announced and it really is a shame that we now have two installments in this series with almost zero "rereadibility". Often I will be clipping along at a decent pace only to get jarred right out of the frame. The level of immersion possible in RJ's work is quite frankly not present in large sections of the last two books.

 

You and I have discussed this topic in the past but it is some what maddening the blind eye that is turned to rational complaints being raised. What's worse is the pointing to lack of criticism as validation which comes off as extremely disingenuous. His growth as an author IMO has stalled out after the initial promise of the first Mistborn book. It very well could be for many of the reasons relating to the WoT that you mention above. I am holding out hope(maybe irrationally so) that the extra time spent in revisions will make AMoL the best of the bunch. Hopefully the changes in the process serve to make that reality. This is the final book upon which RJ's life's work will be judged and as Team Jordan has claimed it's imperative that they get AMoL "right". The scary part is my faith has been sorely shaken in those responsible for making that happen.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks for the confirmation, LuX!

 

 

Fish

[Luckers]

Well seeing as you shared that paragraph publicly I feel it is ok to comment on it now.

 

I've considered making the whole thing public, but I'm not sure whether it would help or hinder.