Seanchan and the AoL

[Suttree]

And, I looked at one page and found two people who agree with me: Knivy and Morden. Until you're kicked out of the Tower, your AS. So there.

 

Good work, tip of the cap.

[thisguy]

And, I looked at one page and found two people who agree with me: Knivy and Morden. Until you're kicked out of the Tower, your AS. So there.

 

Good work. Tip of the cap.

Yeah, I just found another: Meltdown. Anyway, under most courts, if not all, you could sue the organization for the actions of its members while they are working for that organization.

Now, you can say that you are arguing that on a personal level they are no longer AS. I'd probably agree. But, in terms of whether they are AS as far as the world and the Tower are concerned, the book speaks for itself. Egwene sees the need to weed them out as soon as she is able. She understands that they are her responsibility as Amyrlin. It could be argued that they are her greatest responsibility. If they weren't AS, they wouldn't be able to hold office as Keeper or Sitter or Ajah head and many do.

[Suttree]

And, I looked at one page and found two people who agree with me: Knivy and Morden. Until you're kicked out of the Tower, your AS. So there.

 

Good work. Tip of the cap.

Yeah, I just found another: Meltdown. Anyway, under most courts, if not all, you could sue the organization for the actions of its members while they are working for that organization.

Now, you can say that you are arguing that on a personal level they are no longer AS. I'd probably agree. But, in terms of whether they are AS as far as the world and the Tower are concerned, the book speaks for itself. Egwene sees the need to weed them out as soon as she is able. She understands that they are her responsibility as Amyrlin. It could be argued that they are her greatest responsibility. If they weren't AS, they wouldn't be able to hold office as Keeper or Sitter or Ajah head and many do.

 

They obviously would not be able to hold office as BA if it was known what they were and further of course the WT doesn't consider BA as AS that goes without saying. They stop being AS the second they swear to the DO not only to themsleves but to the WT as a whole if it was known what they were. Again as was said by Mr Ares

 

"If one commits a crime, one is a criminal from the time the crime is committed, not from the time one is convicted. Even if one is never convicted, never even suspected, one is still a criminal. When an AS is stripped of stole and staff, that is when she is formally acknowledged as no longer being part of the order. It doesn't mean that she did not forfeit the right to call herself AS before then, even if she did so unbeknownst to the AS order." That is why they are "cast out and scorned".

 

Regardless lets just call it quits ok. Again nothing new is being discussed. Thank you for the debate.

[thisguy]

And, I looked at one page and found two people who agree with me: Knivy and Morden. Until you're kicked out of the Tower, your AS. So there.

 

Good work. Tip of the cap.

Yeah, I just found another: Meltdown. Anyway, under most courts, if not all, you could sue the organization for the actions of its members while they are working for that organization.

Now, you can say that you are arguing that on a personal level they are no longer AS. I'd probably agree. But, in terms of whether they are AS as far as the world and the Tower are concerned, the book speaks for itself. Egwene sees the need to weed them out as soon as she is able. She understands that they are her responsibility as Amyrlin. It could be argued that they are her greatest responsibility. If they weren't AS, they wouldn't be able to hold office as Keeper or Sitter or Ajah head and many do.

 

They obviously would not be able to hold office as BA if it was known what they were and further of course the WT doesn't consider BA as AS that goes without saying. They stop being AS the second they swear to the DO not only to themsleves but to the WT as a whole if it was known what they were. Again as was said by Mr Ares

 

"If one commits a crime, one is a criminal from the time the crime is committed, not from the time one is convicted. Even if one is never convicted, never even suspected, one is still a criminal. When an AS is stripped of stole and staff, that is when she is formally acknowledged as no longer being part of the order. It doesn't mean that she did not forfeit the right to call herself AS before then, even if she did so unbeknownst to the AS order." That is why they are "cast out and scorned".

 

Regardless lets just call it quits ok. Again nothing new is being discussed. Thank you for the debate.

Yes, and a Senator who was known to be a traitor wouldn't be Senator. But, people get away for their entire lives sometimes breaking the law and get to keep their jobs. It doesn't matter what would happen, it matters what does happen. If it rained enough my crops wouldn't die.. it didn't rain, they are dead. Obviously, there are members of the BA who have lived their entire lives as AS. That means, they are AS. If I play for the Yankees but really would rather be a Met, I'm still a Yankee, unless I quit or get kicked out. What you are talking about is a matter of principle, not reality.

 

A corrupt cop is a cop. A corrupt Judge is a judge. A corrupt CIA agent is a CIA agent. ETC. They get paid, they get the badge and the honors. A CEO embezzling money is still the CEO until caught and fired.

 

If you'd like to stop discussing this, I'm fine with that.

[shortkut]

i'm skipping like a million posts since sutt linked me to a post and it is too much to go through on my phone

 

I feel the BA has to still count as AS until they are discovered because they still get to enjoy the benefits of being AS during their subterfuge. Convicted felons cannot vote. Key word is convicted. they are not punished until they are caught and convicted. Eggy was able to invalidate the the BA votes retroactively only because anyone who disagreed with her would be supporting the BA. there was no existing rule about it. she made it up then and there.

[Maleshub]

After quickly skimming through yesterday's marathon posts, a few comments ...

 

Well, pre-Eggy their actions encouraged the existence of the BA. The way they encouraged secrecy, wouldn't delve too deep into it's members doings, refused to even admit the BA could exist. Those are HUGE ways to encourage evil. Why do you think the Military and police forces keep careful tabs on it's members? Because they know they're responsible for their actions.

 

A few points to consider here:

- We do not have access to the 13th Depository where secret records are kept. Records of AS rebellions, assassinations, executions, etc. And so, we cannot claim that the WT never tried to counter the BA in the 2000 years since it was first founded in during the Trolloc Wars (that went on for over 300 years).

- The WT did not admit publicly the existence of the BA; but New Spring gives evidence that some AS knew of its existence and tried to fight a secret war against it.

- The 3 Oaths gave AS a false sense of security. They were ignorant to the fact that the Oaths could be removed. And that allowed the BA to continue to grow in secret.

 

Pre-This year (book time)

 

How many BA sisters were found and excuted? None that I can think of...

 

If you want BA killed, we have Merean in New Spring. And in a totally unrelated event, Ishmael killed the Head of the BA when her actions endangered the organization and made it susceptible to exposure.

 

Again, we do not have the secret records of the WT where such knowledge would be recorded.

 

If a police officer commits a crime, the police force may be sued. why? Because they are responsible. It is the same here. That's actually one of the main reasons the AS haven't faced the problem, it would destroy their legitimacy and power in the world.

 

AS thought that admitting the BA would destroy their standing. And that was part of the flaw in their thinking. But in the end, the Great Purge did not reduce the WT's standing in the world; it increased it and rehabilitated it.

 

======================

 

In general, the WT's responsibility towards cleaning its ranks from traitors is a different issue from the BA's classification and loyalty. Like Ares stated above, a traitor becomes a traitor right away when the decision is made to betray, not when convicted of treason. That doesn't absolve the mother organization of its responsibility to catch and neutralize that traitor; but at the same time the traitor's actions are his/her own responsibility.

[MasterAblar]

AS thought that admitting the BA would destroy their standing. And that was part of the flaw in their thinking. But in the end, the Great Purge did not reduce the WT's standing in the world; it increased it and rehabilitated it.

 

Well, the world has not yet learned the extent to which the shadow had infiltrated the tower, so it's hard to say at this point how their reputation will be affected. We'll have a better idea of that when the Black Ajah start fighting the Light openly, and are witnessed doing so. I'll be suprised if no one at all mentions that a good fifth (according to Linda at the 13th depository) of the supposed Aes Sedai are fighting for the other side.

[thisguy]

After quickly skimming through yesterday's marathon posts, a few comments ...

 

Well, pre-Eggy their actions encouraged the existence of the BA. The way they encouraged secrecy, wouldn't delve too deep into it's members doings, refused to even admit the BA could exist. Those are HUGE ways to encourage evil. Why do you think the Military and police forces keep careful tabs on it's members? Because they know they're responsible for their actions.

 

A few points to consider here:

- We do not have access to the 13th Depository where secret records are kept. Records of AS rebellions, assassinations, executions, etc. And so, we cannot claim that the WT never tried to counter the BA in the 2000 years since it was first founded in during the Trolloc Wars (that went on for over 300 years).

- The WT did not admit publicly the existence of the BA; but New Spring gives evidence that some AS knew of its existence and tried to fight a secret war against it.

- The 3 Oaths gave AS a false sense of security. They were ignorant to the fact that the Oaths could be removed. And that allowed the BA to continue to grow in secret.

 

Pre-This year (book time)

 

How many BA sisters were found and excuted? None that I can think of...

 

If you want BA killed, we have Merean in New Spring. And in a totally unrelated event, Ishmael killed the Head of the BA when her actions endangered the organization and made it susceptible to exposure.

 

Again, we do not have the secret records of the WT where such knowledge would be recorded.

 

If a police officer commits a crime, the police force may be sued. why? Because they are responsible. It is the same here. That's actually one of the main reasons the AS haven't faced the problem, it would destroy their legitimacy and power in the world.

 

AS thought that admitting the BA would destroy their standing. And that was part of the flaw in their thinking. But in the end, the Great Purge did not reduce the WT's standing in the world; it increased it and rehabilitated it.

 

======================

 

In general, the WT's responsibility towards cleaning its ranks from traitors is a different issue from the BA's classification and loyalty. Like Ares stated above, a traitor becomes a traitor right away when the decision is made to betray, not when convicted of treason. That doesn't absolve the mother organization of its responsibility to catch and neutralize that traitor; but at the same time the traitor's actions are his/her own responsibility.

A traitor who is not found out still keeps whatever rank he or she had. More importantly, you said it, the mother organization is not absolved of its responsibility. That's the whole point. If they do not even attempt to find the BA and at least denounce them they have not taken responsibility. Until Egwene, very little responsibility is taken by the Tower. So far, only one AS has been shown, until Siuane Sanche to take any responsibility, and she is not an officer of the tower.

[Suttree]

[so far, only one AS has been shown, until Siuane Sanche to take any responsibility, and she is not an officer of the tower.

 

Cads and the BA hunters to name a number of others.

 

As for Verin she is a truly great AS.

 

Edit: Also your point wasnt that the AS is responsible for rooting then out was it? No one has disputed that. You said they are to blame for the actions of Forsaken and BA.

[Maleshub]

Well, the world has not yet learned the extent to which the shadow had infiltrated the tower, so it's hard to say at this point how their reputation will be affected. We'll have a better idea of that when the Black Ajah start fighting the Light openly, and are witnessed doing so. I'll be suprised if no one at all mentions that a good fifth (according to Linda at the 13th depository) of the supposed Aes Sedai are fighting for the other side.

 

True, we haven't seen the full fallout of the BA on the WT. But the number of Aes Sedai that will be fighting for the Shadow are in the 50's. I recall a quote where Aes Sedai say that about 70 BA fled the rebel camp and WT. With nearly 20 killed in the Mesaana TAR battle, the remainder should be in the 50's.

 

A traitor who is not found out still keeps whatever rank he or she had. More importantly, you said it, the mother organization is not absolved of its responsibility. That's the whole point. If they do not even attempt to find the BA and at least denounce them they have not taken responsibility. Until Egwene, very little responsibility is taken by the Tower. So far, only one AS has been shown, until Siuane Sanche to take any responsibility, and she is not an officer of the tower.

 

One point I tried to convey is that we cannot ascertain that there were no efforts to purge the BA in the 2000 years since it was formed. The secret records would hold such details. And the organizational structure of the cells does not allow the organization to be brought down if a single member is uncovered. See how far the WT BA hunters went along in their search. They tried; but in the end, they didn't succeed despite having a very good way of uncovering the traitors.

[MasterAblar]

True, we haven't seen the full fallout of the BA on the WT. But the number of Aes Sedai that will be fighting for the Shadow are in the 50's. I recall a quote where Aes Sedai say that about 70 BA fled the rebel camp and WT. With nearly 20 killed in the Mesaana TAR battle, the remainder should be in the 50's.

 

There were around 200 black ajah identified by Verin, and she missed 3 with rebels and 3 with the Tower. There are also all the Aes Sedai who stayed out of the conflict to be accounted for, so the number of blacks is probably between 210 and 220. The total number of blacks alive by the end of ToM is probably a little under 150. Egwene got over 50 of them in the rebels came, a few in the WT, and then however many were killed in TAR. However there are also Aes Sedai being turned at the BT, and while they are not black ajah the will certainly be percieved as such by the general population.

[thisguy]

Well, the world has not yet learned the extent to which the shadow had infiltrated the tower, so it's hard to say at this point how their reputation will be affected. We'll have a better idea of that when the Black Ajah start fighting the Light openly, and are witnessed doing so. I'll be suprised if no one at all mentions that a good fifth (according to Linda at the 13th depository) of the supposed Aes Sedai are fighting for the other side.

 

True, we haven't seen the full fallout of the BA on the WT. But the number of Aes Sedai that will be fighting for the Shadow are in the 50's. I recall a quote where Aes Sedai say that about 70 BA fled the rebel camp and WT. With nearly 20 killed in the Mesaana TAR battle, the remainder should be in the 50's.

 

A traitor who is not found out still keeps whatever rank he or she had. More importantly, you said it, the mother organization is not absolved of its responsibility. That's the whole point. If they do not even attempt to find the BA and at least denounce them they have not taken responsibility. Until Egwene, very little responsibility is taken by the Tower. So far, only one AS has been shown, until Siuane Sanche to take any responsibility, and she is not an officer of the tower.

 

One point I tried to convey is that we cannot ascertain that there were no efforts to purge the BA in the 2000 years since it was formed. The secret records would hold such details. And the organizational structure of the cells does not allow the organization to be brought down if a single member is uncovered. See how far the WT BA hunters went along in their search. They tried; but in the end, they didn't succeed despite having a very good way of uncovering the traitors.

That's a good point. We have no idea. But, we do know that there were AS who thought they existed at least as far back as New Spring and nothing (that we know) had been done about it until Siuane Sanche by the Officers of the Tower - no Ajah Head, Sitter, Keeper, Amyrlin.

[thisguy]

[so far, only one AS has been shown, until Siuane Sanche to take any responsibility, and she is not an officer of the tower.

 

Cads and the BA hunters to name a number of others.

 

As for Verin she is a truly great AS.

 

Edit: Also your point wasnt that the AS is responsible for rooting then out was it? No one has disputed that. You said they are to blame for the actions of Forsaken and BA.

I did say the AS are responsible for their actions. Those Forsaken who outwardly quit the old school AS - I guess not. However, there's a quote in LoC where Rand is thinking LTT's thoughts. He mentions how Demandred did horrible things to two cities before going over to the Dark Side. That is their fault, in my opinion.

 

I've also said at least 3 times (probably more) that if the Tower had taken some responsibility and tried to do something, there would be an argument. But, they did not. Nothing. And, yes, I believe that an organization is responsible for the actions of its members, especially ones who are basically walking bombs.

 

Edit to Add: I actually think that Verin is a great AS. She's one of my favorites. However, that means that the oaths are not the be all end all to being an AS.

[MasterAblar]

I did say the AS are responsible for their actions. Those Forsaken who outwardly quit the old school AS - I guess not. However, there's a quote in LoC where Rand is thinking LTT's thoughts. He mentions how Demandred did horrible things to two cities before going over to the Dark Side. That is their fault, in my opinion.

 

He did it afterwards actually. Fed them all to trollocs because he felt they had slighted him in the past.

[thisguy]

I did say the AS are responsible for their actions. Those Forsaken who outwardly quit the old school AS - I guess not. However, there's a quote in LoC where Rand is thinking LTT's thoughts. He mentions how Demandred did horrible things to two cities before going over to the Dark Side. That is their fault, in my opinion.

 

He did it afterwards actually. Fed them all to trollocs because he felt they had slighted him in the past.

"-but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the shadow..."

 

Rereading, I see what you are saying.

[Suttree]

I think actually I have misconstrued your meaning. I know now that you are saying they have been a mixed bag but when I saw this quote originally...

 

The AS dug up the DO, the AS broke the world, the AS created trollocs and the other nasties, the AS are the Forsaken. They are just as good as they are bad. They fight amongst each other as much as the Forsaken do. I don't agree with them not counting.

 

I took that to mean that you thought the AS have done as much bad(if not more) than good.

 

Per Moiraine we know that...

 

TFOH 15, "What Can Be Learned From Dreams"

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

 

The only way the balance could even come remotely close to approaching more bad than good is if you hold them to blame for the actions of Forsaken and BA as if they were working for the WT when that is simply not reality. AS pulled the world out of the breaking, they saved the world in the Trolloc Wars, they have been the sole reason the world even remembers they have to fight TG. You yourself admit that...

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

So I ask you. Are you defined but what people falsely think you are instead of what you personally know yourself to truly be? No, of course not. They are AS in name only, not in spirit. Even further the oaths you have sworn to the shadow are binding and supersede all others if you truly serve the DO. BA can masquerade at being AS all they want, but they ceased to truly be so the second they swore themselves to the shadow and turned away from the light. When balancing the ledger you can not subtract their actions in judging the good the WT, with their implicit mandate to serve the light, has done. AS have many faults and their culture has failed, but if you serve the Shadow and have sworn yourself to a new organization, you are no longer AS.

[thisguy]

I think actually I have misconstrued your meaning. I know now that you are saying they have been a mixed bag but when I saw this quote originally...

 

The AS dug up the DO, the AS broke the world, the AS created trollocs and the other nasties, the AS are the Forsaken. They are just as good as they are bad. They fight amongst each other as much as the Forsaken do. I don't agree with them not counting.

 

I took that to mean that you thought the AS have done as much bad(if not more) than good.

 

Per Moiraine we know that...

 

TFOH 15, "What Can Be Learned From Dreams"

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

 

The only way the balance could even come remotely close to approaching more bad than good is if you hold them to blame for the actions of Forsaken and BA as if they were working for the WT when that is simply not reality. AS pulled the world out of the breaking, they saved the world in the Trolloc Wars, they have been the sole reason the world even remembers they have to fight TG. You yourself admit that...

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

So I ask you. Are you defined but what people falsely think you are instead of what you personally know yourself to truly be? No, of course not. They are AS in name only, not in spirit. Even further the oaths you have sworn to the shadow are binding and supersede all others if you truly serve the DO. BA can masquerade at being AS all they want, but they ceased to truly be so the second they swore themselves to the shadow and turned away from the light. When balancing the ledger you can not subtract their actions in judging the good the WT, with their implicit mandate to serve the light, has done. AS have many faults and their culture has failed, but if you serve the Shadow and have sworn yourself to a new organization, you are no longer AS.

Yes. I get what you're saying. A cop who does more bad than good - a cop who takes bribes, helps gangsters, robs and steals, kills outside of a lawful reason to kill is still a cop until the badge is taken away. He can lawfully arrest you, pull you over, basically do all cop stuff. He's still a cop.

 

The same with BA AS. If they go to the Borderlands they'll be treated as honored guests. If a more powerful BA AS finds a weaker AS, she can order her about. She's an AS. This is exactly why the Tower is responsible for these people. They've granted them power they do not deserve. If the Tower does not even try to put a stop to this (which they didn't for quite some time) they are enabling the worst kind of criminal.

 

 

As for what Moiraine said, she also told Rand in her last letter not to trust the AS... would she have told him that to begin with when they already mistrusted her? No. She needed his trust. She told him the truth but not all of it. Later, before she thought she was going to die, she wrote him and told him more of the truth. Don't trust them.

 

Look at the Three Oaths, not one oath swearing to defend the light. Don't you find that odd? I think RJ did this purposely. You're supposed to not know if you can trust the AS or not. There are very few AS that don't have something fishy about them - that we get to know somewhat. They even hide their knowledge of the OP from each other. Don't you find that odd?

[Vardar]

After quickly skimming through yesterday's marathon posts, a few comments ...

 

Well, pre-Eggy their actions encouraged the existence of the BA. The way they encouraged secrecy, wouldn't delve too deep into it's members doings, refused to even admit the BA could exist. Those are HUGE ways to encourage evil. Why do you think the Military and police forces keep careful tabs on it's members? Because they know they're responsible for their actions.

 

A few points to consider here:

- We do not have access to the 13th Depository where secret records are kept. Records of AS rebellions, assassinations, executions, etc. And so, we cannot claim that the WT never tried to counter the BA in the 2000 years since it was first founded in during the Trolloc Wars (that went on for over 300 years).

- The WT did not admit publicly the existence of the BA; but New Spring gives evidence that some AS knew of its existence and tried to fight a secret war against it.

- The 3 Oaths gave AS a false sense of security. They were ignorant to the fact that the Oaths could be removed. And that allowed the BA to continue to grow in secret.

 

Pre-This year (book time)

 

How many BA sisters were found and excuted? None that I can think of...

 

If you want BA killed, we have Merean in New Spring. And in a totally unrelated event, Ishmael killed the Head of the BA when her actions endangered the organization and made it susceptible to exposure.

 

Again, we do not have the secret records of the WT where such knowledge would be recorded.

 

If a police officer commits a crime, the police force may be sued. why? Because they are responsible. It is the same here. That's actually one of the main reasons the AS haven't faced the problem, it would destroy their legitimacy and power in the world.

 

AS thought that admitting the BA would destroy their standing. And that was part of the flaw in their thinking. But in the end, the Great Purge did not reduce the WT's standing in the world; it increased it and rehabilitated it.

 

======================

 

In general, the WT's responsibility towards cleaning its ranks from traitors is a different issue from the BA's classification and loyalty. Like Ares stated above, a traitor becomes a traitor right away when the decision is made to betray, not when convicted of treason. That doesn't absolve the mother organization of its responsibility to catch and neutralize that traitor; but at the same time the traitor's actions are his/her own responsibility.

 

1) We don't, but given the multiple statements we've had of even AS saying don't speak of the BA around, this AS or this other AS, we can infer that the official stance of the tower as a whole was there was no AS.

2) Those AS who admitted would be considered Rogue. Not bad Rogue, but going against tower law nonetheless

3) It did, but simple measures like yearly reswearings would go a long way towards fixing things. Hell even if it didn't fix it, it'd show they saw the danger and wanted to do something about it

4) She doesn't count. She wasn't killed because she was BA, nor was she given a trial and killed that way. She was killed in an incident because she was BA yes, but the killing was not justice. No BA was tried and given justice until Eggy came along. Eggy and Suian had access, they never mention it on screen. It's a far stretch to think it would have never come p.

5) Not yet, it might soon actually. The only reason it didn't diminish their standing yet it because they're hiding how corrupt they were. If that knowledge ever got out, they'd be ruined.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I assume quite a few BA members do regard themselves as AS. Sheriam for instance. I have to look for quotes.

[Suttree]

One further point concerning the "bad cop" scenario a couple people keep bringing up. The analogy would only work if there was a secret "evil police" organization actively working to bring about the downfall of all the police work and stand for. It would have to have been created by somone more powerful and all knowing than any police "chief" has ever been with the sole purpose of hindering the work police do and sowing chaos. Further they specifically target police and their existence would have been mostly unknown for thousands of years. There is a separate central command and an ingenious structure where even if you discover one there is no way to find any outside of their cell.

 

You would not ever say that a member of that opposing organization's actions(let alone the one would started it) count againt the good the police are trying to do in the world and their mandate to uphold the peace(fight the shadow). There is no way that a "rogue" cop fits into that scenario. Sure they would look on the surface like police officer but in essence they are not.

 

Now are police responsible for policing their own? Yes of course. Are they to blame for the actions of that opposite organization? Without a doubt the answer is no.

[thisguy]

One further point concerning the "bad cop" scenario a couple people keep bringing up. The analogy would only work if there was a secret "evil police" organization actively working to bring about the downfall of all the police work and stand for. It would have to have been created by somone more powerful and all knowing than any police "chief" has ever been with the sole purpose of hindering the work police do and sowing chaos. Further they specifically target police and their existence would have been mostly unknown for thousands of years. There is a separate central command and an ingenious structure where even if you discover one there is no way to find any outside of their cell.

 

You would not ever say that a member of that opposing organization's actions(let alone the one would started it) count againt the good the police are trying to do in the world and their mandate to uphold the peace(fight the shadow). There is no way that a "rogue" cop fits into that scenario. Sure they would look on the surface like police officer but in essence they are not.

 

Now are police responsible for policing their own? Yes of course. Are they to blame for the actions of that opposite organization? Without a doubt the answer is no.

you ever see serpico? anyway, the DF don't care as much about bringing down the Tower as they do about the DO winning. The tower is just part of that. The analogy holds.

[Suttree]

One further point concerning the "bad cop" scenario a couple people keep bringing up. The analogy would only work if there was a secret "evil police" organization actively working to bring about the downfall of all the police work and stand for. It would have to have been created by somone more powerful and all knowing than any police "chief" has ever been with the sole purpose of hindering the work police do and sowing chaos. Further they specifically target police and their existence would have been mostly unknown for thousands of years. There is a separate central command and an ingenious structure where even if you discover one there is no way to find any outside of their cell.

 

You would not ever say that a member of that opposing organization's actions(let alone the one would started it) count againt the good the police are trying to do in the world and their mandate to uphold the peace(fight the shadow). There is no way that a "rogue" cop fits into that scenario. Sure they would look on the surface like police officer but in essence they are not.

 

Now are police responsible for policing their own? Yes of course. Are they to blame for the actions of that opposite organization? Without a doubt the answer is no.

you ever see serpico? anyway, the DF don't care as much about bringing down the Tower as they do about the DO winning. The tower is just part of that. The analogy holds.

 

Heard about it, never saw it. How does one mans crusade fit with a totally separate evil organization trying to counter the good the WT does?

 

Per Moiraine "The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years" . A big part of the DO winning this war is thwarting the WT. The WT stands against the Shadow and one of IShy's goals in creating the BA in the first place was to neutralize/subvert the good AS do. He says it himself. As the main force of power in Randland there is a very specific reason they were targeted.

[thisguy]

Per Moiraine - don't trust the AS. The AS evolves and devolves just like any other organization. They're nothing like the AS from LTT's time. They don't even trust each other. At all.

 

Nobody's saying that they don't do their share against the shadow (at least, I'm not), they're just far from perfect and have DFs as members. Pretty much like the rest of the world.

[thisguy]

They screwed up so bad at one point that the Seanchan now want them enslaved.

[Suttree]

Per Moiraine - don't trust the AS. The AS evolves and devolves just like any other organization. They're nothing like the AS from LTT's time. They don't even trust each other. At all.

 

The only reason Moir said that is because her and Siuan's search was forced underground. Gitara had the foretelling and the BA immediately started slaughtering Amrylin's and the DR hunters. This exposed their existence for basically the first time. Because of those actions Moir never knew who to trust. It has nothing to do with the normal culture of the WT.

 

Btw who has ever claimed they are perfect. From the start I said there are good, bad and average ones just like the rest of the world. They can not be held to a different standard.

 

Finally you can not judge the pre-unified WT as being the norm for them trusting each other. There was a Forsaken residing in hiding, the BA was forcing Elaida to give false orders sowing chaos, the WT was split and Fain's influence was causing distrust to the point that sisters were being asssaulted by other ajahs. You need to understand all of those things when discussing the current level of trust before Eggy evicted the BA and reunifid the WT.

 

As for your Seanchan comment you lost me? Could you expand on that please?