To Live You Must Die

[TristanWebb]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason, not so some girls can pull out heroes and sex them up. Why not pull out Hawkwing to lead your armies? I am sure there are a dozen soldiers atleast in there who would be as good a general as Mat, why not just pull them all out and have them lead?

 

If he dies before the LB and the world is doomed without him I can forgive it, but if he dies sealing the bore and the DO is done with, there is no reason I can see where ripping him out is justified. It would just be heartbroken girls screwing with the Pattern to make themselves feel better.

[pamela]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

 

I was pondering this option too (i.e. thrusting Callandor into the heart literally, possibly with Alivia's help - I think she's the only person who wouldn't hesitate and fulfill Rand's hardcore will (well, maybe Moiraine too)). But the point is: why Callandor? Could it contain Dragin's soul, due to the lines "the Blade will bind him by twin" and "all that he is can be seized"? It's kinda fantasy inside fantasy and not very probable, but one thing is sure: Callandor will have a big role and I'm deadly curious about that, and whether it will be something dark or just nice and good; whether it involves ultimate defeating of the DO - like I used to think before - or rather using it during the events around Rand's death and resurrection... or both.

[pamela]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason, not so some girls can pull out heroes and sex them up. Why not pull out Hawkwing to lead your armies? I am sure there are a dozen soldiers atleast in there who would be as good a general as Mat, why not just pull them all out and have them lead?

 

If he dies before the LB and the world is doomed without him I can forgive it, but if he dies sealing the bore and the DO is done with, there is no reason I can see where ripping him out is justified. It would just be heartbroken girls screwing with the Pattern to make themselves feel better.

 

Yes, this is what I don't like about the theory. Obviously it's only an option before the LB, but still - why should Rand even agree on being ripped out? He would be kinda retired there. And there would be a draw again, "I won again Lews Therin" (i.e. the world ruled by the Shadow, but not destroyed, as I believe the DO can't win without the Dragon). Unless, like Terez pointed out, this time - this specific turning of the Wheel - there is Slayer in TAR, meant to destroy his soul and thus leading somehow to him being ripped out (and pissed).

[Terez]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason

 

And the Pattern makes it possible for them to be ripped out for a reason.

 

not so some girls can pull out heroes and sex them up. Why not pull out Hawkwing to lead your armies? I am sure there are a dozen soldiers atleast in there who would be as good a general as Mat, why not just pull them all out and have them lead?

 

The Pattern doesn't rip heroes out of Tel'aran'rhiod; people do. Nynaeve and Moghedien are the only ones who know how, and considering the way the Pattern works, that's probably not an accident. Moghedien might abuse it given the chance, but Nynaeve won't.

 

If he dies before the LB and the world is doomed without him I can forgive it, but if he dies sealing the bore and the DO is done with, there is no reason I can see where ripping him out is justified. It would just be heartbroken girls screwing with the Pattern to make themselves feel better.

 

Agreed, but everything points to Rand dying before he's won the Last Battle, hence the need. Or, the Need.

[Mik]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason

 

And the Pattern makes it possible for them to be ripped out for a reason.

Evil people choose to do evil things, yes. Like 'ripping' people from TAR and thereby 'short-circuiting' the Pattern.

That's how the Dragon Reborn nearly lost; by following the examples set by evil and thereby becomming more and more evil himself.

 

Having Nynaeve use an evil act to bring back RJ's Champion of Life before the Last Battle.... Sounds exactly like something RJ would do to the personification of Life and Light. ;) (<--- please note the wink)

 

not so some girls can pull out heroes and sex them up. Why not pull out Hawkwing to lead your armies? I am sure there are a dozen soldiers atleast in there who would be as good a general as Mat, why not just pull them all out and have them lead?

 

The Pattern doesn't rip heroes out of Tel'aran'rhiod; people do. Nynaeve and Moghedien are the only ones who know how, and considering the way the Pattern works, that's probably not an accident. Moghedien might abuse it given the chance, but Nynaeve won't.

Correction; one evil person did; to kill a Hero. And you say Nynaeve won't "abuse it". Erm... how is 'ripping' and 'short-circuting' the fabric of the Pattern not abuse in and by itself??

Not abusing this means Nyneave realizing this is evil and choosing not to use the knowledge, I think. "The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills"... right? Our little spider doesn't much care for that, but you'd think a nice person -and a Healer to boot- might just care about preserving the Pattern instead of ripping Threads from TAR and short circuiting the Pattern.

 

If he dies before the LB and the world is doomed without him I can forgive it, but if he dies sealing the bore and the DO is done with, there is no reason I can see where ripping him out is justified. It would just be heartbroken girls screwing with the Pattern to make themselves feel better.

Agreed, but everything points to Rand dying before he's won the Last Battle, hence the need. Or, the Need.

Exactly what points to Rand dying before the Last Battle? The Dragon is the Champion of Life. Everything points to the Dragon having not died the final death yet. :)

[TristanWebb]

Terez, I know you know more about WoT than me, I just don't have the focus to analyse every sentance for hidden meanings. It just seems to me that serving the Light is working with the Patterm, and serving the Shadow is working for the Pattern's destruction. If Rand dies before the last battle other than by balefire, how can you say that pulling (ripping is such a loaded term so I will refrain from using it) him out of TAR is the right thing to do? He is bound to the Wheel, that has been made obvious. If he is bound to it the same way Hawkwing and the other Heroes called to the Horn are is debatable, but he is surely bound to it.

 

I don't see how you could justify puling him back without permission. And I don't see a Dragonsoul who has lived infinite lives asking to be pulled back. I know you have talked about the foreshadowing of Nyn healing someone 3 days dead, but I can't believe that that means she goes and talks to Rand in TAR for 2 nights before ripping him out.

 

Though, that all hinges on Rand not being aware that in every Thrid Age he dies and then is pulled back I guess.

[Terez]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason

 

And the Pattern makes it possible for them to be ripped out for a reason.

Evil people choose to do evil things, yes.

 

You're making an assumption that it's evil because an evil person chose to use it in an evil way. Fear not, RJ wanted you to make that assumption; that's why most people don't seem to realize that it's the obvious method for Rand's resurrection.

 

Correction; one evil person did; to kill a Hero.

 

And she was not successful, because Elayne figured out how to keep Birgitte alive. Elayne needed to learn that so that she could save Rand when the time came.

 

And you say Nynaeve won't "abuse it". Erm... how is 'ripping' and 'short-circuting' the fabric of the Pattern not abuse in and by itself??

 

There is nothing inherently evil about short-circuiting the Pattern. It's a tool, and the loopholes exist for a reason. That reason probably only comes around once in a Turning.

 

Not abusing this means Nyneave realizing this is evil and choosing not to use the knowledge, I think.

 

I think Nynaeve can tell the difference between something that is evil and something that should not be used except in the direst circumstances, whether or not Mik can tell the difference.

 

"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills"... right? Our little spider doesn't much care for that, but you'd think a nice person -and a Healer to boot- might just care about preserving the Pattern instead of ripping Threads from TAR and short circuiting the Pattern.

 

Short-circuiting the Pattern does not destroy it or inhibit it in any fashion. Birgitte has to suffer the consequences of her own resurrection, because Moghedien used that tool in an evil way. As you said, she tried to kill Birgitte, and failed because of Elayne. Aside from death, the only consequences are that Birgitte was ripped into the world as an adult with past life memories instead of born as a baby a few years later as she should have been. But it's not the end of the world; Min saw that she is still connected to Gaidal Cain. Rand would not even suffer those consequences if he were resurrected immediately; he would simply continue to live his natural life.

 

Exactly what points to Rand dying before the Last Battle?

 

All four prophecies that mention his death, for starters. A long chain of interconnected foreshadowing throughout the series. He has to die because of his connection to the Shadow, which suggests that he can't finish the job properly because of that connection. That further suggests that he has to be resurrected to finish the job. Tons of little details back that up. He'll be dead for three days, and I have a feeling that most of the military action will be during that time period.

 

The Dragon is the Champion of Life. Everything points to the Dragon having not died the final death yet. :)

 

No one said anything about final death.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

[Terez]

Terez, I know you know more about WoT than me, I just don't have the focus to analyse every sentance for hidden meanings.

 

No one expects you to.

 

It just seems to me that serving the Light is working with the Patterm, and serving the Shadow is working for the Pattern's destruction. If Rand dies before the last battle other than by balefire, how can you say that pulling (ripping is such a loaded term so I will refrain from using it) him out of TAR is the right thing to do?

 

How can you say it is wrong? And while it does appear to be against the Pattern's design, that's a really bad assumption, particularly because when Moghedien did use her little trick, exactly the right people were there to witness it, the people who needed to learn how to bring Rand back to life when the time came. It's obviously not a coincidence; the Pattern planned for Rand's resurrection and used Moghedien to carry off that plan.

 

I don't see how you could justify puling him back without permission.

 

Permission? From who? The Creator? He doesn't interfere! Also, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Ask Siuan.

 

And I don't see a Dragonsoul who has lived infinite lives asking to be pulled back.

 

For one, who says he will have any say in it? For another, I'm sure that in his infinite wisdom he will understand that it is necessary. Presumably he has done it before. Even if he tried to argue, I doubt Nynaeve would give him much choice in the matter. She might even bring Min with her to badger him; Min did threaten to follow him when he died and bring him back. To live in Far Madding. That has made me wonder if the boat will be on the Far Madding lake. Which makes me wonder about swords and stuff...

 

I know you have talked about the foreshadowing of Nyn healing someone 3 days dead, but I can't believe that that means she goes and talks to Rand in TAR for 2 nights before ripping him out.

 

No one said that's what it meant. Presumably there will be other things going on, and it may be that she does not figure it out immediately.

[Terez]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

"You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."

[Terez]

Wow, my vote gave the TAR option one point of advantage over the body-swap theory

I'm leaning toward this option, but it's not like I'm 100% sure - I don't want to be sure, I want Jordan to surprise me.

 

I prefer a bit of both. I want some things to be figurable because I like intricate foreshadowing and logic puzzles. But I'm sure there will be some surprises; there always are. The best mysteries are the ones that make you feel stupid for not having figured them out; I'm betting there will be a couple of those too, despite our cumulatively impressive detective work on fan forums.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

"You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."

 

The dead Heroes know even more about TAR than the Wise Ones even though they have apparently less control over TAR than living dreamers. That's why they can easily observe even professional dreamers without being found. So I doubt all the need in the world could force one of them to appear against their wishes. I still think the Dragon would have to allow himself to be found. But then I think the idea of the Dragon being ripped out of TAR is rather lame in the first place. The only thing worse would be for death to be actually healed.

[Terez]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

"You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."

 

The dead Heroes know even more about TAR than the Wise Ones even though they have apparently less control over TAR than living dreamers.

 

So? Nynaeve knows enough, and she has the world's direst Need. On top of that, Rand will probably not be opposed to his resurrection.

 

But then I think the idea of the Dragon being ripped out of TAR is rather lame in the first place. The only thing worse would be for death to be actually healed.

 

You will be disappointed, then. Try opening up to the things that are not lame about it, because it's going to happen whether or not you like it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

"You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."

 

The dead Heroes know even more about TAR than the Wise Ones even though they have apparently less control over TAR than living dreamers.

 

So? Nynaeve knows enough, and she has the world's direst Need. On top of that, Rand will probably not be opposed to his resurrection.

 

But then I think the idea of the Dragon being ripped out of TAR is rather lame in the first place. The only thing worse would be for death to be actually healed.

 

You will be disappointed, then. Try opening up to the things that are not lame about it, because it's going to happen whether or not you like it.

 

We'll see, whether it will. But if it does I doubt I'll like it very much. It just has too much of a cop out feel to me. Another personality change for Rand and it's just lame if the Dragon who knows how he defeated the DO countless times get's ripped out of TAR. There would be no tension, because Rand- if you can even call him Rand by then- would know exactly what had to be done.

[Vardar]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

"You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."

 

The dead Heroes know even more about TAR than the Wise Ones even though they have apparently less control over TAR than living dreamers.

 

So? Nynaeve knows enough, and she has the world's direst Need. On top of that, Rand will probably not be opposed to his resurrection.

 

But then I think the idea of the Dragon being ripped out of TAR is rather lame in the first place. The only thing worse would be for death to be actually healed.

 

You will be disappointed, then. Try opening up to the things that are not lame about it, because it's going to happen whether or not you like it.

 

Strong words.

 

Eggy used the Need before anyone taught it to any of them.

 

Just went back to Fires of Heaven to see if Ny even saw what Moggy did. It's inconclusive.

 

I have to agree that we don't know if ripping someone out of TAR is evil, it just appears to be evil, I'd find it hard to see it as a good thing.

[Terez]

Strong words.

 

Strong theories call for strong words. This one is as strong as they come.

 

Eggy used the Need before anyone taught it to any of them.

 

And they all used it at the Eye of the World. Thing is, when it was explained to the reader as a skill in Tel'aran'rhiod, Nynaeve was the one learning it.

 

Just went back to Fires of Heaven to see if Ny even saw what Moggy did. It's inconclusive.

 

No, it isn't. She was watching; her POV described what was happening. Not the exact weave, but it's rare we get descriptions of weaves so that's not unexpected.

 

I have to agree that we don't know if ripping someone out of TAR is evil, it just appears to be evil, I'd find it hard to see it as a good thing.

 

Why?

[Terez]

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

"You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."

 

The dead Heroes know even more about TAR than the Wise Ones even though they have apparently less control over TAR than living dreamers.

 

So? Nynaeve knows enough, and she has the world's direst Need. On top of that, Rand will probably not be opposed to his resurrection.

 

But then I think the idea of the Dragon being ripped out of TAR is rather lame in the first place. The only thing worse would be for death to be actually healed.

 

You will be disappointed, then. Try opening up to the things that are not lame about it, because it's going to happen whether or not you like it.

 

We'll see, whether it will. But if it does I doubt I'll like it very much. It just has too much of a cop out feel to me. Another personality change for Rand and it's just lame if the Dragon who knows how he defeated the DO countless times get's ripped out of TAR. There would be no tension, because Rand- if you can even call him Rand by then- would know exactly what had to be done.

 

Why is that lame? He can't do it himself; he has to depend on Nynaeve to figure it out and come get him. It's possible that other methods are used in other Turnings and he won't remember, but either way it doesn't matter much. There's plenty of tension there; you just have to use your imagination a little. A lot of the tension will be in the circumstances, and in the way events play out in the world while Rand is dead. They will probably have to win the military side of the Last Battle without him, and might well have to figure out how to seal the Bore without him. There's something he will be needed for after his resurrection, but we can't be sure exactly what that is.

[Mik]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason

 

And the Pattern makes it possible for them to be ripped out for a reason.

Evil people choose to do evil things, yes.

 

You're making an assumption that it's evil because an evil person chose to use it in an evil way. Fear not, RJ wanted you to make that assumption; that's why most people don't seem to realize that it's the obvious method for Rand's resurrection.

It's not me making any assumptions here. We're not talking about the use of a hammer here, that can be used to create or destroy.

We're discussing a weave that 'rips' people from their place in Creation.

 

Compulsion is an evil weave, regardless of intention, the one using it or the target.

Rape is an evil act, regardlessof intention, the one doing it or the target.

I think it's folly to compare what's literally been called 'ripping away from Tar' a few times in the book (ripping is destroying/ breaking) to the fact that you can have evil and good intention when you are holding a hammer.

 

Just look at what words RJ used. Night folding over someone.... enveloping in blackness... burning...

Throughout the books, those are descriptions that -especially linked to one event- always point in one direction: the Shadow.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

The assumption this isn't "doing evil" is yours actually.

 

Correction; one evil person did; to kill a Hero.

And she was not successful, because Elayne figured out how to keep Birgitte alive. Elayne needed to learn that so that she could save Rand when the time came.

That's irrelevant: ít's a weave that seriously harms the Thread so that it kills the person AND it short circuits the Pattern.

That Elayne intervened makes absolutely no difference to how bad that Weave actually is.

 

Again, using Compulsion as an example;

That Nyneave was able to remove Compulsion does not make using Compulsion a less evil weave.

Sure... I could come up with lots of way to use Compulsion to give the Light an advantage over the Shadow, but it would still be using evil ways.

 

I'd like you to consider Aridhol; using evil to combat evil. RJ clearly send us the message that's not the correct way to really beat evil. Else we probably wouldn't have it changed in a place 'where (manmade) Shadow Waits', now would it?

RJ's message is that by doing evil, -even in small and tiny bits that add up- you actually end up becomming your own enemy. (through Rands actions leading up to VoG & Shadar Logoth)

 

I really doubt RJ would ever use evil -regardless of how little- like this to have Good defeat Evil.

 

And you say Nynaeve won't "abuse it". Erm... how is 'ripping' and 'short-circuting' the fabric of the Pattern not abuse in and by itself??

 

There is nothing inherently evil about short-circuiting the Pattern. It's a tool, and the loopholes exist for a reason. That reason probably only comes around once in a Turning.

Would you say the same if this theory would revolve around Compulsion?

I'm just really curious why you're so keen on keeping this Weave 'neutral'.

I think the only reason is because it fits a certain theory that would fall apart without it.

 

Not abusing this means Nyneave realizing this is evil and choosing not to use the knowledge, I think.

I think Nynaeve can tell the difference between something that is evil and something that should not be used except in the direst circumstances, whether or not Mik can tell the difference.

Don't worry about that. As we can see from Shadar Logoth and Rand's own progression through the books, I'm 100% sure RJ could tell the difference per-fect-ly.

So I'm pretty sure Nyn can too... and I'm very, very sure I can as well. :)

 

You're the one trying to twist an evil act used by an evil person, worded as an evil weave and doing horrible things as something similar to a shovel that you can use to beat someone to death with and dig their grave or as something wich you can plant trees with also. Hehe!

 

"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills"... right? Our little spider doesn't much care for that, but you'd think a nice person -and a Healer to boot- might just care about preserving the Pattern instead of ripping Threads from TAR and short circuiting the Pattern.

 

Short-circuiting the Pattern does not destroy it or inhibit it in any fashion. Birgitte has to suffer the consequences of her own resurrection, because Moghedien used that tool in an evil way. As you said, she tried to kill Birgitte, and failed because of Elayne. Aside from death, the only consequences are that Birgitte was ripped into the world as an adult with past life memories instead of born as a baby a few years later as she should have been. But it's not the end of the world; Min saw that she is still connected to Gaidal Cain. Rand would not even suffer those consequences if he were resurrected immediately; he would simply continue to live his natural life.

Just look at what you're writing! You're trying to make Elayne's noble actions and smart thinking part of what Moghedien did. What Moghedien wove was pure evil. Simple. Regardless of how others solved the harm done. You can write an essay about all that happened after that weave, that doesn't make the weave less evil, Terez.

 

Again...compare to Compulsion / Aridhol.

You can write long reasons why Compulsion is usefull and how to counter it's long term affects..or how useful Aridhols fights were to combat Shai'tans forces... in the end.. they are still evil.

 

 

Exactly what points to Rand dying before the Last Battle?

 

All four prophecies that mention his death, for starters. A long chain of interconnected foreshadowing throughout the series. He has to die because of his connection to the Shadow, which suggests that he can't finish the job properly because of that connection. That further suggests that he has to be resurrected to finish the job. Tons of little details back that up. He'll be dead for three days, and I have a feeling that most of the military action will be during that time period.

I marked the important bit you failed to answer in bold.

 

The Dragon is the Champion of Life. Everything points to the Dragon having not died the final death yet. :)

 

No one said anything about final death.

I did. And it had a good reason: RJ made it clear through LTT's own thoughts, that he didn't die the final death yet. Not everything that was the Dragon died. All throughout the books his mind survived. That part that made the Dragon persona LTT survived. It makes sense, since it's the Champion of Life. You actually think RJ would intend for said Champion to die juuust a few days prior to when he's fated to die?! Oddness.

[Terez]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me. The Pattern puts them there for a reason

 

And the Pattern makes it possible for them to be ripped out for a reason.

Evil people choose to do evil things, yes.

 

You're making an assumption that it's evil because an evil person chose to use it in an evil way. Fear not, RJ wanted you to make that assumption; that's why most people don't seem to realize that it's the obvious method for Rand's resurrection.

It's not me making any assumptions here.

 

Oh, but you are. And I'm done with you; not sure why I responded to you in the first place; should have learned from experience.

[pamela]

Come on guys, chill out... I think we shouldn't say that something is obvious, that it will happen and others have to accept that.

 

Regardless of good/bad nature of ripping out of TAR, the issue of past lives' memories and another personality change bothers me, I don't want it happen.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Why is that lame? He can't do it himself; he has to depend on Nynaeve to figure it out and come get him. It's possible that other methods are used in other Turnings and he won't remember, but either way it doesn't matter much. There's plenty of tension there; you just have to use your imagination a little. A lot of the tension will be in the circumstances, and in the way events play out in the world while Rand is dead. They will probably have to win the military side of the Last Battle without him, and might well have to figure out how to seal the Bore without him. There's something he will be needed for after his resurrection, but we can't be sure exactly what that is.

 

I've been following Rand's story since I was nine, that's almost twenty years now, through all his highs and lows and this is supposed to be his final moment where he triumphs over the DO after all that struggle. However, if he is ripped out of TAR he won't really be Rand anymore. He'll be the Dragon who is effectively a new character. The amalgamation of all his lives and not just the current one (plus LTT since TOM).

 

We've seen next to nothing from Rand's perspective in TOM, we have seen his change from without, but not really from within. In AMOL I expect quite a bit of time to be spent on reintroducing this new Rand to us from his own perspective. That this new ZenRand is not nearly as superhuman as an outside observer might believe. What you propose is that this new Rand we don't fully know will be replaced yet again for the finale with an even wiser and more knowledgeable variant.

 

And at that point one has to ask oneself just what exactly the point of all Rand's struggles was. What need would there be for his character development if at the crucial moment he just gets replaced by a perfect alter ego? One who has succeeded countless times in defeating the DO, for whom it is business as usual. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating a bit.

That exactly is what I think would be lame.

 

If he got ripped back out of TAR exactly as he was before, that would be one thing, but we know from Birgitte that if a Hero gets ripped out he or she retains, atleast in the beginning, the memories of all her lives.

[Mik]

Oh, but you are. And I'm done with you; not sure why I responded to you in the first place; should have learned from experience.

That's... a real shame.

I don't see how I could have offended you in any way, shape or form, besides having some (I thought very decent) arguments against what you brought up.

Some replies to what you said, compulsion, Aridhol.

All decent enough, I reckon.

 

Anyone else who likes that theory and who also thinks the weave is not evil...?

 

 

Edit:

(@Terez: sorry for upsetting you. I still don't know how I did that. Regardless, I respect the time and effort you put into your hobby and I feel bad for upsetting you. I hope it helps to know that. And I hope it helps to know that all I want is to debate the content of what RJ wrote. Nothing more...nothing less.)

[pamela]

Anyone else who likes that theory and who also thinks the weave is not evil...?

 

I am the one who likes it, but who also think that you may be right, just as another personality change would be pretty lame. These are the incoherencies which I think inevitably exist in all the theories.

[tje]

Mik, I like your train of thought on evil weaves. Would you consider Balefire an evil weave?

[Vardar]

Strong words.

 

Strong theories call for strong words. This one is as strong as they come.

 

Eggy used the Need before anyone taught it to any of them.

 

And they all used it at the Eye of the World. Thing is, when it was explained to the reader as a skill in Tel'aran'rhiod, Nynaeve was the one learning it.

 

Just went back to Fires of Heaven to see if Ny even saw what Moggy did. It's inconclusive.

 

No, it isn't. She was watching; her POV described what was happening. Not the exact weave, but it's rare we get descriptions of weaves so that's not unexpected.

 

I have to agree that we don't know if ripping someone out of TAR is evil, it just appears to be evil, I'd find it hard to see it as a good thing.

 

Why?

 

1) If you say so. I'm not a fan of such assertive words. It implies you know something. But hey, I understand

2) No I mean Eggy used it in TAR in book 3. She closed her eyes and said she Needed to help Rand, and BAM, she shifted. So the skill in TAR was shown by Eggy before anyone else was taught it.

3) Well, it said she saw a glow around Moggy that was blinding, then darkness. To be specfic it's not describing that she saw anything about weaves, in could infer that with the blinding light and the darkness, she didn't see anything. (Just my theory)

4) Because it goes against the pattern. The pattern has placed them there for a reason, and then gives them a way to be thrown out regularly and when need arises. Just because the pattern allows something to happen doesn't mean it's not evil. The pattern allowed the way for the bore to be made to happen, it allowed Balefire to be discovered. Ripping someone from TAR, of Pushing them out of a place where they were placed for safety just doesn't sound too good. Or even neutral. It sounds pretty evil to me.