Egwene's headaches

[FarShainMael]

Graendal notes in ToM Prologue that 'the Great Lord had not been pleased with {Aran'gar} for losing control of Egwene al'Vere'. So she had not completed her task.

 

But she is resolved to oppose Rand, and may have unified the WT for that reason.

[Agitel]

I having a hard time believing that Egwene was under a weave of compulsion. Halima never tells her to do something specifically. When Morgase was under Rahvin's control, He exerted much more control upon her.

 

Well, the fact is that if Halima was compelling Egwene she wouldn't have been doing it to the degree that Rahvin did with Morgase because that sort of compulsion causes changes in behaviour that are noticeable, and identifiable if you know the signs--both through simple observation and through delving, given the stronger the compulsion the longer the trace lasts. Given that Aes Sedai are better equiped to notice either, any strong, or even medium strength compulsion, therefore ran the risk of being detected.

 

The most she could have done was give nudges.

 

The evidence of these nudges would have to be in Egwene's actions. What did Egwene do during the "Halima" timeframe that directly served the Shadow? Most of her initiatives seemed to go against the interests of the Shadow:

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

- Sending the Ebou Dar mission that secured the ter'angreal cache and broke the DO's hold on the weather (temporarily)

- Opening the novice book to allow hundreds of new initiates to enter training

- Milking Moghedien of several discoveries, most notably Traveling, which the DO punished Moghe for.

 

Post Halima, Egwene:

- With Verin's help, decapitated the BA and ended their 2K year infiltration of the WT

- Unified the WT

- Unraveled the Shadow's plan to destroy the WT, and managed to take Mesaana out.

- Continued to build up the WT army's strength under Gareth Bryne to fight in TG.

 

The question is: "If Egwene was under any degree of compulsion, what actions did she carry out that can be labeled as helping the Shadow?"

 

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

 

All of those work towards creating not just a rift but a real civil war with the Tower. The rebels just sitting there isn't nearly as productive as all out war between Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. Halima's work likely consisted of continuing to lead the rebel Aes Sedai into conflict and preventing a resolution by peaceful means. The same goes for Mesaana but on the WT's end.

[Maleshub]

I having a hard time believing that Egwene was under a weave of compulsion. Halima never tells her to do something specifically. When Morgase was under Rahvin's control, He exerted much more control upon her.

 

Well, the fact is that if Halima was compelling Egwene she wouldn't have been doing it to the degree that Rahvin did with Morgase because that sort of compulsion causes changes in behaviour that are noticeable, and identifiable if you know the signs--both through simple observation and through delving, given the stronger the compulsion the longer the trace lasts. Given that Aes Sedai are better equiped to notice either, any strong, or even medium strength compulsion, therefore ran the risk of being detected.

 

The most she could have done was give nudges.

 

The evidence of these nudges would have to be in Egwene's actions. What did Egwene do during the "Halima" timeframe that directly served the Shadow? Most of her initiatives seemed to go against the interests of the Shadow:

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

- Sending the Ebou Dar mission that secured the ter'angreal cache and broke the DO's hold on the weather (temporarily)

- Opening the novice book to allow hundreds of new initiates to enter training

- Milking Moghedien of several discoveries, most notably Traveling, which the DO punished Moghe for.

 

Post Halima, Egwene:

- With Verin's help, decapitated the BA and ended their 2K year infiltration of the WT

- Unified the WT

- Unraveled the Shadow's plan to destroy the WT, and managed to take Mesaana out.

- Continued to build up the WT army's strength under Gareth Bryne to fight in TG.

 

The question is: "If Egwene was under any degree of compulsion, what actions did she carry out that can be labeled as helping the Shadow?"

 

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

 

All of those work towards creating not just a rift but a real civil war with the Tower. The rebels just sitting there isn't nearly as productive as all out war between Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. Halima's work likely consisted of continuing to lead the rebel Aes Sedai into conflict and preventing a resolution by peaceful means. The same goes for Mesaana but on the WT's end.

 

I am under the impression that Halima was surprised by Egwene's actions. She tried to manipulate these actions that were out of her control. We have to remember that Salidar with 2 BA sitters preferred to stay put in Salidar and keep the WT split and weakened. To me that was the original plan by the Shadow .... "Divide and Conquer!!!!"

[Trakand]

I having a hard time believing that Egwene was under a weave of compulsion. Halima never tells her to do something specifically. When Morgase was under Rahvin's control, He exerted much more control upon her.

 

Well, the fact is that if Halima was compelling Egwene she wouldn't have been doing it to the degree that Rahvin did with Morgase because that sort of compulsion causes changes in behaviour that are noticeable, and identifiable if you know the signs--both through simple observation and through delving, given the stronger the compulsion the longer the trace lasts. Given that Aes Sedai are better equiped to notice either, any strong, or even medium strength compulsion, therefore ran the risk of being detected.

 

The most she could have done was give nudges.

 

The evidence of these nudges would have to be in Egwene's actions. What did Egwene do during the "Halima" timeframe that directly served the Shadow? Most of her initiatives seemed to go against the interests of the Shadow:

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

- Sending the Ebou Dar mission that secured the ter'angreal cache and broke the DO's hold on the weather (temporarily)

- Opening the novice book to allow hundreds of new initiates to enter training

- Milking Moghedien of several discoveries, most notably Traveling, which the DO punished Moghe for.

 

Post Halima, Egwene:

- With Verin's help, decapitated the BA and ended their 2K year infiltration of the WT

- Unified the WT

- Unraveled the Shadow's plan to destroy the WT, and managed to take Mesaana out.

- Continued to build up the WT army's strength under Gareth Bryne to fight in TG.

 

The question is: "If Egwene was under any degree of compulsion, what actions did she carry out that can be labeled as helping the Shadow?"

 

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

 

All of those work towards creating not just a rift but a real civil war with the Tower. The rebels just sitting there isn't nearly as productive as all out war between Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. Halima's work likely consisted of continuing to lead the rebel Aes Sedai into conflict and preventing a resolution by peaceful means. The same goes for Mesaana but on the WT's end.

 

I am under the impression that Halima was surprised by Egwene's actions. She tried to manipulate these actions that were out of her control. We have to remember that Salidar with 2 BA sitters preferred to stay put in Salidar and keep the WT split and weakened. To me that was the original plan by the Shadow .... "Divide and Conquer!!!!"

 

Thank you theodril, you have helped with this discussion greatly. I agree with you. I do not believe she was under heavy compulsion. I looked through the later parts in the novel about Morgase. When she discussed rahvin's compulsion with Tallanvor, she admitted her lack of control if she was to meet gaebril again. Now, she now possesses the knowledge she was compulsed. Unless Egwene was only getting compulsed in solitary events, the effects did not fade in morgase. I think it is unlikely they would fade in Egwene. Like you said, she has done a lot of things that have stifled the plans of the shadow. I agree it was most advantageous for the shadow for the tower to stay split. Aran'gar must be really bad at compulsion,ya?

[muddasssir]

i mean what is wrong with everybody? luckers have stated fifty time during this discussion that levels of compulsion can vary. it does not have to be ham fisted like rahvin their could be a pretty delicate compulsion

[WMBunt]

I think the problem people have with the Compulsion is that we haven't really seen Egwene do anything out of strongly character. There is a good outline of things she's done that would go against the Shadow.

 

Her opposition to Rand isn't anything new. She's struggled with the back and forth of seeing him as The Dragon vs. Rand al'Thor from the Two Rivers from about book five on. It's the same struggle Mat had starting in Lord of Chaos and that Rand has had with viewing Egwene as her character progressed. Mat has to remind himself that despite the stole, he has to continue to think of her as Egwene because part of who she was still is there. Rand thinks the same thing at times.

 

She's had nightmares about breaking the seals so that opposition is also natural. Rand/LTT has even acknowledged once that he tried to bully the female Aes Sedai into one of his plans the first time and they opposed him when he thought it was the right plan and it proved he was the one in the wrong and saidin was tainted. He hopes that's not the case again. He believes it's not, but he also believed the first strike at Shayol Ghoul was correct.

 

I just think people are waiting for something a little more "un-Egwene" before the completely buy into the Compulsion.

 

It may be, but I think Halima was just using the headaches as an excuse to stay close and sow general discord in the camps while manipulating through the agents of the Shadow in the camp. If you know what Egwene is thinking, you can better use the others in the camp to push her along or thwart her perhaps?

[Agitel]

I think the problem people have with the Compulsion is that we haven't really seen Egwene do anything out of strongly character. There is a good outline of things she's done that would go against the Shadow.

 

Her opposition to Rand isn't anything new. She's struggled with the back and forth of seeing him as The Dragon vs. Rand al'Thor from the Two Rivers from about book five on. It's the same struggle Mat had starting in Lord of Chaos and that Rand has had with viewing Egwene as her character progressed. Mat has to remind himself that despite the stole, he has to continue to think of her as Egwene because part of who she was still is there. Rand thinks the same thing at times.

 

She's had nightmares about breaking the seals so that opposition is also natural. Rand/LTT has even acknowledged once that he tried to bully the female Aes Sedai into one of his plans the first time and they opposed him when he thought it was the right plan and it proved he was the one in the wrong and saidin was tainted. He hopes that's not the case again. He believes it's not, but he also believed the first strike at Shayol Ghoul was correct.

 

I just think people are waiting for something a little more "un-Egwene" before the completely buy into the Compulsion.

 

It may be, but I think Halima was just using the headaches as an excuse to stay close and sow general discord in the camps while manipulating through the agents of the Shadow in the camp. If you know what Egwene is thinking, you can better use the others in the camp to push her along or thwart her perhaps?

 

Not all of us thinking there may have been some subtle nudging think it was used to turn her against Rand. How did Halima's 'pet' Aes Sedai vote at the council meetings, I wonder? I forget her name. I don't know when I'll have the time to reference it.

[Trakand]

i mean what is wrong with everybody? luckers have stated fifty time during this discussion that levels of compulsion can vary. it does not have to be ham fisted like rahvin their could be a pretty delicate compulsion

 

We are discussing context and rationalizing egwene's character. While it is simple to deem her actions as compulsion from Halima, I feel it does her character a disservice to simply write it off as such. In this thread, we are speaking in shades of grey. It is difficult to determine what was going on with Egwene. We had never gotten a bead on Aran'gar's schemes, so it is dificult to determine her actions. This would have been an excellent question to ask robert jordan. God bless his soul.

 

 

That line of thought creeps me out-- Egwene isn't little-miss-snooty throughout the whole series. Not really. She's in the hands of evil (or close enough)women from halfway through TGH, and into TGS? That's scary. And, according to this theory, she still might be under Compulsion from any of the numerous DF/Forsaken that have been manipulating her?

 

That actually makes me feel sorry for her.

 

I know many people have different feelings about her character, but I don't want to slight her character. A person could read this thread and take it completely out of context, diminishing her character. Which is why, I feel it is beneficial to be discussed.

[WMBunt]

I think the problem people have with the Compulsion is that we haven't really seen Egwene do anything out of strongly character. There is a good outline of things she's done that would go against the Shadow.

 

Her opposition to Rand isn't anything new. She's struggled with the back and forth of seeing him as The Dragon vs. Rand al'Thor from the Two Rivers from about book five on. It's the same struggle Mat had starting in Lord of Chaos and that Rand has had with viewing Egwene as her character progressed. Mat has to remind himself that despite the stole, he has to continue to think of her as Egwene because part of who she was still is there. Rand thinks the same thing at times.

 

She's had nightmares about breaking the seals so that opposition is also natural. Rand/LTT has even acknowledged once that he tried to bully the female Aes Sedai into one of his plans the first time and they opposed him when he thought it was the right plan and it proved he was the one in the wrong and saidin was tainted. He hopes that's not the case again. He believes it's not, but he also believed the first strike at Shayol Ghoul was correct.

 

I just think people are waiting for something a little more "un-Egwene" before the completely buy into the Compulsion.

 

It may be, but I think Halima was just using the headaches as an excuse to stay close and sow general discord in the camps while manipulating through the agents of the Shadow in the camp. If you know what Egwene is thinking, you can better use the others in the camp to push her along or thwart her perhaps?

 

Not all of us thinking there may have been some subtle nudging think it was used to turn her against Rand. How did Halima's 'pet' Aes Sedai vote at the council meetings, I wonder? I forget her name. I don't know when I'll have the time to reference it.

 

Delana. She was a Brown sister. She tried to play all sides and wound up being pretty ineffective in a lot of ways. She was the first to stand for Egwene as Amyrlin, however. Am getting back to the part of the series with the machinations in Salidar (finishing LoC on my re-read). But from memory, she wasn't a very effective schemer. She spent more time trying to balance everyone being happy and not suspecting her than really being an effective manipulator.

 

I think her really weak attempts at playing all sides are an indicator of how inept Aran'gar really was. At least that's my personal opinion. I think she was really bad at it because she let her new body and her desires for the flesh get in the way of the bigger picture.

 

Agitel: I didn't mean to imply I was speaking for everyone, just trying to answer in one thread a lot of the things that had been thrown out. Some have stated that they feel the Compulsion was used to set her in opposition to Rand. Others think there were finer weaves of Compulsion used (I was just saying that I think those of us who are skeptical of it don't really see her doing anything out of the ordinary for her as it was, so what was the point of Compelling her - no matter how subtle - to do something she would already be inclined to do anyway?).

 

Was just speaking in generalities.

[avernite]

I found her flip on the 3 oaths a bit odd, all things considered. But, after how ToM played out, not odd enough to definately pin it on compulsion.

 

She was somewhat over-obsessed with Mesaana being the killer, but this kind of thing happens to police forces the world over.

 

 

So, overall, I think she wasn't compelled, or if she was only for a moment we did not see yet. She was somewhat strangely switching around with the cable-cuendillaring, but there's no possible reason Halima would want that.