Sleeping in the Dream World

[Naggash]

So what? Possible?

What do our little Heroes of the Horn do to kill time? They can't sleep? Kind of excruciating don't you think? Around 100 years awake?

I think it's a silly reason to say that you can sleep in TAR, but well I kind of believe it...why not? True that you can die in horrible manners while sleeping in the TAR but still, even if it's not recommended, why wouldn't it be possible.

Don't know. Any ideas?

 

EDIT: This is about 'in the flesh', just forgot to mention it xD

EDIT2: I'm aware Horn Heroes aren't in the flesh but they live in the TAR so the situation is the same.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I don't know about this. Nobody has done it, AFIK on-screen.

 

Perhaps for the Heroes, they don't need sleep. When Egwene and co. are in TAR fatigue doesn't affect them (unless part of a nightmare, or forced to think so, I suppose) it is only when they wake that they feel tired.

 

It would be very dangerous to sleep in TAR, if you can do it without kinda just disappearing, since you need your mind active to affect TAR, and it can change very easily.

 

I would say it wasn't a good idea, if not impossible without dying or being seriously messed up.

[Naggash]

What's 'AFIK'? Sorry to keep bothering you xD

[Barid Bel Medar]

as far as I know.

 

whoops, missed out the a. It should be AFAIK

[kght22]

What's 'AFIK'? Sorry to keep bothering you xD

i speak english, but abbreviations always screw me, but i think "AFIK" is "as far as i know". don't ask me though if that is correct.

[kght22]

the heroes of the horn don't need to sleep, they already are. and there is no reason why a person in tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh couldn't go to sleep, it is just a really insanely stupid idea.

 

gawyn and the bloodknives while not the greatest scene in the series is a great example of why falling asleep in TAR is a bad idea. it is kind of inverse, but the very improbable can happen in the unseen world, things that are very random, including a random dreamer bringing a nightmare your way, WHILE YOU ARE ASLEEP. and we know that even dreamers need real sleep or else they walk around exhausted, so you can't go to sleep and stand there over your flesh and expect to get rest.

[jsbrads]

I thought the black ajah women guarding our girls captured in the stone of tear did fall asleep, while messing around with one of the dream terangreal, then she was stilled, then killed so it didnt work out for her, but possible.

 

Im not clear if on needs real sleep or if one could spend all night in telrhoid and stay awake all day... I know egwene thinks she needs real sleep... and i think the wise ones said something similar, but I not sure they are right...

[Naggash]

Well you're forgetting I said 'in the flesh'. If you are in the flesh and you have the guts to sleep, you get rest. Well, if you can sleep in TAR I mean, since I still don't know FOR SURE if it's possible.

Egwene sais that she needs "real rest" because she isn't in the flesh and she isn't sleeping to begin with. Or you mean when she is analyzing her dreams as they come? Thats another thing. That's just mental exhaustation.

[kght22]

I thought the black ajah women guarding our girls captured in the stone of tear did fall asleep, while messing around with one of the dream terangreal, then she was stilled, then killed so it didnt work out for her, but possible.

 

Im not clear if on needs real sleep or if one could spend all night in telrhoid and stay awake all day... I know egwene thinks she needs real sleep... and i think the wise ones said something similar, but I not sure they are right...

well missing knowledge does suck. when it comes to the stilling of the ba sister who the guarding the jail, and another who was ran into, they were shielded in TAR, and that to the best of my knowledge why they ended up stilled. and yes that is a huge danger to anyone using a similar access to the world of dreams. being blocked from the power, and then waking up, might essentially still you. but it might not be the same thing and nobody in the third age can tell the difference.

[kght22]

Well you're forgetting I said 'in the flesh'. If you are in the flesh and you have the guts to sleep, you get rest. Well, if you can sleep in TAR I mean, since I still don't know FOR SURE if it's possible.

Egwene sais that she needs "real rest" because she isn't in the flesh and she isn't sleeping to begin with. Or you mean when she is analyzing her dreams as they come? Thats another thing. That's just mental exhaustation.

you are still missing me i think. regardless of how you enter the world of dreams, you need real sleep. i don't know, nor does anyone else, if you can actually go to sleep in the world of dreams, it hasn't happen nor has it had the chance to happen. my initial argument was about the idea that lanfear had a home in TAR, and to me that just seems nonsensical, it is more likely that she had a home outside the pattern in a nodule or whatever it is called than to have one in the public TAR. and even more likely that she just subverted a minor household that had a nice home. if you can sleep in TAR when you go there in the flesh it seems like a really REALLY BAD idea to do it. but regardless you need rem sleep, even observing your dreams as a dreamer reduces how much you rest. entering TAR in the flesh likely doesn't let you rest AT ALL. entering as a dream only lets your muscles rest from my understanding, your mind is still fully active. but the worst idea about sleeping in tar when there in the flesh should be pretty obvious. a random nightmare could kill you with no warning.

[Naggash]

As you say at the beggining, we don't know because we haven't any on-screen prove. But that applies either to state it or tu negate it.

I created the thread hoping for someone with Interview-information to say something about it.

As long as we don't get prove, your opinion and mine are both possible.

About the nightmares, as I said we are not discussing if it's clever to sleep there, only if it's possible and resting.

Observing dreams requiere mental activity as well as walking on the dream. Sleeping on the dream would be another thing entirely. You are actually SLEEPING.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I thought the black ajah women guarding our girls captured in the stone of tear did fall asleep, while messing around with one of the dream terangreal, then she was stilled, then killed so it didnt work out for her, but possible.

 

Im not clear if on needs real sleep or if one could spend all night in telrhoid and stay awake all day... I know egwene thinks she needs real sleep... and i think the wise ones said something similar, but I not sure they are right...

well missing knowledge does suck. when it comes to the stilling of the ba sister who the guarding the jail, and another who was ran into, they were shielded in TAR, and that to the best of my knowledge why they ended up stilled. and yes that is a huge danger to anyone using a similar access to the world of dreams. being blocked from the power, and then waking up, might essentially still you. but it might not be the same thing and nobody in the third age can tell the difference.

 

Only one of them was stilled, one was merely shielded and captured, the other was stilled. Egwene does it by accident, she weaves a shield, then changes it a bit to still her. It didn't have anything to do with TAR, except that if you are stilled in TAR, you are stilled in the real world.

[kght22]

I thought the black ajah women guarding our girls captured in the stone of tear did fall asleep, while messing around with one of the dream terangreal, then she was stilled, then killed so it didnt work out for her, but possible.

 

Im not clear if on needs real sleep or if one could spend all night in telrhoid and stay awake all day... I know egwene thinks she needs real sleep... and i think the wise ones said something similar, but I not sure they are right...

well missing knowledge does suck. when it comes to the stilling of the ba sister who the guarding the jail, and another who was ran into, they were shielded in TAR, and that to the best of my knowledge why they ended up stilled. and yes that is a huge danger to anyone using a similar access to the world of dreams. being blocked from the power, and then waking up, might essentially still you. but it might not be the same thing and nobody in the third age can tell the difference.

 

Only one of them was stilled, one was merely shielded and captured, the other was stilled. Egwene does it by accident, she weaves a shield, then changes it a bit to still her. It didn't have anything to do with TAR, except that if you are stilled in TAR, you are stilled in the real world.

sorry, it has been over a year since i last read through so i am working on my flawed memory. damn i need to reread tdr, i cant remember if the first time i heard a "sharp" shield mentioned was in tdr or tsr. i thought it was in the shadow rising in tanchico with nyn fighting mog, who she didn't still, but basically tried to. but eqwene does a mod on a shield in TDR? wow i really need to do a reread, it sounds right, i remember in my own mental visual way that you are right, i cant remember the words, as i can in the first moggy fight.

[kght22]

As you say at the beggining, we don't know because we haven't any on-screen prove. But that applies either to state it or tu negate it.

I created the thread hoping for someone with Interview-information to say something about it.

As long as we don't get prove, your opinion and mine are both possible.

About the nightmares, as I said we are not discussing if it's clever to sleep there, only if it's possible and resting.

Observing dreams requiere mental activity as well as walking on the dream. Sleeping on the dream would be another thing entirely. You are actually SLEEPING.

don't worry, this thread has had enough conversation overnight that someone like terez or luckers is likely to make someone like me look like a dipshit with real knowledge through the day. the best i can say about what i have done is for both of us, we have been able to expand the details of the question. with any luck it is a good question.

[Apples First]

What about the scene at the end of FoH with Moghedian and Nynaeve?

Nyn gives her forkroot to make Moghedian sleep and she ends up leaving TWoD as a result. Here it is:

 

A large silver cup appeared in Nynaeve’s hand, apparently filled with tea. “Drink this.”

Moghedien edged back. “What—?”

“Not poison. I could kill you easily enough without, if that was my aim. After all, what happens to you here is real in the waking world, too.” Hope much stronger than fear now. “It will make you sleep. A deep sleep; too deep to touch Tel’aran’rhiod. It’s called forkroot.”

 

*a paragraph later*

 

Moghedien’s eyes rolled up her head. Nynaeve was not sure whether it was the forkroot or a faint, but it did not matter. She released the other woman, and Moghedien winked out.

 

 

(I love that scene)

 

Moggy's departure has nothing to do with the Forkroot interfering with her ability to channel (apart from the enchanced side-effects of the herb) as she is Dreamwalking which doesn't require the use of the One Power.

 

So, if you fall asleep in Tel’aran’rhiod, you enter your own dream and, if your sleep is not too deep, have the option to return.

[Naggash]

EDIT: This is about 'in the flesh', just forgot to mention it xD

Please read all the message >,<

[kght22]

What about the scene at the end of FoH with Moghedian and Nynaeve?

Nyn gives her forkroot to make Moghedian sleep and she ends up leaving TWoD as a result. Here it is:

 

A large silver cup appeared in Nynaeve’s hand, apparently filled with tea. “Drink this.”

Moghedien edged back. “What—?”

“Not poison. I could kill you easily enough without, if that was my aim. After all, what happens to you here is real in the waking world, too.” Hope much stronger than fear now. “It will make you sleep. A deep sleep; too deep to touch Tel’aran’rhiod. It’s called forkroot.”

 

*a paragraph later*

 

Moghedien’s eyes rolled up her head. Nynaeve was not sure whether it was the forkroot or a faint, but it did not matter. She released the other woman, and Moghedien winked out.

 

 

(I love that scene)

 

Moggy's departure has nothing to do with the Forkroot interfering with her ability to channel (apart from the enchanced side-effects of the herb) as she is Dreamwalking which doesn't require the use of the One Power.

 

So, if you fall asleep in Tel’aran’rhiod, you enter your own dream and, if your sleep is not too deep, have the option to return.

we speak of sleeping while in the unseen world physically. not entering it the way that egwene or perrin does. in the flesh for the in world description.

[Apples First]

Ah... my bad. I usually do read everything and am not sure how I missed that (in fact, I had mananged to read EDIT 2 somehow and still miss it...). Sorry.

 

Anyway, I will try again: Tel'aran'rhiod has been described as a reflection of the real world, so, the two worlds are very similar. Hence, normal functions such as breathing and sleeping (the lack of consciousness) should not change for those who enter in their real forms [which is not the case for Dreamwalkers; they do not really eat when they try (I seem to recall a scene where some characters are drinking tea in TAR) and fall sleep when unconscious (see Moggy)]. Therefore, I believe that sleeping in TAR would be akin to falling asleep in the real world.

 

However, I wonder whether you could try to enter Tel'aran'rhiod again whilst sleeping there. My opinion is that you will still be able to enter the void where other people's dreams exist (or will this be a different void for those who dream in TAR) and that it is possible to enter the World of Dreams again, but this time only in Dream-Form (so yes, you can see your sleeping form before you).

 

Also, I do not believe that entering a nightmare whilst in the flesh is too dangerous. You will be much stronger there and should be able to survive. Although, perhaps your dreams may change your surroundings.

 

Lastly, what happens when, having entered TAR whilst asleep (this is a new scenario unrelated to the Naggash's question), you attempt to leave it via a gateway. Do you just wink out like Moggy did in the above scene?

[Kamin_Majere]

It should be possible to sleep and even dream in T'A'R if you are in the flesh. Sleep is a biological function and "normal" dreams have nothing to do with T'A'R, only in very small circumstances does a non-Dreamer ever even touch T'A'R in their dreams.

 

So I would say yes you can indeed go to T'A'R in the flesh and then sleep and "normal" dream.

 

I wouldn't begin to postulate on what would happen to a person in T'A'R in the flesh that tried to dreamwalk into T'A'R... a reality ending paradox or just not possible I don't know

 

(this is all simply opinion though and no real base on anything as I don't know if any information on the subject exists, we might have to wait until the 2nd age rolls around again and ask some of the scholars there)

[Naggash]

If you enter TAR in the flesh you cannot Dream. Could be possible to enter the Dreams Void as I call it, nothing more. Any other way wouldn't make sense. WoT world is complex, deep and full of metaphor about human morale and a lot of more things, but everything makes sense, be it in a literal or symbolic way.

[Apples First]

Why is not possible to Dream whilst already there. All it is is sending the conscious part of yourself out the realm of one's mind and travelling the Void or TAR through it; your body still remains unconscious there.

 

In fact, if you fall asleep in TAR, could you Dream into the waking world? (lol)

 

Anyway, what about leaving TAR via a semi-gateway after Dreaming there in the first place?

[Naggash]

Why is not possible to Dream whilst already there. All it is is sending the conscious part of yourself out the realm of one's mind and travelling the Void or TAR through it; your body still remains unconscious there.

Because Dreaming is the act of entering the TAR(apart from the Void which is independant), if you're already there it doesn't make sense. It would be like Dreaming that you're in the WW...lol

 

In fact, if you fall asleep in TAR, could you Dream into the waking world? (lol)

Yeah lol and no, because I would break my head against a wall.

 

Anyway, what about leaving TAR via a semi-gateway after Dreaming there in the first place?

I think the waves would just not form completely. Or maybe it's one of those things 'power-dangerous' that can end up with you stilled or in an infinite space of endless blackness yupiiii golam ftw.

[Apples First]

Lol

 

Speaking of the Gholam, what do you think are his changes of falling back through an open gateway?

 

I can just imagine Rand attempting to Skim* to Shayol Ghul or whatever and...

 

 

 

*Yeah, he probably would Travel, but then, the Gholam wouldn't be able to escape.

[Byzantine279]

Lol

 

Speaking of the Gholam, what do you think are his changes of falling back through an open gateway?

 

I can just imagine Rand attempting to Skim* to Shayol Ghul or whatever and...

 

 

 

*Yeah, he probably would Travel, but then, the Gholam wouldn't be able to escape.

 

You can only intersect a skimming gateway by creating a skimming gateway in the exact same spot in the exact same way, otherwise they are alternate "worlds". (And the gholam is dead).

[jsbrads]

If you enter TAR in the flesh you cannot Dream. Could be possible to enter the Dreams Void as I call it, nothing more. Any other way wouldn't make sense. WoT world is complex, deep and full of metaphor about human morale and a lot of more things, but everything makes sense, be it in a literal or symbolic way.

 

had to quote this and say, you do dream, but time moves even slower :)

 

but in general, it maybe that, if you can believe strongly enough that you can enter telrhoid, sleep and dream, then you can, it seems belief is the limiting factor to most things in Randland physics (note: belief in how large a platform can be made while skimming)