Understanding Perrin

[safwd]

It also seems that you are saying that people died because of his mistakes in battle while he was leading.

Well that is true, welcome to being a leader in battle. Especially when you are all of 20 years old fighting monsters from the stories and your army consists of a bunch of farmers (for the Two Rivers).

Give the guy a break. He is a 20 year old kid who didnt want any of this and has been tossed into it head first.

 

Do you think none of the Band has died because Matt did something unwise.

Matt died because Rand did something unwise.

They are all kids. For the most part undereducated rural farm kids.

 

And i would say time wise it took Perrin probably close to the same amount of time it took the others to decide he really was a leader.

It took more books to get there but that is hardly Perrins fault.

[Durinax]

As for who died because of Perrin, Plently of unnamed characters died due to his mistakes and unwillingness to step up. I'm thinking in the Two River's battles, and later with his Faiel kidnapping. He did pretty damn good saving Rand from the sisters, I don't think any people died because of him then, but he took command, and told people what to do (first time).

in every battle people on both sides die. During times of battle / pre battle preparations Perrin steps up remarkably, it is during the down time where he tries to recede into the furniture and not lead.

[safwd]

Yet another point when comparing Perrin to the other two golden boys.

 

Matt has the memories and battle knowledge of hundreds of people in his head. That helps.

Rand has one of the greatest Aes Sedai to ever live in his head, though he is crazy. That helps, especially now.

Perrin has wolves in his head, that think humans are stupid. Doesnt help that much.

[Mr Ares]

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

In my experience, people who don't want responsibility are often ill suited to having it. It is only those that want responsibility that should be given it (and even then, a lot of them are unsuited).

[safwd]

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

In my experience, people who don't want responsibility are often ill suited to having it. It is only those that want responsibility that should be given it (and even then, a lot of them are unsuited).

As i said above first they must be qualified.

From my experience most of the people i have seen that really wanted a leadership role wanted it to make themselves look good, not to do the best job possible.

I have known many highly qualified people that really didnt want the job because they knew that to do it right it would be a pain in the butt.

There are those who want leadership who arent self serving but there are plenty out there that are.

Rarely you will see the guy who is reluctant to take the job be self serving while in the job.

[Mr Ares]

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

In my experience, people who don't want responsibility are often ill suited to having it. It is only those that want responsibility that should be given it (and even then, a lot of them are unsuited).

As i said above first they must be qualified.

From my experience most of the people i have seen that really wanted a leadership role wanted it to make themselves look good, not to do the best job possible.

I have known many highly qualified people that really didnt want the job because they knew that to do it right it would be a pain in the butt.

There are those who want leadership who arent self serving but there are plenty out there that are.

Rarely you will see the guy who is reluctant to take the job be self serving while in the job.

In my experience, it's fairly common for those reluctant to do the job to be self serving while in it. People who think the job will be a pain in the butt find that it is a pain, and then compensate. They didn't want the hassle to begin with, so they might as well get something out of it. Or just do as little as possible to get by. The people you should put in positions of responsibility are those that are willing and able to do a good job. That either means people who want the job, or people who don't want it but are unusually selfless. In my experience, there is only so much people will be willing to put into a job they really don't want to do unless there is something in it for them.

[safwd]

It seems Mr. Ares that we have had different experiences in our time.

 

Perhaps i should change "Dont want" to "Hesitant".

 

Either way, Perrin turned it around and he is once again a great character!

Someone earlier in the topic actually seemed to blame Perrin because his story arc took too long to finish. I didnt realise he wrote that part.

[matisawesome]

The reason they don't accept their roles is because they don't want to be taveren. you say you would want to channel but do you want that when it means your going to die a horrible death when you love three people perrin's only connection to a real life is his wife faile thats why he can't let go

[Vardar]

It also seems that you are saying that people died because of his mistakes in battle while he was leading.

Well that is true, welcome to being a leader in battle. Especially when you are all of 20 years old fighting monsters from the stories and your army consists of a bunch of farmers (for the Two Rivers).

Give the guy a break. He is a 20 year old kid who didnt want any of this and has been tossed into it head first.

 

Do you think none of the Band has died because Matt did something unwise.

Matt died because Rand did something unwise.

They are all kids. For the most part undereducated rural farm kids.

 

And i would say time wise it took Perrin probably close to the same amount of time it took the others to decide he really was a leader.

It took more books to get there but that is hardly Perrins fault.

 

Yes he won the battles, could things have been different? Yes. WInning isn't eveything. Look how many losses he took when he saved the white cloaks from that attack. Hmm. None. That was after he stepped up and accepted the mantle of leader.

 

It did not take Perrin the same amount of time to decide he had to lead. Mat and Rand had it figured out right after the Waste, Perrin was still struggling in the two rivers about being a temporary leader, or leading just so people wouldn't follow Lord Luc (which makes no sense at all either, I mean I understadn the guy was evil, but discount that and you come to a conclusion that he took command just to keep it from someone else, wth is he 5?)

 

Really early Perrin wasn't bad, up too taking over the Stone. Then he went downhill.

 

And In response to your later statement: I'm not blaming him for his story arc, we're discussing characters here right? Perrin had plently of opportunities to step up and accept the mantle. He chose not too. Hell, look how long it took him to accept the damn Wolf part of him. Seriously. Rand fought being the DR and channelling for how long? He accepted it, Perrin meanwhile is still worried about becoming a wolf, oh woe is me. Rand has to worry about going insane and dying. Rand 1 Perrin 0.

[Mr Ares]

It did not take Perrin the same amount of time to decide he had to lead. Mat and Rand had it figured out right after the Waste, Perrin was still struggling in the two rivers about being a temporary leader, or leading just so people wouldn't follow Lord Luc (which makes no sense at all either, I mean I understadn the guy was evil, but discount that and you come to a conclusion that he took command just to keep it from someone else, wth is he 5?)

It is entirely reasonable to take a position of responsibility or leadership in order to prevent someone less suitable taking that position. if anything, Perrin was acting as a leader before Mat, as Perrin was leading the TR - a position he never abandoned - during TSR, but Mat only took on a position of leadership in FoH, while trying to escape during the fighting against the Shaido. Plus, of course, one can hardly complain about Perrin being reluctant to accept his fate next to Mat "I am not bloody Lord" Cauthon. Hell, Rand was still fighting things up to VoG.

[TristanWebb]

I know there was Faile hate from the second book she was in, but when did the Perrin hate start? I know I only really dislike his chapters during the kidnapping saga because literally nothing happens. If there was a fan edit that pruned alot of the faffing around, I think there would be less Perrin hate.

[Vardar]

I know there was Faile hate from the second book she was in, but when did the Perrin hate start? I know I only really dislike his chapters during the kidnapping saga because literally nothing happens. If there was a fan edit that pruned alot of the faffing around, I think there would be less Perrin hate.

 

I disliked him well before the kidnapping. I started disliking him right after the taking of the stone. That's when Perrin started going downhill in his, I don't want to lead, I just want to die peacefully crap. Oh kill me whitecloaks.

 

All he needed was a black miniskirt and some eyeliner.

[Vardar]

It did not take Perrin the same amount of time to decide he had to lead. Mat and Rand had it figured out right after the Waste, Perrin was still struggling in the two rivers about being a temporary leader, or leading just so people wouldn't follow Lord Luc (which makes no sense at all either, I mean I understadn the guy was evil, but discount that and you come to a conclusion that he took command just to keep it from someone else, wth is he 5?)

It is entirely reasonable to take a position of responsibility or leadership in order to prevent someone less suitable taking that position. if anything, Perrin was acting as a leader before Mat, as Perrin was leading the TR - a position he never abandoned - during TSR, but Mat only took on a position of leadership in FoH, while trying to escape during the fighting against the Shaido. Plus, of course, one can hardly complain about Perrin being reluctant to accept his fate next to Mat "I am not bloody Lord" Cauthon. Hell, Rand was still fighting things up to VoG.

 

Mat saying I'm no Lord, is not refusing to lead. He led men while saying that.

[safwd]

This is starting to get crazy.

At the start of the series Perrin (and the other wonderboys) are all of 20 years old. And not the 20 years old of nowdays either, these are extrememly rural farm boys with not alot of education.

He is pulled from the only home he has ever known. Forced into a war with creatures he didnt think actually exist. His best friend is the Dragon Reborn.

And that weired itch in the back of your head is wolves trying to talk to you, because oh ya, you can talk to wolves.

Suck on that 20 year old.

He is thrust into battles and a leadership role not long after that. Is he great at it, no, but he gets better as time goes by. Does he want the role, no, but he excepts it as time goes by.

And this large amount of personnal growth he goes through takes place between the age of 20 and 22.

What took you so damn long farmboy?? 2 freaking years to go from a blacksmiths apprentice to a Lord of the 2 rivers and one of the Dragons battle leaders. You should be ashamed. ASHAMED.

 

Who cares if he took longer to get there than Rand and Mat. Rand and Mat had more help that he did. Rand also had more people working against him but still.

All three characters should not have come into their own all in the same time frame, this is what we call character diversity.

 

The fact that he led the two rivers farmers against tens of thousands of Trollics and won, at the ripe age of 21, but didnt do it perfectly so people died is getting nitpicked is pretty sad.

The fact that it is then stated that a whole year later he led another group (of far better trained soldiers) against a larger force of Trollics and didnt lose anyone proves that he learned pretty damn fast to me.

And I am not sure he didnt lose anyone saving the White Cloaks, i dont remember it saying that but it is possible.

[Vardar]

This is starting to get crazy.

At the start of the series Perrin (and the other wonderboys) are all of 20 years old. And not the 20 years old of nowdays either, these are extrememly rural farm boys with not alot of education.

He is pulled from the only home he has ever known. Forced into a war with creatures he didnt think actually exist. His best friend is the Dragon Reborn.

And that weired itch in the back of your head is wolves trying to talk to you, because oh ya, you can talk to wolves.

Suck on that 20 year old.

He is thrust into battles and a leadership role not long after that. Is he great at it, no, but he gets better as time goes by. Does he want the role, no, but he excepts it as time goes by.

And this large amount of personnal growth he goes through takes place between the age of 20 and 22.

What took you so damn long farmboy?? 2 freaking years to go from a blacksmiths apprentice to a Lord of the 2 rivers and one of the Dragons battle leaders. You should be ashamed. ASHAMED.

 

Who cares if he took longer to get there than Rand and Mat. Rand and Mat had more help that he did. Rand also had more people working against him but still.

All three characters should not have come into their own all in the same time frame, this is what we call character diversity.

 

The fact that he led the two rivers farmers against tens of thousands of Trollics and won, at the ripe age of 21, but didnt do it perfectly so people died is getting nitpicked is pretty sad.

The fact that it is then stated that a whole year later he led another group (of far better trained soldiers) against a larger force of Trollics and didnt lose anyone proves that he learned pretty damn fast to me.

And I am not sure he didnt lose anyone saving the White Cloaks, i dont remember it saying that but it is possible.

 

I'm fairly certain it was said. He lost none them.

 

Yes it's a lot of growing up to do, but it doesn't change the fact that he resisted as long as possible. As to the farmboy comments, eh, people go thru crap everyday, even in RL. People have their beliefs and foundations rocked and are forced to adapt. That's what picks out the winners from the losers, the strong from the weak, the ability and willingness to adpat and succeed. (They were 20 when this started? I pictured them more like 17).

 

Also, Sanderson later said it wasn't tens of thousands in TR. (I know made no sense right, that's how it seemed to me too).

 

That being said, yes 2 freaking years to adapt to something you can't change is too damn long in my opinion. Somethings just need to be accepted and dealt with. Buck up chum and carry on. Don't complian and moan.

[safwd]

This is starting to get crazy.

At the start of the series Perrin (and the other wonderboys) are all of 20 years old. And not the 20 years old of nowdays either, these are extrememly rural farm boys with not alot of education.

He is pulled from the only home he has ever known. Forced into a war with creatures he didnt think actually exist. His best friend is the Dragon Reborn.

And that weired itch in the back of your head is wolves trying to talk to you, because oh ya, you can talk to wolves.

Suck on that 20 year old.

He is thrust into battles and a leadership role not long after that. Is he great at it, no, but he gets better as time goes by. Does he want the role, no, but he excepts it as time goes by.

And this large amount of personnal growth he goes through takes place between the age of 20 and 22.

What took you so damn long farmboy?? 2 freaking years to go from a blacksmiths apprentice to a Lord of the 2 rivers and one of the Dragons battle leaders. You should be ashamed. ASHAMED.

 

Who cares if he took longer to get there than Rand and Mat. Rand and Mat had more help that he did. Rand also had more people working against him but still.

All three characters should not have come into their own all in the same time frame, this is what we call character diversity.

 

The fact that he led the two rivers farmers against tens of thousands of Trollics and won, at the ripe age of 21, but didnt do it perfectly so people died is getting nitpicked is pretty sad.

The fact that it is then stated that a whole year later he led another group (of far better trained soldiers) against a larger force of Trollics and didnt lose anyone proves that he learned pretty damn fast to me.

And I am not sure he didnt lose anyone saving the White Cloaks, i dont remember it saying that but it is possible.

 

I'm fairly certain it was said. He lost none them.

 

Yes it's a lot of growing up to do, but it doesn't change the fact that he resisted as long as possible. As to the farmboy comments, eh, people go thru crap everyday, even in RL. People have their beliefs and foundations rocked and are forced to adapt. That's what picks out the winners from the losers, the strong from the weak, the ability and willingness to adpat and succeed. (They were 20 when this started? I pictured them more like 17).

 

Also, Sanderson later said it wasn't tens of thousands in TR. (I know made no sense right, that's how it seemed to me too).

 

That being said, yes 2 freaking years to adapt to something you can't change is too damn long in my opinion. Somethings just need to be accepted and dealt with. Buck up chum and carry on. Don't complian and moan.

 

I read the tens of thousands on another site, im not sure how many but it was alot.

And i cant agree with you on the last. I feel 2 years is a fine about of time to go from essentially a child to Commander of an army and leading them to what may very well be the end of the world.

 

And again, i would contest that in the two years Perrin has gotten more accomplished for the side of the light than Mat has. He may have whinned about it for a fair portion of the time he was getting stuff done but he got stuff done.

[Vardar]

I read the tens of thousands on another site, im not sure how many but it was alot.

And i cant agree with you on the last. I feel 2 years is a fine about of time to go from essentially a child to Commander of an army and leading them to what may very well be the end of the world.

 

And again, i would contest that in the two years Perrin has gotten more accomplished for the side of the light than Mat has. He may have whinned about it for a fair portion of the time he was getting stuff done but he got stuff done.

 

More accomplished? Mat is the reason most of the population isn't dead (Bowl of winds anyone) right now. Mat destroyed a AS killer. The Gholam could have wreaked havoc! Mat got the AS army on the move (with the band of the red hand) and allowed Eggy to take full control. Mat kidnapped the leader of perhaps the strongest single force in the world and tied a string to her. She will change. There will be ramifications from his meeting and falling in love with her.

 

Perrin did save Rand, with help, but I wouldn't say he did more. Other than that? Killed a madman. Saved his town, I mean sure that's some people but importance wise, his best thing was saving Rand.

[safwd]

Decimating the Shaido is pretty important.

Helping rediscover Power forged weapons is pretty important.

Saving Egwenes butt by bringing the dream spike to Tar Valon was pretty important (Granted that wasnt on purpose)

Foiling all of Greandal's plans, who knows what is left of her, was pretty important.

Bringing Gealden to Rand is pretty important.

Bringing the White Cloaks to Rand is pretty important.

Saving the two rivers was pretty important. Who knows what completely losing that place plus his father would have done to Rand. He wasnt exactly stable about then.

Dumai Wells pretty important.

 

Mat did do some fantastic things, perhaps even more when you add up The bowl, Tuon, Moiraine, Dragons and killing a Gholam put Mat in the lead but it isnt like Perrin was just mooning over Faile the entire time.

[Vardar]

Decimating the Shaido is pretty important.

Helping rediscover Power forged weapons is pretty important.

Saving Egwenes butt by bringing the dream spike to Tar Valon was pretty important (Granted that wasnt on purpose)

Foiling all of Greandal's plans, who knows what is left of her, was pretty important.

Bringing Gealden to Rand is pretty important.

Bringing the White Cloaks to Rand is pretty important.

Saving the two rivers was pretty important. Who knows what completely losing that place plus his father would have done to Rand. He wasnt exactly stable about then.

Dumai Wells pretty important.

 

Mat did do some fantastic things, perhaps even more when you add up The bowl, Tuon, Moiraine, Dragons and killing a Gholam put Mat in the lead but it isnt like Perrin was just mooning over Faile the entire time.

 

I never said he was mooning the entire time.

The whitecloaks is moot. That's not pretty important. How many of them are there left? Not many.

Gealden to Rand, Eh. Not many soldiers there, I wouldn't weigh that in.

Graendal, sure, I already said the wells. Two Rivers, like I said, I'm just not certain how "important" that really in in the grand scheme. Sure it would be a morale blow, but other than that? A couple hundred archers from the two rivers in the last battle will hurt, as will the few dozen channelers (If they're ready) but nothing like the weather fixes and Eggy as the seat.

 

Oh yea I forgot Mat got Moiraine, which given Min's visions we know Rand cannot win without her. So that alone puts him above Perrin. No way Perrin accomplished more than Mat. Now I'm not saying he didn't step up in the end, he just took his damn time and fought every step of the way.

[safwd]

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

 

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

[Vardar]

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

 

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

 

Touche! I never looked at it from that angle. I'l have to concede that point to you fully.

[Maleshub]

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

 

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

 

Touche! I never looked at it from that angle. I'l have to concede that point to you fully.

 

Perrin taking his time to accept his leadership role is a minor issue. The really big issue with him is his moral decay during Faile's kidnapping. He was willing to enslave Shaido Wise Ones for life to save Faile (200 Wise Ones were collared); which by the way gives the Seanchan a formidable group of battle channelers not bound by the 3 oaths. And he used the resources allocated to him to save Faile, using others to do and getting them killed to achieve his personal thingie.

 

Worst of all is how he just lost it when Faile was captured. One of the Wise Ones with him told him to get a grip on himself and quit acting like a fool. But he was so shell-shocked and out of it, not bathing for days, acting obsessively about the issue. He was the epitome of a failed leader. He pretty much forgot about his followers and only thought of them as tools to rescue Faile. He didn't even have the decency to give Aes Sedai permission to try and help the people of So Harbor when he could afford to let them stay for a few hours.

[safwd]

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

 

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

 

Touche! I never looked at it from that angle. I'l have to concede that point to you fully.

 

Perrin taking his time to accept his leadership role is a minor issue. The really big issue with him is his moral decay during Faile's kidnapping. He was willing to enslave Shaido Wise Ones for life to save Faile (200 Wise Ones were collared); which by the way gives the Seanchan a formidable group of battle channelers not bound by the 3 oaths. And he used the resources allocated to him to save Faile, using others to do and getting them killed to achieve his personal thingie.

 

Worst of all is how he just lost it when Faile was captured. One of the Wise Ones with him told him to get a grip on himself and quit acting like a fool. But he was so shell-shocked and out of it, not bathing for days, acting obsessively about the issue. He was the epitome of a failed leader. He pretty much forgot about his followers and only thought of them as tools to rescue Faile. He didn't even have the decency to give Aes Sedai permission to try and help the people of So Harbor when he could afford to let them stay for a few hours.

 

This one with the wise ones again.

What would you have him do, storm the city when they have 200 wise ones that are more than willing to blow you to hell?

He needed the Seachans help to take out the Shaido, he needed to forkroot to take out the channelers. His options at that point were to allow them to be collared, kill them while they cant channel or let them go and when the forkroot wears off they are going to be really ticked off.

He made the correct choice in my eyes.

It helps that i have the knowledge of the story and i know that Seachan will be on the side of light for the last battle.

 

Not much i can say about So Habor. Could he have let the Aes Sedai stay and try to help, probably. Do i think they would have been able to help, no. So it probably doesnt matter.

 

After the whole faile captured arc is over we hear numerous times how his people felt he was being a good leader during the captured time frame and that he kept them together. This is coming from those he commands.

Did he go over dramatic when his wife was captured, again, sure, but i cant fault him too much for that. Him saying that he would "Give up everything to save Faile" is different than actually giving up everything to save Faile. We dont know that he would have actually "World be Damned" it, and i dont think he would have.

 

And the point to his army being used for the personnal agenda, well guess what, that is every army that ever existed.

[Mr Ares]

It did not take Perrin the same amount of time to decide he had to lead. Mat and Rand had it figured out right after the Waste, Perrin was still struggling in the two rivers about being a temporary leader, or leading just so people wouldn't follow Lord Luc (which makes no sense at all either, I mean I understadn the guy was evil, but discount that and you come to a conclusion that he took command just to keep it from someone else, wth is he 5?)

It is entirely reasonable to take a position of responsibility or leadership in order to prevent someone less suitable taking that position. if anything, Perrin was acting as a leader before Mat, as Perrin was leading the TR - a position he never abandoned - during TSR, but Mat only took on a position of leadership in FoH, while trying to escape during the fighting against the Shaido. Plus, of course, one can hardly complain about Perrin being reluctant to accept his fate next to Mat "I am no bloody Lord" Cauthon. Hell, Rand was still fighting things up to VoG.

Mat saying I'm no Lord, is not refusing to lead. He led men while saying that.

And Perrin led men since returning to the TR - so he's been leading longer than Mat. He didn't refuse to lead either. So your point is that while leading men, he wasn't exactly happy about having to lead men? Same is true of all of the boys. Which was my point.

 

More accomplished? Mat is the reason most of the population isn't dead (Bowl of winds anyone) right now.

Mat's importance to the resolution to the Bowl of the Winds storyline was marginal. It was used without him, it would have been found without him.

Mat destroyed a AS killer. The Gholam could have wreaked havoc!

It never displayed much intention of wreaking havoc, though. Not much of an achievement. He killed something that tried to kill him. Tricky, but not massively important in the wider scheme.

Mat got the AS army on the move (with the band of the red hand) and allowed Eggy to take full control.

No. Egwene soldified control on her own. Mat did precious little to help here.

Mat kidnapped the leader of perhaps the strongest single force in the world and tied a string to her. She will change. There will be ramifications from his meeting and falling in love with her.

It might have bit repurcussions, but it hasn't yet. So I think you're speaking a bit too soon.

 

Perrin did save Rand, with help, but I wouldn't say he did more. Other than that? Killed a madman. Saved his town, I mean sure that's some people but importance wise, his best thing was saving Rand.

Perrin tied a string to the Seanchan, destroyed the Shaido, and indirectly helped to bring about Mesaana's condition (he brought the Dreamspike to TV, which kept the AS and BA in the area, rather than where they had a trap prepared. Thus negating their advantage, thus contributing to a WT victory. Really, it's all about spin. You want to make Perrin look bad and Mat look good, so you exaggerate Mat's achievements and downplay Perrin's. By the same token, one can downplay Mat's and exaggerate Perrin's.

 

Oh yea I forgot Mat got Moiraine, which given Min's visions we know Rand cannot win without her. So that alone puts him above Perrin. No way Perrin accomplished more than Mat. Now I'm not saying he didn't step up in the end, he just took his damn time and fought every step of the way.

Perrin saved Rand. Without Rand, Rand cannot win. Also, without Moiraine failure was almost certain - thus indicating that he could win without her, it was just much less likely. Thus Perrin has the greater achievement here.

[Vardar]

And Perrin led men since returning to the TR - so he's been leading longer than Mat. He didn't refuse to lead either. So your point is that while leading men, he wasn't exactly happy about having to lead men? Same is true of all of the boys. Which was my point.

 

What Perrin was doing originally in the Two Rivers hardly qualifies as leading. People followed sure, but he hardly led. My personal opinion, I know.

 

Mat's importance to the resolution to the Bowl of the Winds storyline was marginal. It was used without him, it would have been found without him.

 

False. His taveran nature was what caused Elyane and Ny to get caught up with Setalle and dragged to the group. Without Mat there, no bowl would have been found.

 

It never displayed much intention of wreaking havoc, though. Not much of an achievement. He killed something that tried to kill him. Tricky, but not massively important in the wider scheme.

 

Because it was focused on Mat because he hurt it. It wanted Mat dead with a passion. That's why it didn't wreak much havoc.

 

No. Egwene soldified control on her own. Mat did precious little to help here.

 

And how did she get the sisters moving? The Band. Without the band, no moving. No moving, no meeting up with those nobles and forcing the sisters to let her lead.

 

It might have bit repurcussions, but it hasn't yet. So I think you're speaking a bit too soon.

 

It's already having effects. Rand's meeting with Tuon, she mentions Mat, which sets Ny off, which makes Tuon think, causing her to go ahead with the attack on the WT, leading to Elayne getting the seat.

 

Perrin tied a string to the Seanchan, destroyed the Shaido, and indirectly helped to bring about Mesaana's condition (he brought the Dreamspike to TV, which kept the AS and BA in the area, rather than where they had a trap prepared. Thus negating their advantage, thus contributing to a WT victory. Really, it's all about spin. You want to make Perrin look bad and Mat look good, so you exaggerate Mat's achievements and downplay Perrin's. By the same token, one can downplay Mat's and exaggerate Perrin's.

 

Mat's string is bigger, there are plently of Shaido left, even if they stayed where they were, they were in no one's way at that location. Perrin also gave the Seanchan hundreds of weapons in the form of the Wise Ones.

 

It is all about spin, I agree. But to say Perrin did much more than Mat is just silly. Personally I'd give the edge to Mat, but they may be equal. (That was my original debate I believe)