Twice Dawns the Day

[yoniy0]

I might as well get my usual comment out of the way, since I've already posted here. For the record, this is far from the first thread about this issue, and we've most of us already said there most everything that's been said up to this point. Here goes:

If one determines to interpret this prophecy literally, one has to do so with care. The prophecy says nothing of two dawns (that is, the plural of a dawn, n., which an eclipse is strictly speaking not). It speaks of a day dawning twice (that is, two times in succession a singular day dawns, as in the verb form of the word, one of its meanings is simply 'to begin').

Again, this is only the literal side of things, and could certainly be considered too literal an interpretation. But if one is to advocate a literal interpretation of this verse, then it's simply a fallacy to base that interpretation on the distinction between the two nouns, 'dawn' and 'eclipse'.

[fikkie77]

That is why I said a *natural* eclipse could not possibly fulfill the prophecy, aside from the fact that eclipse ≠ dawn. And I don't see any reason to believe eclipses are naturally different in the WoT world.

Of course an eclipse could fulfill that prophecy! A prophecy can be fulfilled in three ways:

- very litteral

- from the viewpoint of an observer or a group of observers

- symbolic

 

The second way has happened before: the silver and golf viewing of Sheriam by Min. Fulfilled at her death in the way Egwene saw her execution (golden sunlight on her hair, silvery axe). I have stated elsewhere that the first sunlight after the full eclipse feels like a dawn for the observer.

 

BUT: you gave correctly given us much more hints about what is going to happen (very strange natural occurences, maybe even a reversal of time). So, I will say that the eclipse will not fulfill the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy, something else will. But simply saying 'eclipse is not a dawn' is just not correct. It might be if no other things were said about this event in the books.

[Pinzarn]

Since prohpecies are not a exact prediction of what will happen, I think that an eclipse could fulfil the prophecy.

 

I can read the "Twice Dawns the Day" as...

 

In the standard day period, it is dark (normal night), becomes light (normal dawn), becomes dark again (the eclipse), becomes light (the end of the eclipse), and then becomes dark (normal night).

 

In the prophecy, dawn doesn't have to be the sun coming over the horizon. It could be as simple as light after darkness.

[Terez]

That is why I said a *natural* eclipse could not possibly fulfill the prophecy, aside from the fact that eclipse ≠ dawn. And I don't see any reason to believe eclipses are naturally different in the WoT world.

Of course an eclipse could fulfill that prophecy! A prophecy can be fulfilled in three ways:

- very litteral

- from the viewpoint of an observer or a group of observers

- symbolic

 

Yes, I know. Trust me, we've been through all this before a million times, here and elsewhere. The problem here is that he introduced the prophecy as a mystery to be solved. From a literary perspective, a mystery like this that ranges the whole series is best fulfilled as literally as possible, no matter how impossible it might seem. (Just as the Stone mystery prophecy was fulfilled literally, at least as far as the mystery aspect was concerned—the 'impossible' aspect.) The eclipse as a way to get around the 'dawn' problem was always the obvious answer, and therefore it's kind of a cheap answer, and I don't think it's what RJ was going for. If it was, I doubt he would have used the word 'dawn' in the first place; it's too disingenuous in the context. Add that in with the other clues he plants in the next few books, especially through LOC, and we have a good bit of reason to believe it's not the answer.

 

I believe the eclipse is a warning. "Against what do we guard?" "The shadow at noon." On the cover we see Rand going to Shayol Ghul with Callandor. We know he hasn't died yet; Whelan verified he only didn't want to show the stump. We know he has to die, so presumably something will happen at Shayol Ghul—probably, all that he is will be seized; i.e. he shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers—and Rand will have to be killed. Rand being one with the land, that's likely to have some disastrous effects, as we saw way back in TGH...incidentally before the 'twice dawns' prophecy was revealed.

 

Abruptly he felt his head grasped as though by a giant hand crushing his temples, felt himself being lifted, and the world blew apart in a thousand starbursts, each flash of light becoming an image that fled across his mind or spun and dwindled into the distance before he could more than barely grasp it. An impossible sky of striated clouds, red and yellow and black, racing as if driven by the mightiest wind the world had ever seen. A woman – a girl? – dressed in white receded into blackness and vanished as soon as she appeared. A raven stared him in the eye, knowing him, and was gone. An armored man in a brutal helm, shaped and painted and gilded like some monstrous, poisonous insect, raised a sword and plunged to one side, beyond his view. A horn, curled and golden, came hurtling out of the far distance. One piercing note it sounded as it flashed toward him, tugging his soul. At the last instant it flashed into a blinding, golden ring of light that passed through him, chilling him beyond death. A wolf leaped from the shadows of lost sight and ripped out his throat. He could not scream. The torrent went on, drowning him, burying him. He could barely remember who he was, or what he was. The skies rained fire, and the moon and stars fell; rivers ran in blood, and the dead walked; the earth split open and fountained molten rock...

 

PS—Also note that all three of these clues are in TGH. First Bors, then the Shienaran Welcome (from rising sun to rising sun, as long as the Wheel turns), and then the twice dawns prophecy, along with twice marked.

[fikkie77]

I agree completely, but...

 

Trust me, we've been through all this before a million times, here and elsewhere.

That line sounds familiar. You´re not able to channel both Saidin and the True Power are you?

[FarShainMael]

A possible interpretation of 'twice dawns the day that his blood is shed' might be that his blood is shed twice, on two separate days. And this has in fact happened - once when Ba'alzamon stabs him in the side with that staff (TGH47), and once when Fain slices him with the ruby dagger (ACoS36).

 

Pity there wasn't any Shayol Ghul rock around on either occasion..

[fikkie77]

once for mourning, once for hope...

so, what you say can't be what's meant.

More plausible is actually his death in the Age of Legends and his coming death in this Age.

But there are lots of hints that there will be actually a day with two dawns. Terez has all the clues if you want them.

[FarShainMael]

My comment about the Shayol Ghul rock was meant to indicate that I don't, in fact, think that between them Ba'alzy and Fain have fulfilled the prophecy; I just intended it as an illustration of the fact that 'twice dawns the day' can mean two separate days. Whether it does or not is open to debate!

 

I am aware of all the pointers to the likelihood of the sun appearing from darkness twice in 24 hours. Not least of these are:

 

From TSR header:

The Shadow shall rise across the world, and darken every land, even to the smallest corner, and there shall be neither Light nor safety.

 

From ToM Epilogue:

And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful.

 

So yes, I think we are going to see a normal daybreak, then a period of unnatural darkness blotting out the sun (NOT a normal eclipse), followed by a second dawn-like reappearance of the sun.

 

A poetical interpretation, not a literal one.

[Terez]

A possible interpretation of 'twice dawns the day that his blood is shed' might be that his blood is shed twice, on two separate days.

 

But if the sun sets in between, then the twice-dawning thing is hardly worth mentioning. I get that the prophecies are supposed to be difficult to understand, partly because of translation, but it's just too convoluted from a story-telling perspective.

 

I believe that Rand will probably die at some point during the eclipse—just after whatever happens at Shayol Ghul—and that the sun will disappear when he dies. When he's resurrected after three days, the sun will rise again, without ever having set, at least as far as anyone could see. The most logical explanation for that is either 1) the sky is dark for some other reason and no one on the whole planet can see the sun at all until it rises again, or 2) the rotation of the Earth actually reverses to pre-dawn, and the sun stands still for 3 days. There is foreshadowing for Nynaeve holding the sun down at dawn, which is part of why I like the second option, but the first is also quite possible and well-supported in the text, since Rand is the only reason anyone can see the sun at all, apparently. There are also a few foreshadowings for the sun rising at midnight, which would point toward the sun actually standing still (presumably in a pre-dawn position for the Randland continent, meaning it would be sunlight for 3 days in Shara and maybe also parts of Seanchan.

 

By the way, the sun appears to 'stand still' for three days near the summer solstice, but only as it relates to the sun's day-to-day position in the sky. And I was thinking the series was going to end up at Sunday somehow, but we appear to have passed that. (Steven Cooper estimated that Gawyn's battle with the Bloodknives was around Sunday, and it's been a month since then.)

[skyfirex]

I think the eclipse is a red herring and not the actual darkness > dawn.

 

From The Prophecies of the Shadow:

Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things

 

Emphasis on "Once again", which is from the Rhuidean Glass Columns:

What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it descended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white sphere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness.

 

Somehow, Rand's blood is key to releasing the DO:

And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful.

 

Let's see if I can tie in other concepts: The darkness will last 3 days while Rand is dead and resealing the Bore from within TAR. The second dawn will be on the morning of the third day(Day of Resurrection and Bore fully sealed) as the world didn't witness a sunset because of the darkness. 2 dawns without a sunset between, poetically a "day". Or if you interpret the day to mean "daytime" between sunrise and sunset.

[Kahsm]

If WOT ends with the Jesus story, I'd rather stick with our cliffhangers and speculations. That story has already been written (or recorded if you will). The fact that Terez' argument seems to be that writing something that we already know is somehow more plausible because it's more digestible as a reader is a sad state of affair -- if true.

 

I haven't been around long enough to gauge Terez' accuracy on things like this. But given that her predictions are often stated as facts (at least the first time around until she's forced to explain), and how her reasons are often based on how RJ thinks, feels, and writes, as if she lives in his head, I'm rather skeptical of her certainty.

 

That said, I have no reason to doubt her, other than personal disappointment. I'm could see 3 days of blackness. Not sure I buy time stopping, it could just be cloudy for 3 days and he happens to get res-ed at dawn on the third day. The perspective from the ground would be the same.

[Terez]

No one said anything about time stopping. The sun ≠ time. It's not going to end with the Jesus story any more than it will end with the Le Morte d'Arthur and Ragnarök and the story of Boann and the Dagda and Perun and what have you.

[Kahsm]

No one said anything about time stopping. The sun ≠ time. It's not going to end with the Jesus story any more than it will end with the Le Morte d'Arthur and Ragnarök and the story of Boann and the Dagda and Perun and what have you.

 

Fair enough, then I change my position to "I don't buy the sun stopping". there's no need for it to stop if it's dark out and no one can "tell time" from their perspective. I occam's razor away the unnessisary and extremely speculative planetary manipulation.

 

And the more similar stories there are doesn't make me any more pleased that another is being written in the same vein. I think you're right, I hope you're not, that's all.

[Terez]

If you haven't figured out yet that the entire basis for WoT is reverse-engineering real-world myths and legends, then I feel sorry for you.

[Kahsm]

If you haven't figured out yet that the entire basis for WoT is reverse-engineering real-world myths and legends, then I feel sorry for you.

 

That would be why I said I think you're likely right...?

 

However, that doesn't keep me from being disappointing that there isn't some twist on the ending to make it something new and exciting or maybe based on something much more obscure, which would be better than Jesus et al.

 

I'm starting to realize how someone who knows the books as well as you do can predict things based on RJ's mindset though. For example, I predict that your next post will be laced with condescension, derision, disgust, and/or vexation, for example.

[UncleButcher1980]

Terez, what does ≠ mean? You've used it a few times and it's bugging me that I don't know what it is.

[Terez]

However, that doesn't keep me from being disappointing that there isn't some twist on the ending to make it something new and exciting or maybe based on something much more obscure, which would be better than Jesus et al.

 

Who says there isn't a twist? I'm sure there will be several. For one thing, the sky was only dark for 3 hours when Jesus was on the cross.

 

I'm starting to realize how someone who knows the books as well as you do can predict things based on RJ's mindset though. For example, I predict that your next post will be laced with condescension, derision, disgust, and/or vexation, for example.

 

Nah, you have to try a little harder than that to piss me off, lol.

 

Terez, what does ≠ mean? You've used it a few times and it's bugging me that I don't know what it is.

 

It's a math symbol meaning 'does not equal'.

[Vassili]

If the Dark One can fix the seasons in place, something that would logically require manipulation of the orbit or axis of the earth, holding the earth and moon in place for a longer than normal eclipse probably wouldn't be a problem.

 

I don't think the DO could physically change the Earth's orbit, at least not in his current state. The change in Earth's trajectory probably would have noticeable and devasting effects beyond merely changing the seasons. And more importantly, there is no way the Bowl of the Winds could "reset" Earth's orbit.

 

I interpreted the DO's ability to alter the normal progression of seasons as global warming on steroids. There are other ways to warm the planet. Or cool it.

[fikkie77]

It is the Wheel of Time!

 

I think the Dark One will be able to adjust the direction and possibly the speed of time.

[yoniy0]

Terez, Kael, stop this argument here, please.

(No comments are necessary)

[FarShainMael]

It is the Wheel of Time!

 

I think the Dark One will be able to adjust the direction and possibly the speed of time.

 

In LoC Prologue, the DO says: 'EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME'.

 

So no, I don't think It can manipulate time like that.. or It would have been able to un-balefire Its chosen.

 

However, time can run differently in T'A'R, apparently.

[Naggash]

I believe that Rand will probably die at some point during the eclipse—just after whatever happens at Shayol Ghul—and that the sun will disappear when he dies. When he's resurrected after three days, the sun will rise again, without ever having set, at least as far as anyone could see. The most logical explanation for that is either 1) the sky is dark for some other reason and no one on the whole planet can see the sun at all until it rises again, or 2) the rotation of the Earth actually reverses to pre-dawn, and the sun stands still for 3 days. There is foreshadowing for Nynaeve holding the sun down at dawn, which is part of why I like the second option, but the first is also quite possible and well-supported in the text, since Rand is the only reason anyone can see the sun at all, apparently.

1) That could be a plain 3-days DO-eclipse as I said... (I'm not stating it don't bite me but bloody ashes it's very possible, Light burn me if it isn't!).

2) I like it but I don't think it will be that....too much power for the DO to manipulate either time like that or the heavenly bodies position.

[FarShainMael]

Slightly OT, but..

 

http://eclipse99.nasa.gov/pages/amazing.html

[Naggash]

Slightly OT, but..

 

http://eclipse99.nas...es/amazing.html

OT?

Anyways:

The longest duration for a total solar eclipse is 7.5 minutes.

DO

A total solar eclipse is not noticable until the Sun is more than 90 percent covered by the Moon. At 99 percent coverage, daytime lighting resembles local twilight.

Can that twilight resemblance match the 3 days pre-dawn or Nynaeve holding the sun at dawn?

 

Good page, didn't know half of it X_X

[FarShainMael]

OT = Off topic. Only 'slightly' because it's about eclipses, not about two dawns

 

I've twice been 'in' a solar eclipse here in the UK - once total (August 1999) only it was too cloudy to see the sun at totality ( ) and once partial (June 1954). The first time I was at school and it became so dark that the teachers had to turn the lights on. I wasn't quite 5 and it was a bit frightening! The second time it was more twilighty because of the cloud 'spreading' the light from outside the totality path. It got cold, dim, and very quiet, but not completely dark. It was certainly like pre-dawn.

 

However, I don't think '3 days pre-dawn or Nyn holding the sun at dawn' is what will happen. Let's look again at the Karaethon prophecy from TSR:

 

"The Shadow shall rise across the world, and darken every land, even to the smallest corner, and there shall be neither Light nor safety."

 

This seems to be saying that there will be darkness over the whole globe. There won't be a dayside and a nightside, separated by dawn and dusk; there will be no daylight at all. So no dawn.