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Ta'veren. Dreamwalkers in the Waking World.


Naggash
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This topic is raleted to this theory. It would be helful if you read it beforehand.

I agree with that theory, but wether you do or not, the main point I wanted you to look at was Rand's new "powers" as "Wakingwalking".

I will touch the subject from a PoV that can be accepted by someone who disagrees with the theory above.

 

We've been told many times that ta'veren are people around whom the pattern weaves. I won't explain the whole mechanism here. Well, my thoughts are that ta'veren are actually people that can impose their will, to a limited extent, in the WW as any other would do in the TAR. And, again same to those who visit TAR, they can be better at it or not. The difference would be that ta'veren nature is something you have or don't from birth (similar to being a Dreamer) and that your strength at it is also prefixed.

When a ta'veren is around odd things happen, and this may be a side effect of them not knowing the nature of their ability, ondulating from them unadvertedly. And also, when a ta'veren needs or wants something very hardly, he impose his will and makes others do things that they would never have done. For example the AS swearing fealty.

Another smaller facts like when Harine reveals the nature of her punishment may be just side effects too.

I know this is not as polished as it should be, but still i find it probable.

We have the moment where Rand theatens Cadsuane with forcing the Pattern to kill her. That gave me goosbumps, and I think it would have happend or at least damaged her if he had continued with it.

Also when he imposed his will against Tuon and she was almost unable to refuse when we all know how strong-willed she is.

And all of this when he had almost turned to his dark side (Dark-Rand 2.0 I think I read somewhere xD). So when VoG happens and he becomes truly himself for the first time since tWotW, as well as finding spiritual peace, he doesn't "gain" that ability to mend reality, but rather he was restraining himself all the time before.

 

Let me know what you think of it :D Terez please no expresionless qoute disarming my whole theory, at least put some spirit into it ;)

 

PD: I forgot to, once again, ask forgivenes for my writting and the difficults you may have understanding what I try to say. Thanks for taking the time.

PD: If you agree or find plausible the TAR-RW theory then my own should be more clear for you.

Edited by Naggash
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INTERVIEW: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

Ta'veren power is not the will of that person. It is the pattern. Rand being ta'veren and getting what he wants is because that the Pattern needs him to get what he wants. He is the Dragon Reborn.

 

When he goes against the Pattern, ta'veren will not work in his favour.

 

Remember good and bad things happen equally around ta'veren. It is merely a bending of chance. Rand certainly did not will people to die and houses burn down, it was an effect of ta'veren.

 

Ultimately, it is the Pattern that = ta'veren power, not the person themselves. One is not born ta'veren, it is not a power like channeling, granted to the person because they are special in some way.

 

It is the Pattern using a conduit to affect the world.

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It is unlikely that TAR is the real world. When people die, they do not go to TAR, (apart from the HotH).

iRJ and Brandon have given enough to suggest that the world currently in the books is the "real world"

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 2000

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

 

BETH SILVER FROM AUSTIN, TX

Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in WOT? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabbaticals?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife.

 

Rj has said that TAR =

 

. Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of all different worlds, which implies other worlds continue to exist. The World of the Finns is something different...

 

He also said this, mentioning the "real world" as the one Rand lives in.

 

Yes, the Parallel World, that one and also the one Rand and Lanfear visited are persistent regardless of someone from this world visiting. Yet, many of those seem almost shadowy and reflections of the real world, some of them seem as real just strange when visiting

 

Also, TAR does not have a reflection for Parallel Worlds, such as the Finns world. However, Finns still have souls. TAR is a part of Rand's world, not the Ogier or FInn world. They are different, yet still have "souls" from the soul pool or whatever it is.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Signing Reports - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

 

TED HERMAN

Do the Finns inhabit a perpendicular world?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

No, it is a parallel world.

TED HERMAN

Have the Finns existed as long as the Wheel?

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes.

TED HERMAN

Do they have souls?

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes.

TED HERMAN

Are the Finns from human stock?

ROBERT JORDAN

No.

TED HERMAN

Did they originate in their current location?

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes.

TED HERMAN

Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?

ROBERT JORDAN

No

.

 

 

It is possible that Parallel worlds have their own version of TAR though it is clear that they are the "real" world, not their reflections.

 

MATT HATCH

Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Possibly.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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hi there, nice idea, while i'm not too sure about the TAR in the waking world bit i don't think it's enough to say ta'varen are directed by the pattern.

 

sure the pattern puts people out to correct the pattern but the people themselves(and the types they represent) are part of the correction. in other words the they could be viewed as wind-ups set loose on the world with the strength to influence fate. their own free will is still a factor.

 

take the heros of the horn. the pattern decides it needs a silverbow type to work her influence on the world but that doesn't mean the pattern is at her shoulder, it needs her to make the decisions that she would make herself. the pattern is generally flexible, though there are time when things must happen just so there are also times when it works to accomadate the ta'varen like Mat wanting a win at dice (hardly a portentious event USUALLY!).

 

I think your linking the affects in TAR with ta'varen are at least a worthwhile prespective on the way the universe of tWoT works.

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The personal opinions and will of the person has no influence. They can be aware of their effects and use it to their advantage, like with the Sea-folk deal, but they have no say in it. All of them are pushed into situations they didn't want to be in. The perfect example is Mat in FoH, the Pattern, his ta'veren forces him into battle no matter what he wants. If he goes against the Pattern, the pattern will stop him, or simply revoke ta'veren status.

 

Mat winning dice is a side effect, it is not something Mat himself does. When he needs to win, he does. When he needs to lose, he does. It just so happens that Mat's wishes coincide with the Pattern. When it doesn't however, he cannot force his will.

 

Of course, the Pattern does not chose a Darkfriend or someone, it chooses or spins out a person who has the requirements. Thus, they are more likely to accept their fate.

 

Also, Rand's new found ability to make stuff grow etc.. is not really ta'veren, it is him being the Dragon Reborn.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

AZRAL HANAN (2 AUGUST 2010)

Why is the Dragon 'one with the Land'? Is it just due to him being ta'veren or is there more to it?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (2 AUGUST 2010)

More to it. More about being the Dragon than being ta'veren. Who he is

.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 1998

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

That would be pushing the laws of coincidence, if you wish to call them that, a bit far. What a ta'veren does, remember, in effect, is unwittingly bend the laws of chance to favor himself, and to affect other lives. What would happen one time in a million without him there will happen because he IS there. But there really are limits

.

 

I am not saying that the Pattern dictates every single move they make, for they do still have their free will, in certain circumstances. They can choose what to eat for breakfast, they can choose where there loyalties lie, who to trust and who not to. Their emotions are still their own. But I am saying this has nothing to do with Ta'veren. The Pattern bends in their favour because they are a corrective mechanism, and what they do (directed by the Pattern) helps. They cannot force their will upon their ta'veren nature. If it goes against what the Pattern dictates, it will not work.

 

Edit: There may be some connection to TAR, although there is no real evidence to conclude so. Whatever the connection, if there is one, has nothing to do with forcibly bending the Pattern to their will.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Still I think it can be possible. In situations that are only of their free will and not Pattern-disposed I think they have some control over it. I didn't say at all that they are in full control of it. In fact I do state that odds-messing is a side effect that has nothing to do with their desires. But I do think that when they are not forced by the Pattern thay can use it on purpose, see how he almost bent Tuon's will, and it was by his own will. If it had been a Pattern-designed effect Tuon wouldn't have been able to resist it, as it would HAVE to happen, for the Pattern needs it. But truth is what Rand was trying to accomplish there was not what the Pattern wanted, only him.

Besides, I don't see another explanation to Goku-Rand powers. It can't be something related to the Creator for he is outside the Pattern and does nothing to interfere. It isn't Power related either. The only thing I can think about is him being the most powerful ta'veren to ever exist, much more than Hawkin or LTT (if he was, I don't remember) (it always shocked me that thay said that he was maybe as strong a ta'veren as Hawkin was...he's the DR, of course he is as strong and much more I always thought, which also match the restraining part), and so he imposes his will to the world around, washing away the DO's touch. This doesn't mean that he bends the Pattern to his will, I never meant to imply that; the Pattern still leads him to the key points he must "achieve", and he has no freedom in these matters, but he of his free will decides that the touch of the DO must disappear and so it does.

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Still I think it can be possible. In situations that are only of their free will and not Pattern-disposed I think they have some control over it. I didn't say at all that they are in full control of it. In fact I do state that odds-messing is a side effect that has nothing to do with their desires. But I do think that when they are not forced by the Pattern thay can use it on purpose, see how he almost bent Tuon's will, and it was by his own will. If it had been a Pattern-designed effect Tuon wouldn't have been able to resist it, as it would HAVE to happen, for the Pattern needs it. But truth is what Rand was trying to accomplish there was not what the Pattern wanted, only him.

Besides, I don't see another explanation to Goku-Rand powers. It can't be something related to the Creator for he is outside the Pattern and does nothing to interfere. It isn't Power related either. The only thing I can think about is him being the most powerful ta'veren to ever exist, much more than Hawkin or LTT (if he was, I don't remember) (it always shocked me that thay said that he was maybe as strong a ta'veren as Hawkin was...he's the DR, of course he is as strong and much more I always thought, which also match the restraining part), and so he imposes his will to the world around, washing away the DO's touch. This doesn't mean that he bends the Pattern to his will, I never meant to imply that; the Pattern still leads him to the key points he must "achieve", and he has no freedom in these matters, but he of his free will decides that the touch of the DO must disappear and so it does.

 

This has been answered. It is not ta'veren, but him being the Dragon. He can affect things because of the nature of his "Dragon Powers" "The Dragon is one with the Land".

 

He could not force Tuon, because it went against the Pattern. When she saw the aura of Darkness around Rand, she resisted. Rand tried to use his ta'veren influence, but he failed. That is the point I was making. Ta'veren is still there, as it is always, but it does not conform to Rand's desires.

 

As I said, he can use ta'veren to his benefit, knowing that chance is affected, he can dictate a conversation and set terms, example being the Sea-Folk meeting, but that is the Pattern doing it, he is still only taking advantage of his powers.

 

In matters where the Pattern is not involved, Rand can't use it as a weapon to get what he wants. It is still a matter of bending the laws of chance. He can use that knowledge to help him, but it doesn't mean he is actually using his will to get something.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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So all there is to it is the Fisherking parallelism with Rand? Well....disappointing, I had hoped it would be something more WoT-worldish and deep. Phaw!

 

Haha, sorry, I don't make the rules. Ta'veren is SOMEWHAT involved, but not in the actual growing etc... It is like the whole thing in Bandar Eban with the "you opened the wrong sacks" part which is ta'veren. It certainly makes Rand's power more powerful, but it is the Dragon Power that actually makes things grow etc..

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This topic is raleted to this theory. It would be helful if you read it beforehand.

Thanks for linking that theory. I agree with it... obviously! :tongue:

 

I agree with that theory, but wether you do or not, the main point I wanted you to look at was Rand's new "powers" as "Wakingwalking".

I will touch the subject from a PoV that can be accepted by someone who disagrees with the theory above.

Nah, I don't think so. Quite apart from the quotes showing that ta'veren is not a controlled phenomenon (not controlled by the ta'veren, that is), there's also the fact that it isn't permanent. Both point to it not being an analogue of Dreamwalking.

 

That said, I do take the effects of ta'veren as further proof that the "real world" is a folding of TAR by the Creator/Wheel. Ta'veren exist as part of the rules created for that fold, allowing "impossible" effects in response to their presence.

 

@Barid Bel:

 

I don't see where you're getting that the Paralell worlds don't have TAR reflections. Steddings, for example, do have them. You just can't enter them from "normal' TAR. Remember that it has been told to us twice that TAR is the third constant apart from the DO and the Creator.

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I don't see where you're getting that the Paralell worlds don't have TAR reflections. Steddings, for example, do have them. You just can't enter them from "normal' TAR. Remember that it has been told to us twice that TAR is the third constant apart from the DO and the Creator.

 

I was not refering to stedding, sorry if I didn't make it clear. Ogier come from a different world entirely. A Parallel world, like the Finns, which have no connection to the TAR that the characters know. Thus, Ogier cannot dreamwalk. They don't exist in "this" TAR, not that they just don't have the Talent, just that they are not part of this world originally. They may have their own version of TAR, which would be different.

 

Edit: Actually, while I did write out a long reply I will leave it at this instead. It is not 100% confirmed, so the theory is valid. I still believe that it is untrue, various quotes and details support this, but quote from Brandon made me think that the theory may reveal more.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

That’s not a question, I’m afraid, that I can answer because I don’t think it’s within the scope of the books and I don’t think that the characters...that there are people that could know. You will find Browns arguing all of these different things among themselves, and it’s not my place to step in and end the discussion.

 

Alright, that sounds a bit pretentious, my meaning = I don't really think that this is something I wish to get into at this point, as he says, it is not within the scope of the books (not refering to this theory exactly, but multiple patterns/universes/reflections etc..) I cannot really give a qualified answer as we know too little of this to be certain.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I was not refering to stedding, sorry if I didn't make it clear. Ogier come from a different world entirely. A Parallel world, like the Finns, which have no connection to the TAR that the characters know. Thus, Ogier cannot dreamwalk. They don't exist in "this" TAR, not that they just don't have the Talent, just that they are not part of this world originally. They may have their own version of TAR, which would be different.

Ther versions of TAR... I don't see any evidence for that. TAR is one thing. There are parts of it not easily accessible to people in other parts of it. But that doesn't mean it isn't all one "place". I doubt it would be the "third constant" otherwise.

Edit: Actually, while I did write out a long reply I will leave it at this instead. It is not 100% confirmed, so the theory is valid. I still believe that it is untrue, various quotes and details support this, but quote from Brandon made me think that the theory may reveal more.

Yeah, I've seen that quote before. Obviously, I don't beleive any of this will be revealed in detail. Parts of it may come out if TAR is involved in the LB (which is a very good bet). But obviously, the entire metaphysics of the world won't be revealed in the books. The encyclopedia might discuss it, however. Fingers crossed.

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I was not refering to stedding, sorry if I didn't make it clear. Ogier come from a different world entirely. A Parallel world, like the Finns, which have no connection to the TAR that the characters know. Thus, Ogier cannot dreamwalk. They don't exist in "this" TAR, not that they just don't have the Talent, just that they are not part of this world originally. They may have their own version of TAR, which would be different.

Ther versions of TAR... I don't see any evidence for that. TAR is one thing. There are parts of it not easily accessible to people in other parts of it. But that doesn't mean it isn't all one "place". I doubt it would be the "third constant" otherwise.

Edit: Actually, while I did write out a long reply I will leave it at this instead. It is not 100% confirmed, so the theory is valid. I still believe that it is untrue, various quotes and details support this, but quote from Brandon made me think that the theory may reveal more.

Yeah, I've seen that quote before. Obviously, I don't beleive any of this will be revealed in detail. Parts of it may come out if TAR is involved in the LB (which is a very good bet). But obviously, the entire metaphysics of the world won't be revealed in the books. The encyclopedia might discuss it, however. Fingers crossed.

 

Yeah, it is a very interesting subject, and the more thought the better!

 

Edit: I got the whole Ogier can't dreamwalk here.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No Ogier cannot Dreamwalk

.

 

 

After re-reading the passage in tDR with Verin talking about TAR, I am unsure what she means. She starts by talking about the Mirror Worlds, and then explains the 3 constants, one being TAR. However, she goes off on a tangent about Parallel Worlds. She says "in all of these worlds", I cannot say if she includes the Parallel worlds, or if it was just a tangent. I actually think you may be right, that it does include Parallel worlds, it seems to suggest so.

 

So probably scrap the "different TAR" and you are correct in "different parts of TAR which are accessible to different people". Perhaps the Ogier can access their world's part of TAR.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Read at this please.

The army had plenty of coin. It needed food, and so it was time to try something different. Several of the men set down silver coins. Mat shook the dice in his hands, then tossed. Blessedly, the dice came up with one showing a single pip and the other showing two. An instant loss.

Talmanes blinked, and the men around the table glanced at Mat, looking chagrined—as if embarrassed to have bet against a lord who obviously wasn't expecting to lose. That was an easy way to get oneself in trouble.

"Well look at that," Mat said. "Guess you win. It's yours." He rolled the gold crown to the center of the table, to be split among the men who had bet against him, as per the rules.

"How about another?" Mat said, slapping down two gold crowns. There were more takers this time. Again, he threw and lost, nearly sending Talmanes into a choking fit. Mat had lost throws before—it happened, even to him. But two throws in a row?

He sent the two crowns rolling, and then he pulled out four. Talmanes placed a hand on his arm. "No offense, Mat," the man said in a quiet voice. "But maybe you should stop. Everyone has an off night. Let's finish our drinks and go buy what supplies we can before night falls."

Mat just smiled and watched as the bets piled up against his four coins. He had to lay down a fifth, since so many people wanted in on the toss. He ignored Talmanes and threw, losing yet again. Talmanes groaned, then reached over and took a mug from the serving girl, who had finally arrived to fill Mat's order.

"Don't look so grim," Mat said softly, hefting the pouch in his hand as he reached for his own mug. "This is what I wanted."

Talmanes raised an eyebrow, lowering his mug.

Mat said, "I can lose when I want to, if it's for the best."

"How can losing be for the best?" Talmanes asked, watching the men argue about how to divide Mat's gold.

"Wait.' Mat took a slurp of ale. It was as watered-down as Talmanes had feared. Mat turned back to the table, counting out a few more gold coins.

As the time passed, more and more people began gathering around the table. Mat made sure to win a few tosses—just as he had to lose a bit when spending a night winning, he didn't want to arouse any suspicions about his losing streak. Yet bit by bit, the coins in his pouches ended up in the hands of the men playing against him.

 

Mat does need the food for the company. But still, that kind of planification, winning just the throws he wanted, etc... I don't think the Pattern can interact so...schemy if that's how it's said Or intrincate or whatever. I find it too specific in the develpment of Mat's plan to be just Pattern-stuff.

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Of course it can.

 

That's exactly what Ta'veren is.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 1998

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

What a ta'veren does, remember, in effect, is unwittingly bend the laws of chance to favor himself, and to affect other lives. What would happen one time in a million without him there will happen because he IS there.

 

 

It distorts the rules of chance and coincidence. There are far more unlikely circumstances that occur around all the ta'veren. This is nothing special. Take Verin on her "journey" to Mat in tGS.

 

I am sorry, but you are mistaken in this case.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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But that's exactly my point. Mat can control it to some extent. If we wanted to win, then start losing, then win again, it would have been like that. He wanted to lose, then win, so it was like that. If he had come up with another tactic, he would bend luck for it to turn out on his favour.

It's not like when the Pattern makes him find battle after battle, or find the person he just needs with perfect timing.

In the Hinderstap scene he had freedom as of what to do.

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Trying to maintain focus but...

 

Of course if you consider that all people are threads in the pattern, and ta'veren like Mat are simply more obvious manefestations of the patten you could argue that everything is indeed the will of the pattern.

 

No need for free will unless that will exerted by Mat is the will of the pattern ie. the pattern needs a self-conciously lucky gambler.

 

There is no seperation between the pattern and the threads that the people represent but that doesn't mean the threads aren't to be valued for their ability to exert their seperated will about them. If i read the JR quotes correctly ta'veren means uber thread as aposed to normal dude thread, so the ability to use ta'verenness as a willed ability would work within the confines of the pattern.

 

More self directed than directed.

 

The snake eats its own tail indeed. :blink:

 

 

p.s. shout out to Bill Hicks: life it just a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves

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"uber thread as aposed to normal dude thread"

Can't figure out uber and aposed. Could you explain to me? Sorry for the trouble. I can't find them in the dictionary.

 

PD: All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream. Edgar Allan Poe. One of my favourite quotes.

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Alright, I will clarify my point.

 

 

Mat can control it to some extent, as you say. He has this ability, that brings him luck, he knows this. So he puts himself in a situation where he needs that luck to do something for him. Ie: He goes and plays dice to get some monies.

 

What Mat CANNOT do, is decide, "I am going to use my ta'veren ability to force this person to do what I say"

 

It may be that it turns out people do what he wants them to, however, he cannot dictate his wishes and force them upon people simply by being ta'veren. He cannot decide "I need this" and it will be so. It is a power dependant on the Pattern.

 

His free will still exists in most cases, he is free to do as he pleases, as long as he is in the right area at the right time. Sometimes his free will is great, at other times, like in Cairhien, it is strictly limited.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Alright, I will clarify my point.

 

 

Mat can control it to some extent, as you say. He has this ability, that brings him luck, he knows this. So he puts himself in a situation where he needs that luck to do something for him. Ie: He goes and plays dice to get some monies.

 

What Mat CANNOT do, is decide, "I am going to use my ta'veren ability to force this person to do what I say"

 

It may be that it turns out people do what he wants them to, however, he cannot dictate his wishes and force them upon people simply by being ta'veren. He cannot decide "I need this" and it will be so. It is a power dependant on the Pattern.

 

His free will still exists in most cases, he is free to do as he pleases, as long as he is in the right area at the right time. Sometimes his free will is great, at other times, like in Cairhien, it is strictly limited.

I agree to that. From the beginning I was saying that they could control it only to some extent.

 

"What Mat CANNOT do, is decide, "I am going to use my ta'veren ability to force this person to do what I say""

I never intended to imply that, sorry if it seemed so.

The only comment I gave about this level of control was about Rand "new powers" being an extension of his ta'veren nature, but someone already clarified me that this was a total different thing, only related to the Fisher King mith, which disappointed me a little :P

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:blush: apposed

 

uber- more so than, above. sorry it's a pop culture reference (and a german word actually).

 

To go back to part of your original idea, you'll note that it was the will power of the man in the MoL prologue (can't remember his name) in the creating the stone spear head that helped bring back some order to the pattern/minds of the man after the bubble of evil.

 

This reminded me of perrin trying to fix things in TAR, though with 'real' results.

 

anyway, probably not what your getting at.

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