Nynaeve, the most arrogant character in WoT?

[Suttree]

We have no proof that her Angreal is substansial. If it was, I would assume mention would have been made of it before now. I'd think at most, it would put her on par with Ny. (Similiar to Elayne and her Angreal she got from the stash). Logain/Taim/Rand would crush her with it. CRUSH. Hell, if I remember Flinn is pretty damn powerful himself, as is, Naeff (I think). Either of them should Crush her.

 

However we'll never know how powerful it is because it's never been mentioned specficially.

 

Ermm the Winters Heart Cleansing scene shows it is fairly significant....

 

As for her Parali-Net not stopping weaves once again you have offered nothing but personnel opinion. Evidence in the text and RJ's quote says otherwise(Cads never being worried around male channelers, her success rate taking them down including Logain while never having an issue dealing with them, the fact that it was created during the breaking to deal with men who could channel and it grows cool just like Mat's). Then there is this...

 

 

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

Robert Jordan

 

For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat's amulet. Cadsuane has one much like it. And I think that I will complete "Trust" eventually. I think about doing so every now and then.

 

If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it, until then stop just repeating they would "crush" her over and over as if by repeating it you can make it true. That net plus the angreal(not to mention all her years of relevant experience) makes her the equal of just about anyone in the series when it comes to a fight with the power.

 

Seriously mate, you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole here. You have misremembered a number of points and post #70 does away with any doubt that you have seriously misinterpreted her character. Power mad, no integrity, treats everyone like honor-less animals and is only trying to better herself? All I can do is my shake my head at that. What books are you reading?

[Luckers]

As too the Paralis Net, there's 0 evidence suggesting that it does stop male channeling, and if it did, it would be a HUGE thing. Think about how much excitment Mat's caused, because no one had ever heard of such a thing before. Of course now that I think about it, no male channelers have channeled directly at her in the series.

 

Getting the mission accomplished displays exactly what I was saying, selfish and uncouth. She decides that what she thinks is the most important, IS. Regardless of what else is going on, everything else be damned. Hell, I wish Dark Rand would have made her cease to exist when he was all Emo.

 

The two intertwined crescent moons works like Mat's medallion (as per RJ's direct comment). Mat's medallion blocks saidin just as it does saidar (we see Aran'gar attempt to channel at him in Salidar). She also has a well which would enable her to channel even if shielded, and a ter'angreal (I'm thinking one of the fish) which enables her to break a distant weave.

 

As for the rest, she decides what is important based on careful, extensive study of all the elements. She's also usually right, the one exception being the use of balefire--and in her defence based on every known bit of information she WAS right, and moreover, there was nothing to even hint at a potential value in the use of Balefire over other less dangerous weapons. Had Rand told her the realities of transmigration I have no doubt that she would change her position to permitting the careful selective use of balefire in executing Forsaken, if in nothing else.

 

Perhas more tellingly though, in the situations where she does have evidence to suggest doubt, she has not opposed Rand. Only when the evidence at hand supports her does she exert herself, and she studies that evidence with care.

 

Ok then, I'll break down Lucker's assesment of Cad.

 

1. She slaps Rand and insists he not use balefire [aCoS; 36, Blades].

2. She forces Rand to be polite to her [tPoD; 27, The Bargain], [WH;32, A Portion of Wisdom].

3. She forces Rand to be polite to his followers [KoD; 18, News For the Dragon], [KoD; 21, Within the Stone].

4. She attempts to force him to see her side of things following Semirhage's assault. [tGS; 23, A Warp in the Air]

5. She forces Rand to face his father, and through that the darkness that has grown within him [tGS; 48, The One He Lost].

 

You forgot a few. Just thinking back quickly:

6) forcing the Ashaman to be bonded, thru blackmail if I recall correctly

 

You don't recall correctly, I'm afraid. Cadsuane did not force the Asha'man to accept the bond, she blackmailed them to follow her lead--which I admit, I did miss. Once they were in the fold the Aes Sedai then talked them into accepting bonds on a one on one basis, with no coercion beyond the fear Taim had put in them, and that was in no way Cadsuane's doing.

 

7) Forcing Rand to come to her when he politely asked him to her. Regardless of who she thinks she is, he is a king. He sent a request for her presence, she was in his palace, she declined.

 

She didn't force Rand to do anything in that scene. She just didn't answer his summons, which is her right--regardless of who he is (and, irrelevant side point, he was not yet a king at that point in the story), she owed him no loyalty, and no obedience.

 

In point of fact, your point--that she should have been responding to him with the respect he deserved--would have been the dumbest thing she could have done--utterly counter-productive to her mission. Has she done so he would have dismissed her as he did all other Aes Sedai, and continued merrily on his path to self-destruction, thereby dooming the Light.

 

8) When she first met Rand, intentionally goading him to get angry so she could take his AS with her. In fact she never asked, she just took them. (After he flipped and yelled get out anyway, but she caused that)

That’s just a few.

 

She didn't do that to take Merana with her, she did that to gain a feel for his temprement. And the deductions she made from that were startlingly accurate given how short a meeting it was, so however unpleasent it may have been for Rand, and for those of us who hold Rand to be sacrosanct, her methods worked.

 

Ok, there are different types of Bullies and bullying. That’s pretty apparent. And bullying, like most any occupation or hobby, can be adapted. the most successful are generally those who adapt for the time. So I see your remark that since she uses different styles, that she’s not a bully, and respond with that’s exactly what makes her such a successful bully. There’s nothing subtle about spanking a grown woman. Nothing tactful about ignoring someone else and letting them speak then totally disregarding them.

 

No there is nothing subtle about spanking a grown woman, but there is about recognising a potential threat and instead of neutralizing that threat, explaining yourself to that threat and turning it into an ally, as she did with Verin. There is something subtle about the way she used Verin to apply the spadework for neutralizing the Councels in Far Madding.

 

And that's the problem with your position that Cadsuane is a bully, because it blinds you to the other things she can be. Yes, she DOES bully, and yes, the fact that she isn't a bully but rather utilizes bullying as a tool resulting in her vast adaptability is what makes her so very successful as a bully--that was in my arguments to beging with--but she is more than just a bully, and there are times when she's not a bully at all. Hence my disction--Cadsuane is not a bully, but she is a woman who bullies.

 

 

Also, fair is not a word I would use to refer to her. Anytime she seems fair, it’s all been because whatever action she “allowed” to occur furthered her means. She’s done nothing, nothing in the series that didn’t help her out.

 

Actually she's done nothing in the series that didn't help her mission, which is a subtle yet important distinction given her mission was to help Rand, ergo she's done nothing in the series that didn't--in her view--help Rand. She even promises it, and is thus bound by the First Oath to it. She is not there to help herself out, nor to help the Tower out, she's there to help out Rand--even if he doesn't enjoy it, which in truth was precisely the help he needed.

 

That being said, there are numerous times when Cadsuane is fair--to be fair, remember, doesn't mean to be nice, it means to balance all the points at hand and choose a response that is considerate and appropriate. For instance one of the moments when Cadsuane's sense of fairness shines out is when she drives Aleis into the ground--she doesn't like doing it, doesn't do it for pleasure--she doesn't even do it callously or carelessly. She acknowledges that she is destroying a good woman--and for Rand's sake does it anyway. But what she does isn't why I regard her as being fair minded here, rather that she doesn't shy away from what she is doing, or wrap it in justifications--she is considerate in that she considers the damage she is doing, and acknowledges it, and appropriate in her response--getting the Dragon out is necessary. But she doesn't allow one to cloud the other, she doesn't let the greater good sweep away her acknowledgement of the damage she was doing.

 

Another example is Verin--Cadsuane was wary of Verin, knew she was up to something, and she could have turned on her and destroyed her. Instead she chose to offer trust, and so doing she made an ally out of an enemy. Sorilea too--a barely-able-to-channel wilder savage who presumed to be Cadsuane's equal--on paper Cadsuane should have smacked her the heck down. Instead, based on a fair-minded assessment of the woman herself, instead of what she was on paper, Cadsuane acknowledged her as an equal, and potentiall a friend.

 

So when I say Cadsuane is fair, I do not mean she is nice--she has her nice moments, her concern for Nynaeve during the healing, the way she boosted Samitsu's faltering confidence, her compassion for Rand--but just with her nasty moments, she tempers it with reason and rationality, and after that consideration chooses a fair and appropriate response--which, depending on what is appropriate, can be nasty or nice depending on what is needed.

 

So, yes, I maintain that Cadsuane is both considerate and fair--in fact it is these traits that make her a successful bully.

 

I can’t say much here. Since all those things you mentioned help her towards her end goals, of course she did them. I’ll dare say fain may not have attacked him at all if she didn’t stop Rand from channeling (If I’m remembering that correctly).

 

Her end goals were make Rand healthy in heart and soul. To, by saving him from himself, save the world. Yet you speak as if in someone her holding to her mission makes her actions self-serving.

 

The fact of the matter is, when Rand has needed her, she has been there for him, even when she had strong personal reasons to oppose him she has set them aside and followed his lead. She has never--not once--tried to circumvent his orders or missions. Not even Moiraine can say that, when she went behind his back to try and keep the Aiel from crossing the Dragon Wall.

 

 

And no, you don't remember correctly I'm afraid. Cadsuane did not stop Rand from channeling.

 

I won’t remark on this. I don’t think Moriane’s way was the right way either, but then again Rand wouldn’t have been so distrustful if AS had treated him like an Adult from the jump and not like a child. yes he was young, but the world already rested on his shoulders. They were fools for not telling him what he needed/wanted to know. They bred that distrust in him. Dark Rand was a lot their fault.

 

I’m not saying Cad had to be a suckup, I’m just saying that she’s a rude uncouth lout who needs to be taught a lesson. My personal opinion is I’d rather her slay me that be treated that way by her. She treats people like honorless animals.

 

She treats people the way their actions suggest they be treated. When Rand is acting childish, she treats him like a child. When Sorilea is acting like a capable intelligent strong willed woman, Cadsuane treats her like a capable, intelligent, strong willed woman (even though everything about her, on paper, should have suggested that and Aes Sedai should treat her very different). And, when Rand acts like a grown man leading the fight against the shadow... she backs him to the hilt.

 

Incidentally, Cadsuane is the one Aes Sedai who agrees with your point about the other Aes Sedai. They did mistreat him, and much of what resulted was there fault. The difference between what those Aes Sedai did and Cadsuane's so-called 'mistreatements' is that she did not act toward Rand out of arrogance or a sense of manifest destiny, or sexism or any of the other things that have led Aes Sedai astray. Rather, she acts out of careful consideration--of both Rand as he is, and what would be good for him.

 

In so doing, no, she doesn't give him the respect he deserves as either the Dragon Reborn or a King... but she does give him the respect he deserves as a man, which is to say, in many cases, very little. Hence why people react so strongly to her treatment of him--yet, nonetheless, she is one of the very few who treats him as the adult he should be--by not putting up with his temper tantrums on the one hand, and by trusting him on the other.

 

Sadly, people always see the former, and then refuse to see the latter, or twist it so that they can claim she's just being self-serving, when in fact she is not being self-serving in either case, but is serving him.

 

Again, please cite an example of her being fair without it furthering her means

 

That's actually the first time you've asked me to do that--and why would I? The two are not mutually exclusive, and Cadsuane is a woman of singular vision. Her mission is never far from her sight, and I for one am glad that she was fair-minded in enacting it. If Cadsuane had truly wanted power and authority for herself, she could drive the world to its knees, Rand included. Oh, perhaps not in a one on one fight, but then Cadsuane is a capable woman, who finds the means she needs to achieve her goals.

 

Someone doing something just because it’s fair doesn’t do it only to better themselves.

 

And NOTHING Cadsuane did was to better herself. EVERYTHING she did was to serve Rand, even if he neither liked, nor enjoyed, nor wanted it.

 

Integrity? Don’t sully the word by using it to describe her. She has none.

 

Cadsuane has the greatest sense of integrity of anyone in the series. Greater than Lan's. Greater even than the Aiel. She never equivicates. Never shields herself in petty justifications or disregards elements of a situation to protect herself from guilt or blame. When she destroyed Aleis, she did it to free the Dragon, and could have wrapped herself in that necesity to ignore what she had done to a good woman. She doesn't, she faces it head on--does it because it IS necessary to free the Dragon--but doesn't ever hide from it. Hell, of all the Aes Sedai to consider the question of men bonding women, she alone acknowledges the hypocrisy of not liking it, but being okay with women bonding men.

 

Again, Loyalty, I’ll have to give you that one. She is pretty single-minded focused on helping Rand, in the way in which she sees fit. Just the wording of that quote “Any more than she had too” explains what’s wrong with her. Evil geniuses/dictators throughout history have used that phrase to rationalize atrocious acts, genocide, slavery, war, etc. Some of the worst acts of evil were not committed in blindness of stupidity, they were cold, rational calculated acts that were pure genius.

 

Actually, they do it 'for the greater good', or that they will 'do what they must'. Excuses for excess. Cadsuane is the opposite, she offers stricture against excess. And note that she is just as careful as she promised to be, pausing between each lesson to study the result before taking the next small step.

 

 

I think you have an interesting opinion, but I’d challenge you to deal with a power-mad individual like this for a day. Put yourself in a characters shoes. If you have any idea of your own self-worth, you wouldn’t put up with it for a minute.

 

Me? I'd offer respect and I've no doubt she'd offer me the same, provided I wasn't doing something foolish. Cadsuane is not power-mad, she's strong willed and doesn't suffer fools lightly.

 

Logain wasn't at his full strength at that point. No where near even. At that point, she was probably stronger than him. Rand stated many times men gain strenth in spurts, so this long after, I'd like to see her take Logain on.

 

Logain had been channeling six years by the time he had been captured. Men gain their strength much faster than women, and the longest a woman takes is about ten years. It is very unlikely that Logain was not at his feel strength by then.

 

As Luckers said above with that and the angreal boosting her strength she most likely could take down both Taim and Logain(again) individually. Rand until recently would have had a very difficult time.

 

We have no proof that her Angreal is substansial. If it was, I would assume mention would have been made of it before now. I'd think at most, it would put her on par with Ny. (Similiar to Elayne and her Angreal she got from the stash). Logain/Taim/Rand would crush her with it. CRUSH. Hell, if I remember Flinn is pretty damn powerful himself, as is, Naeff (I think). Either of them should Crush her.

 

However we'll never know how powerful it is because it's never been mentioned specficially.

 

It doesn't have to be substantial, even a weak angreal would bring Cadsuane to Taim and Logain's level, and likely beyond--incidentaly your not recalling that statement correctly. The angreal Elayne finds puts her at twice Nynaeve's strength, not on par with her. And, again, it is not just about pure strength.

[Luckers]

BTW, didn't Cadsuane have plenty of other Aes Sedai helping her when she captured Logain?

 

By inference, no. Cadsuane took Logain and then turned him over to the sisters hunting for him.

[Vardar]

We have no proof that her Angreal is substansial. If it was, I would assume mention would have been made of it before now. I'd think at most, it would put her on par with Ny. (Similiar to Elayne and her Angreal she got from the stash). Logain/Taim/Rand would crush her with it. CRUSH. Hell, if I remember Flinn is pretty damn powerful himself, as is, Naeff (I think). Either of them should Crush her.

 

However we'll never know how powerful it is because it's never been mentioned specficially.

 

Ermm the Winters Heart Cleansing scene shows it is fairly significant....

 

As for her Parali-Net not stopping weaves once again you have offered nothing but personnel opinion. Evidence in the text and RJ's quote says otherwise(Cads never being worried around male channelers, her success rate taking them down including Logain while never having an issue dealing with them, the fact that it was created during the breaking to deal with men who could channel and it grows cool just like Mat's). Then there is this...

 

 

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

Robert Jordan

 

For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat's amulet. Cadsuane has one much like it. And I think that I will complete "Trust" eventually. I think about doing so every now and then.

 

If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it, until then stop just repeating they would "crush" her over and over as if by repeating it you can make it true. That net plus the angreal(not to mention all her years of relevant experience) makes her the equal of just about anyone in the series when it comes to a fight with the power.

 

Seriously mate, you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole here. You have misremembered a number of points and post #70 does away with any doubt that you have seriously misinterpreted her character. Power mad, no integrity, treats everyone like honor-less animals and is only trying to better herself? All I can do is my shake my head at that. What books are you reading?

 

I missed the RJ quote. Seems like an cop out. If she's immune to channelling, she wouldn't have anything to worry about from anyone. Seems like something that powerful should have come into play well before now. I don't like that. (Personal opinion)

 

As for the winter's heart cleansing scene, did she take any Forsaken on 1v1? I don't recall her doing so. She stopped some long range attacks, but none head on. I'll go back and reread.

 

Actually, you didn't quote me as misremembering anything. I wasn't aware of the RJ quote. and now I see it.

[Vardar]

You don't recall correctly, I'm afraid. Cadsuane did not force the Asha'man to accept the bond, she blackmailed them to follow her lead--which I admit, I did miss. Once they were in the fold the Aes Sedai then talked them into accepting bonds on a one on one basis, with no coercion beyond the fear Taim had put in them, and that was in no way Cadsuane's doing.

 

After the attack, the next Cad POV we have her thinking how she “suggested” it would be in the best interest of the Ashamen to let themselves be bonded by her cartel. I stopped my reread, but I’ll go back through when I get home and get an exact quote.

 

She didn't force Rand to do anything in that scene. She just didn't answer his summons, which is her right--regardless of who he is (and, irrelevant side point, he was not yet a king at that point in the story), she owed him no loyalty, and no obedience.

 

In point of fact, your point--that she should have been responding to him with the respect he deserved--would have been the dumbest thing she could have done--utterly counter-productive to her mission. Has she done so he would have dismissed her as he did all other Aes Sedai, and continued merrily on his path to self-destruction, thereby dooming the Light.

She did. She knew he wanted to see her, to hear her advice, and instead of coming to him, following a respectful request, she wanted him to snap, get angry, and come to her like some errand/page boy. Not a king? Was he not ruling two nations, and essentially the Aiel making it 3? He was a king in all but name. He had control of the palace, and she was staying in it. You don’t stay in someone’s home and refuse a polite request to speak with them.

 

She didn't do that to take Merana with her, she did that to gain a feel for his temprement. And the deductions she made from that were startlingly accurate given how short a meeting it was, so however unpleasent it may have been for Rand, and for those of us who hold Rand to be sacrosanct, her methods worked.

 

I’m not saying her methods didn’t work, I’m saying they were rude and unnecessary. She took Merana to find out things, if she’s half as intelligent as you claim (I won’t deny that she is) then she wanted her company as soon as she noted that she was in the room, which was probably before she entered.

 

No there is nothing subtle about spanking a grown woman, but there is about recognising a potential threat and instead of neutralizing that threat, explaining yourself to that threat and turning it into an ally, as she did with Verin. There is something subtle about the way she used Verin to apply the spadework for neutralizing the Councels in Far Madding.

 

And that's the problem with your position that Cadsuane is a bully, because it blinds you to the other things she can be. Yes, she DOES bully, and yes, the fact that she isn't a bully but rather utilizes bullying as a tool resulting in her vast adaptability is what makes her so very successful as a bully--that was in my arguments to beging with--but she is more than just a bully, and there are times when she's not a bully at all. Hence my disction--Cadsuane is not a bully, but she is a woman who bullies

 

Now here I suppose we shall have to disagree. You claim she’s just a woman who bullies when necessary, well it’s akin to calling someone who murders when necessary not a murderer. She is a bully who understands that bullying doesn’t always work, hence she’s a really successful bully. A bad or stupid bully would try to bully anything and everything regardless, to his/her own destruction. The really successful ones adapt when necessary without giving up their bullying ways.

 

Actually she's done nothing in the series that didn't help her mission, which is a subtle yet important distinction given her mission was to help Rand, ergo she's done nothing in the series that didn't--in her view--help Rand. She even promises it, and is thus bound by the First Oath to it. She is not there to help herself out, nor to help the Tower out, she's there to help out Rand--even if he doesn't enjoy it, which in truth was precisely the help he needed

 

Essentially what I said.

 

That being said, there are numerous times when Cadsuane is fair--to be fair, remember, doesn't mean to be nice, it means to balance all the points at hand and choose a response that is considerate and appropriate. For instance one of the moments when Cadsuane's sense of fairness shines out is when she drives Aleis into the ground--she doesn't like doing it, doesn't do it for pleasure--she doesn't even do it callously or carelessly. She acknowledges that she is destroying a good woman--and for Rand's sake does it anyway. But what she does isn't why I regard her as being fair minded here, rather that she doesn't shy away from what she is doing, or wrap it in justifications--she is considerate in that she considers the damage she is doing, and acknowledges it, and appropriate in her response--getting the Dragon out is necessary. But she doesn't allow one to cloud the other, she doesn't let the greater good sweep away her acknowledgement of the damage she was doing.

 

Another example is Verin--Cadsuane was wary of Verin, knew she was up to something, and she could have turned on her and destroyed her. Instead she chose to offer trust, and so doing she made an ally out of an enemy. Sorilea too--a barely-able-to-channel wilder savage who presumed to be Cadsuane's equal--on paper Cadsuane should have smacked her the heck down. Instead, based on a fair-minded assessment of the woman herself, instead of what she was on paper, Cadsuane acknowledged her as an equal, and potentiall a friend.

 

So when I say Cadsuane is fair, I do not mean she is nice--she has her nice moments, her concern for Nynaeve during the healing, the way she boosted Samitsu's faltering confidence, her compassion for Rand--but just with her nasty moments, she tempers it with reason and rationality, and after that consideration chooses a fair and appropriate response--which, depending on what is appropriate, can be nasty or nice depending on what is needed.

 

So, yes, I maintain that Cadsuane is both considerate and fair--in fact it is these traits that make her a successful bully.

 

I agree with the nice portion. I use that rhetoric in my life. But none of what you mentioned there shows her as fair. All it shows her is willing to put up with anything or do anything to further her ends. Perhaps we’re using different definitions of Fair here.

 

Fair: free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.

What she does, she does to further her means. Now, her ends match Rands I suppose, to see him to the last battle, but doing what she feels is necessary does not make her fair, it makes her ruthless.

Her end goals were make Rand healthy in heart and soul. To, by saving him from himself, save the world. Yet you speak as if in someone her holding to her mission makes her actions self-serving.

 

The fact of the matter is, when Rand has needed her, she has been there for him, even when she had strong personal reasons to oppose him she has set them aside and followed his lead. She has never--not once--tried to circumvent his orders or missions. Not even Moiraine can say that, when she went behind his back to try and keep the Aiel from crossing the Dragon Wall.

 

 

And no, you don't remember correctly I'm afraid. Cadsuane did not stop Rand from channeling.

Oh I do recall correctly. Didn’t she tell him not to channel and reveal himself, which is why the 3 AS took up points surrounding him to keep him safe? She slapped him after he channeled anyway, and it happened to be Balefire.

 

Incidentally, Cadsuane is the one Aes Sedai who agrees with your point about the other Aes Sedai. They did mistreat him, and much of what resulted was there fault. The difference between what those Aes Sedai did and Cadsuane's so-called 'mistreatements' is that she did not act toward Rand out of arrogance or a sense of manifest destiny, or sexism or any of the other things that have led Aes Sedai astray. Rather, she acts out of careful consideration--of both Rand as he is, and what would be good for him.

 

Hmm. The first part, I can concur. The second part? No. Careful consideration, sure, but what’s good for him? I’ll go back to the tyrant argument. Many deplorable acts have been done based on what someone “felt” was the best thing to do. It’s a hell of a way to rationalize something, and nothing feeds it like a strong sense of self entitlement. Which Cad has to spare. She feels she is right, because she had the power to be right. I’ll admit she had the weight of her years backing her, but sometimes that makes people worse, pure stubbornness

And NOTHING Cadsuane did was to better herself. EVERYTHING she did was to serve Rand, even if he neither liked, nor enjoyed, nor wanted it.

No, she did it based on how she thought Rand would best be helped. There is a difference. Perception is the key here. Just because you think you’re helping someone doesn’t mean you actually are.

 

Cadsuane has the greatest sense of integrity of anyone in the series. Greater than Lan's. Greater even than the Aiel. She never equivicates. Never shields herself in petty justifications or disregards elements of a situation to protect herself from guilt or blame. When she destroyed Aleis, she did it to free the Dragon, and could have wrapped herself in that necesity to ignore what she had done to a good woman. She doesn't, she faces it head on--does it because it IS necessary to free the Dragon--but doesn't ever hide from it. Hell, of all the Aes Sedai to consider the question of men bonding women, she alone acknowledges the hypocrisy of not liking it, but being okay with women bonding men.

 

Doesn’t she think to herself that she’ll betray Soreila as soon as they no longer have the same goals? Being willing to do whatever it takes to do what you think is necessary doesn’t give you integrity. Although I suppose it can be twisted considering everyone has different morals and ethics, and as long as you stick to your personal ones you can have personal integrity.

 

Actually, they do it 'for the greater good', or that they will 'do what they must'. Excuses for excess. Cadsuane is the opposite, she offers stricture against excess. And note that she is just as careful as she promised to be, pausing between each lesson to study the result before taking the next small step.

 

Actually you yourself said up higher that she does what she does for what she believes is the greater good. Quote your breaking of what woman. She did that why? For the greater good. Exactly. Not the opposite, the same thing.

 

Me? I'd offer respect and I've no doubt she'd offer me the same, provided I wasn't doing something foolish. Cadsuane is not power-mad, she's strong willed and doesn't suffer fools lightly.

 

Was Moriene disrespectful to her in New Springs? Did she offer her respect? No.

 

Logain had been channeling six years by the time he had been captured. Men gain their strength much faster than women, and the longest a woman takes is about ten years. It is very unlikely that Logain was not at his feel strength by then.

 

I’ll grant you this point. I didn’t realize he ravaged the countryside for quite that long. He’d still be an extreme disadvantage having to discover weaves on his own.

 

It doesn't have to be substantial, even a weak angreal would bring Cadsuane to Taim and Logain's level, and likely beyond--incidentaly your not recalling that statement correctly. The angreal Elayne finds puts her at twice Nynaeve's strength, not on par with her. And, again, it is not just about pure strength.

 

May have to hand you this one too. I’ll reread to make sure. No it’s not about pure strength, but knowledge as well.

I still find it hard to believe that there’s a channeler wandering around with an Angreal that puts her on par with the forsaken (Which would still make it a weak one wouldn’t it, in theory Ny is on par with the forsaken) and immune to Sadian and no one knows or tries to take her out. Or better yet, she’s not out and about slaying forsaken with impunity. What would stop her?

 

Lastly, who said you can channel with a well while shielded? Did I miss that one somewhere?

 

Good discussion sir. I see some one your points, but I'd like to see any person claim they would be able to deal with someone like that. Being strong willed is not about running over people all the time. I know from personal experience. Sure you can, but where's the honor in that? There is none.

[Suttree]

I missed the RJ quote. Seems like an cop out. If she's immune to channelling, she wouldn't have anything to worry about from anyone.

 

Which is how she has handled herself from day one.

 

As for the winter's heart cleansing scene, did she take any Forsaken on 1v1? I don't recall her doing so. She stopped some long range attacks, but none head on. I'll go back and reread.

 

She didn't but the fact that she could hold up a shield against all of them while healing Nynaeve and blocking Forsaken level attacks such as ...

 

WH

Lightnings such as Cadsuane had never seen streaked down from the cloudless sky, not jagged bolts but lances of silver-blue that struck at the hilltop where she stood, and struck instead the inverted shield she had woven, erupting with a deafening roar fifty feet above her head.

 

Is fairly indicative of it's strength.

 

Actually, you didn't quote me as misremembering anything. I wasn't aware of the RJ quote. and now I see it.

 

Was referring to post #70, Luckers pointed many of the mistakes out.

 

Regardless those are all side issues. In my last post I summarized how you had characterized her...

 

Power mad, no integrity, treats everyone like honor-less animals and is only trying to better herself?

 

Again I can't imagine how anyone reading these books could reach that conclusion.

[Vardar]

Which is how she has handled herself from day one.

 

No I mean nearly the entire story would be moot. She could wander around slaying Forsaken when she felt like it.

 

She didn't but the fact that she could hold up a shield against all of them while healing Nynaeve and blocking Forsaken level attacks such as ...

 

WH

 

Quote

 

Lightnings such as Cadsuane had never seen streaked down from the cloudless sky, not jagged bolts but lances of silver-blue that struck at the hilltop where she stood, and struck instead the inverted shield she had woven, erupting with a deafening roar fifty feet above her head.

 

Is fairly indicative of it's strength.

 

Have we had indication that strength in OP suggests certain attacks will overpower others? No. Recall Rands thought that his shield he wove would stop ANYTHING short of Balefire. It appears that a weave is a weave (the handling of magic in this series) and if a shieldis woven, a more powerful attack can't just pierce it. (Not speaking of Shields with a capital S. In other words, if you're able to form the proper weave, me being stronger won't merely stop yours. Now this doesn't seem to apply to cutting weaves off and such. That's based on power. But nothing I've read thus far indicates that her shield working like a shield should means she's extremely powerful.

 

And again, if her Angreal did make her strong as the forsaken, and she's immune to channeling, why the storyline would have ended there. She could have walked about blowing them all to bits without fear of her life.

 

Was referring to post #70, Luckers pointed many of the mistakes out.

 

Regardless those are all side issues. In my last post I summarized how you had characterized her...

 

You referred to a post that came after yours?

 

 

Again I can't imagine how anyone reading these books could reach that conclusion.

 

Because of her behavior. That's how I read her. I've exlained myself, as I did in my last post. I've see no evidence that she is not self serving, it's just that she believes she's serving Rand by doing what she thinks best. I've seen her treat no one with the respect that they showed her. She runs over people with her sense of entitlement.

[Suttree]

Have we had indication that strength in OP suggests certain attacks will overpower others? No. Recall Rands thought that his shield he wove would stop ANYTHING short of Balefire. It appears that a weave is a weave (the handling of magic in this series) and if a shieldis woven, a more powerful attack can't just pierce it.

 

Wrong again.

 

WH

Even within the shield the air crackled, and her hair stirred and lifted. Without the aid of the angreal that looked a little like a shrike dangling from her bun, she would not have been able to hold the shield up.

 

You referred to a post that came after yours?

 

It was an edit, should have made that clear. My fault.

 

Because of her behavior. That's how I read her. I've exlained myself, as I did in my last post. I've see no evidence that she is not self serving, it's just that she believes she's serving Rand by doing what she thinks best. I've seen her treat no one with the respect that they showed her. She runs over people with her sense of entitlement.

 

Then you are ignoring what is written in the text as people have provided examples. Saying she is power hungry, has no integrity and that she is only out to better herself(you can not include doing what she thinks best for the world in that) is laughable. Provide quotes supporting your opinion as others have done or give over.

[Vardar]

Wrong again.

 

I'll concede the point, however it's still not totally indictive of the strength of the Angreal. But you may be right. It just makes 0 sense. None at all. Someone as powerful as the forsaken, immune to channeling (At least the male half) and her knowledge behind her, and no one else knows and she just doesn't go around blasting her enemies to death. Why wouldn't she? There's no reason for her not too.

 

Then you are ignoring what is written in the text as people have provided examples. Saying she is power hungry, has no integrity and that she is only out to better herself(you can not include doing what she thinks best for the world in that) is laughable. Provide quotes supporting your opinion as others have done or give over.

 

Good sir I'm ignoring nothing. I've offered rebuttals to the thoughts. Everyone reads something different. What I see is someone who has done nothing in the story that isn't selfish. Selfish being defined as doing something only because it furthers your ends. Every single thing she's done, she had done to meet her goal and only her goal. Everyone else be damned. She's never been nice to anyone, with the exception of Soreila (possibly) only because willpower met willpower and she understood she counldn't run roughshod over her. Hell, has she even said anything polite to anyone? (Serious question, I can't think of anything).Wait, she treats that really weak AS nicely, although it comes off more as the way a Suldam treats a favorite damae to me.

 

I've explained the integrity part. Defined it.

 

As for power hungry, I think I said power mad. She is power mad. Her behavior indicates it. For too long she was the single most powerful force in the world (One body) being the most powerful AS. She still has that mentality, as indicated in the way she treats people.

[Mr Ares]

I missed the RJ quote. Seems like an cop out. If she's immune to channelling, she wouldn't have anything to worry about from anyone. Seems like something that powerful should have come into play well before now. I don't like that. (Personal opinion)

Why would she not have anything to worry about from anyone? Her ter'angreal still leaves her vulnerable to mundane attacks and indirect channeling - she can't be touched by weaves, but you can use the OP to drop a boulder on her head. And when should it have come into play? She was introduced in book seven, and how many times has she faced off against channelers in that time?

 

No there is nothing subtle about spanking a grown woman, but there is about recognising a potential threat and instead of neutralizing that threat, explaining yourself to that threat and turning it into an ally, as she did with Verin. There is something subtle about the way she used Verin to apply the spadework for neutralizing the Councels in Far Madding.

 

And that's the problem with your position that Cadsuane is a bully, because it blinds you to the other things she can be. Yes, she DOES bully, and yes, the fact that she isn't a bully but rather utilizes bullying as a tool resulting in her vast adaptability is what makes her so very successful as a bully--that was in my arguments to beging with--but she is more than just a bully, and there are times when she's not a bully at all. Hence my disction--Cadsuane is not a bully, but she is a woman who bullies

 

Now here I suppose we shall have to disagree. You claim she’s just a woman who bullies when necessary, well it’s akin to calling someone who murders when necessary not a murderer. She is a bully who understands that bullying doesn’t always work, hence she’s a really successful bully. A bad or stupid bully would try to bully anything and everything regardless, to his/her own destruction. The really successful ones adapt when necessary without giving up their bullying ways.

Bullies typically pick on those weaker than them. The people they don't bully would be those perceived as being stronger. Rand is far from weak. He has great strength of will, he's strong in the OP, he has a lot of wordly power, via his countries and armies. At the same time, Daigian, an AS who is rather weak in the OP, is not bullied by Cadsuane. She shores up Samitsu's confidence, making no attempt to bully her. Who does she pick on, besides Rand? Well, no-one. And even with Rand, she doesn't do it to get power over him, she does it to help him, to make him stronger. That's atypical of a bully. Even a very successful one. It indicates that she is not by nature a bully, rather, that bullying is but one tool in her arsenal. One she has chosen with care, not simply a first resort.

 

 

That being said, there are numerous times when Cadsuane is fair--to be fair, remember, doesn't mean to be nice, it means to balance all the points at hand and choose a response that is considerate and appropriate. For instance one of the moments when Cadsuane's sense of fairness shines out is when she drives Aleis into the ground--she doesn't like doing it, doesn't do it for pleasure--she doesn't even do it callously or carelessly. She acknowledges that she is destroying a good woman--and for Rand's sake does it anyway. But what she does isn't why I regard her as being fair minded here, rather that she doesn't shy away from what she is doing, or wrap it in justifications--she is considerate in that she considers the damage she is doing, and acknowledges it, and appropriate in her response--getting the Dragon out is necessary. But she doesn't allow one to cloud the other, she doesn't let the greater good sweep away her acknowledgement of the damage she was doing.

 

Another example is Verin--Cadsuane was wary of Verin, knew she was up to something, and she could have turned on her and destroyed her. Instead she chose to offer trust, and so doing she made an ally out of an enemy. Sorilea too--a barely-able-to-channel wilder savage who presumed to be Cadsuane's equal--on paper Cadsuane should have smacked her the heck down. Instead, based on a fair-minded assessment of the woman herself, instead of what she was on paper, Cadsuane acknowledged her as an equal, and potentiall a friend.

 

So when I say Cadsuane is fair, I do not mean she is nice--she has her nice moments, her concern for Nynaeve during the healing, the way she boosted Samitsu's faltering confidence, her compassion for Rand--but just with her nasty moments, she tempers it with reason and rationality, and after that consideration chooses a fair and appropriate response--which, depending on what is appropriate, can be nasty or nice depending on what is needed.

 

So, yes, I maintain that Cadsuane is both considerate and fair--in fact it is these traits that make her a successful bully.

 

I agree with the nice portion. I use that rhetoric in my life. But none of what you mentioned there shows her as fair. All it shows her is willing to put up with anything or do anything to further her ends. Perhaps we’re using different definitions of Fair here.

 

Fair: free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.

That sounds like an accurate description of her methods. What bias, dishonesty or injustice does her behaviour display? If there is none, then she is fair.

What she does, she does to further her means. Now, her ends match Rands I suppose, to see him to the last battle, but doing what she feels is necessary does not make her fair, it makes her ruthless.

It doesn't make her unfair either.

 

 

And NOTHING Cadsuane did was to better herself. EVERYTHING she did was to serve Rand, even if he neither liked, nor enjoyed, nor wanted it.

No, she did it based on how she thought Rand would best be helped. There is a difference. Perception is the key here. Just because you think you’re helping someone doesn’t mean you actually are.

But you are still trying to help them, rather than acting from selfish motives. There is no difference, in fact. She does what she does to help Rand - whether she is accurate in that perception is another matter, but you do not state a diffference, you state the same thing with slightly different wording.

 

Or better yet, she’s not out and about slaying forsaken with impunity. What would stop her?

She doesn't know where they are, and they are very strong and very knowledgeable - the people best able to negate her advantages, in fact.

 

Again I can't imagine how anyone reading these books could reach that conclusion.

Because of her behavior. That's how I read her. I've exlained myself, as I did in my last post. I've see no evidence that she is not self serving, it's just that she believes she's serving Rand by doing what she thinks best. I've seen her treat no one with the respect that they showed her. She runs over people with her sense of entitlement.

If she believes she is serving Rand, then how is she self serving? She is acting out of a selfless desire to help someone else, according to your own assessment. Yet you reach a conclusion that doesn't follow from the premise. If she is wrong in her belief that she is helping, that doesn't make her actions selfish - they are not done to serve Cadsuane, they are done to serve Rand. In motivation they are anything but selfish. At best you could argue that her attempts to help were counter-productive. That would make her misguided, not selfish.

 

Wrong again.

I'll concede the point, however it's still not totally indictive of the strength of the Angreal. But you may be right. It just makes 0 sense. None at all. Someone as powerful as the forsaken, immune to channeling (At least the male half) and her knowledge behind her, and no one else knows and she just doesn't go around blasting her enemies to death. Why wouldn't she? There's no reason for her not too.

Maybe because she doesn't think that mindlessly blasting everyone to death is an appropriate response to most situations. It is still possible for a channeler to take out someone with a ter'angreal like Cadsuane and Mat have. We see Cyndane come face to face with Alivia at the Cleansing, and Alivia is borrowing Nynaeve's. She couldn't be touched by direct weaves, and with the angreal she was stronger than Cyndane - stronger than Lanfear was, even. Yet Cyndane was not "blasted to death". Given that Nynaeve possesses the same advantages of strength and angreal, why isn't she blasting all of her enemies to death. It makes zero sense!

 

Then you are ignoring what is written in the text as people have provided examples. Saying she is power hungry, has no integrity and that she is only out to better herself(you can not include doing what she thinks best for the world in that) is laughable. Provide quotes supporting your opinion as others have done or give over.

 

Good sir I'm ignoring nothing. I've offered rebuttals to the thoughts. Everyone reads something different. What I see is someone who has done nothing in the story that isn't selfish. Selfish being defined as doing something only because it furthers your ends. Every single thing she's done, she had done to meet her goal and only her goal. Everyone else be damned. She's never been nice to anyone, with the exception of Soreila (possibly) only because willpower met willpower and she understood she counldn't run roughshod over her. Hell, has she even said anything polite to anyone? (Serious question, I can't think of anything).Wait, she treats that really weak AS nicely, although it comes off more as the way a Suldam treats a favorite damae to me.

Just because evryone reads something different, doesn't mean all readings are equally valid. You cannot back up your assertions with textual evidence. On many points of fact, you are demonstrably wrong, and if your interpretation is based on a faulty understanding of the facts it does mean it is an interpretation with rather shaky foundations. Selfish is defined as: "deficient in consideration for others, thinking chiefly of one's own personal profit or pleasure, actuated by self-interest." That doesn't fit Cadsuane at all. She is driven by her goal, but does not lack concern for others, nor does she think chiefly of herself, her own profit or pleasure. Given that her goal is to help Rand, she is thus driven by a desire to help someone else. That is selfless, not selfish. And she was nice to Samitsu and Daigian. I can't say I remember her being nasty to Verin. So at least four people she has shown respect and politeness to.

 

As for power hungry, I think I said power mad. She is power mad. Her behavior indicates it. For too long she was the single most powerful force in the world (One body) being the most powerful AS. She still has that mentality, as indicated in the way she treats people.

Power mad? No, her behaviour indicates no such thing. It indicates confidence, adaptability, an unwillingness to suffer fools, a willigness to put herself second and her mission first, but not a hint of her being mad with power.

[TristanWebb]

Her goal to help Rand is only there so he won't completely destroy the world. She says as much, that the dragon winning as he is woul dbe just as bad as him losing. There is an argument to be made that she likes the way the world is because she gets her way in it, I won't make it because I don't believe it, but it is a valid one and can be made to fit the evidence.

[Vardar]

Why would she not have anything to worry about from anyone? Her ter'angreal still leaves her vulnerable to mundane attacks and indirect channeling - she can't be touched by weaves, but you can use the OP to drop a boulder on her head. And when should it have come into play? She was introduced in book seven, and how many times has she faced off against channelers in that time?

 

Sure they can do that, but in theory she should be able to destroy them while they're still figuring out she's immune to weaves. You weave at her, expect her to die, BAM nothing happens and she counterattacks. I'm not claiming that she has had the opportunity to kill many channelers yet, but my point was, (It's more of an issue with the RJ statement in my head and the assumption of the boards that her Angreal is substansial and puts her on the level of the forsaken) at this point what would stop her from going about slaying forsaken, and indeed whoever with impunity. Nothing! Nothing at all! She'd be the single most powerful force in the world. Sure you can drop a house on her, but her direct weaves still touch you, and that's much faster! It's like you have this story where everyone is struggling against forces that are at least equal if not more powerful than them, to save the world, and you have a freaking GOD on your side who can just go destroy your enemies.

 

It's the same issue I have with the idea that the end of the last book, those guys were Aiel male channelers who have been hiding in the waste. That makes 0 sense to me. I understand it's a fantasy world, however I try to apply logic to it. From a logical standpoint, Cad is too powerful (With the RJ statement and the assumption that her Angreal is not really weak) to exist and not be one of the most powerful forces in Randland.

 

Sorry if I ranted there for a bit, it kinda pisses me off.

 

That sounds like an accurate description of her methods. What bias, dishonesty or injustice does her behaviour display? If there is none, then she is fair.

 

Spanking Dignitaries just because they want to be spoken too with respect, blackmailing people (AS and Ashaman), admitting to herself she is willing to betray Soreila, that's three I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Maybe because she doesn't think that mindlessly blasting everyone to death is an appropriate response to most situations. It is still possible for a channeler to take out someone with a ter'angreal like Cadsuane and Mat have. We see Cyndane come face to face with Alivia at the Cleansing, and Alivia is borrowing Nynaeve's. She couldn't be touched by direct weaves, and with the angreal she was stronger than Cyndane - stronger than Lanfear was, even. Yet Cyndane was not "blasted to death". Given that Nynaeve possesses the same advantages of strength and angreal, why isn't she blasting all of her enemies to death. It makes zero sense!

 

Ok, I don't recall hearing Ny's net makes her immune to channeling too. Where did you get this? If I recall correctly Lanfear and Alivia were cutting each other's weaves, and Lanfear had the experience behind her to make up for the difference.

 

 

Just because evryone reads something different, doesn't mean all readings are equally valid. You cannot back up your assertions with textual evidence. On many points of fact, you are demonstrably wrong, and if your interpretation is based on a faulty understanding of the facts it does mean it is an interpretation with rather shaky foundations. Selfish is defined as: "deficient in consideration for others, thinking chiefly of one's own personal profit or pleasure, actuated by self-interest." That doesn't fit Cadsuane at all. She is driven by her goal, but does not lack concern for others, nor does she think chiefly of herself, her own profit or pleasure. Given that her goal is to help Rand, she is thus driven by a desire to help someone else. That is selfless, not selfish. And she was nice to Samitsu and Daigian. I can't say I remember her being nasty to Verin. So at least four people she has shown respect and politeness to.

 

Driven by her goals. What are her goals. Is she willing to give anything to see that she achieves those goals? Does she care who she runs over or destroys? No. You (and otherSs) have admitted that. It fits your definition, which you just posted. She's done nothing at all in consideration for someone else (Unless you count Rand, which I don't because getting him to the last battle is her goal, thus it's still for her). I admitted the Daigain part. Although she admitted it was only to further her means, because Daigain reports back to her, and she is able to listen in where other's cant because she is so weak in the power.

 

Also, what "textual" evidence have you offered? You want exact quotes? I see none in your statement sir.

 

 

Power mad? No, her behaviour indicates no such thing. It indicates confidence, adaptability, an unwillingness to suffer fools, a willigness to put herself second and her mission first, but not a hint of her being mad with power.

 

All those things you just mentioned, when in excess are qualities of those who are mad with power. Again, perception.

 

And Put herself second? When? Second to what? What has she suffered to achieve her goal? Not a damn thing. She's made other's suffer to achieve her goal.

[Vardar]

Her goal to help Rand is only there so he won't completely destroy the world. She says as much, that the dragon winning as he is woul dbe just as bad as him losing. There is an argument to be made that she likes the way the world is because she gets her way in it, I won't make it because I don't believe it, but it is a valid one and can be made to fit the evidence.

 

Interesting point as well.

[Suttree]

Maybe because she doesn't think that mindlessly blasting everyone to death is an appropriate response to most situations. It is still possible for a channeler to take out someone with a ter'angreal like Cadsuane and Mat have. We see Cyndane come face to face with Alivia at the Cleansing, and Alivia is borrowing Nynaeve's. She couldn't be touched by direct weaves, and with the angreal she was stronger than Cyndane - stronger than Lanfear was, even. Yet Cyndane was not "blasted to death". Given that Nynaeve possesses the same advantages of strength and angreal, why isn't she blasting all of her enemies to death. It makes zero sense!

 

Ok, I don't recall hearing Ny's net makes her immune to channeling too. Where did you get this? If I recall correctly Lanfear and Alivia were cutting each other's weaves, and Lanfear had the experience behind her to make up for the difference.

 

Think it's time for a reread my friend. Nyn has a net as well...

 

WH

And just in case she proved to be what they called a wilder, Cyndane prepared a small present for her, a reversed web she would not even see until it was too late.

Abruptly the light of saidar appeared around the woman, but the ready ball of fire streaked from Cyndane's hand, small enough to escape detection she hoped, but enough to burn a hole through this woman who—

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.

 

Alivia was more powerful than Cyndane and we know how that fight turned out. Your assessment of what it would mean for Cadsuane is not correct.

[muddasssir]

I guess we are as usual running around in a circle chasing our own tail. NO? isn't it one of the reasons that we love this series that characters have super powers but they are real. They are vain, foolish, regretful, proud, smart, humble loving, caring, vengeful and display the entire range of human emotional response. There is no black or white. You have to accept that good people are stupid sometimes and they make mistakes. For me it has been one of the defining characteristic of this series. It takes you outside of your comfort zone. Many people criticize that main protagonists do not die in this story. No, I agree but you do not get the twist in the [plot with that childlike ploy. Rather it challenges you to rise above your prejudices and accept the people as they are. To me at least this has been one of the most endearing traits of RJ's writing. Unfortunately, BS have not been able to handle it that well but still giving the limitations he has done an adequate job. I will never compare him to RJ but like many of you I have lived and breathed this story for close to two decades. Suttree, Theodril and many others will vouch for it that I dislike Eggy "dearest" with a passion but I will not have her written anyway else. She may not be much as a character but her impact on the entire series is enormous. I will continue to dislike Eggy "the exalted one" but I cannot deny that you cannot move the story forward without her arc. For me the biggest success of RJ was that he made us face our prejudices. He taught us if we cannot overcome our prejudices. At least we should try to not allow them to rule or cloud our judgement.

 

 

P.S If anyone thinks that I am not griping about Eggy "the chosen one" any more think again.

 

P.P.S feel free to rip it to pieces rest assured that I 'll pay back the favor. lol

[Vardar]

Think it's time for a reread my friend. Nyn has a net as well...

 

Please reread my statement and quote me properly sir. I asked if Ny's net made her immuneto channeling as well. This was never stated, apparently someone implied it on the boards. Ny's net also created armor right? They're not the same, paralis nets that is.

 

Alivia was more powerful than Cyndane and we know how that fight turned out. Your assessment of what it would mean for Cadsuane is not correct.

Then that makes no sense at all.

 

She's immune to Lanfear's channeling, and yet couldn't beat her.

 

Edited to add: For the record, whenever I read that scene, I assumed she reversed her flows, and thus hid them, which is why Lanfear didn't see her stop it.

 

And for the record, I started my reread today, just because of this thread.

[Vardar]

I guess we are as usual running around in a circle chasing our own tail. NO? isn't it one of the reasons that we love this series that characters have super powers but they are real. They are vain, foolish, regretful, proud, smart, humble loving, caring, vengeful and display the entire range of human emotional response. There is no black or white. You have to accept that good people are stupid sometimes and they make mistakes. For me it has been one of the defining characteristic of this series. It takes you outside of your comfort zone. Many people criticize that main protagonists do not die in this story. No, I agree but you do not get the twist in the [plot with that childlike ploy. Rather it challenges you to rise above your prejudices and accept the people as they are. To me at least this has been one of the most endearing traits of RJ's writing. Unfortunately, BS have not been able to handle it that well but still giving the limitations he has done an adequate job. I will never compare him to RJ but like many of you I have lived and breathed this story for close to two decades. Suttree, Theodril and many others will vouch for it that I dislike Eggy "dearest" with a passion but I will not have her written anyway else. She may not be much as a character but her impact on the entire series is enormous. I will continue to dislike Eggy "the exalted one" but I cannot deny that you cannot move the story forward without her arc. For me the biggest success of RJ was that he made us face our prejudices. He taught us if we cannot overcome our prejudices. At least we should try to not allow them to rule or cloud our judgement.

 

 

P.S If anyone thinks that I am not griping about Eggy "the chosen one" any more think again.

 

P.P.S feel free to rip it to pieces rest assured that I 'll pay back the favor. lol

 

I'm not saying Cad isn't an assest to the storyline, I'm saying if I were in the story, or if I had to deal with her in RL, I wouldn't. Period. One of us would have to die.

 

I agree with and enjoy your assesment however.

 

I will never agree with the people I'm debating with in this thread ,I honestly enjoy the friendly discourse. Nothing will cause me to change my mind about how I feel about Cad because, that's how I read her. Hell, we may all be debating something different. I'm not debating that she gets the job done, I'm just saying it's rude, and she's an ass (to put it simply) regardless of the reasons, my personal beliefs are you are never justified to be rude.

[Suttree]

Think it's time for a reread my friend. Nyn has a net as well...

 

Please reread my statement and quote me properly sir. I asked if Ny's net made her immuneto channeling as well. This was never stated, apparently someone implied it on the boards. Ny's net also created armor right? They're not the same, paralis nets that is.

 

Alivia was more powerful than Cyndane and we know how that fight turned out. Your assessment of what it would mean for Cadsuane is not correct.

Then that makes no sense at all.

 

She's immune to Lanfear's channeling, and yet couldn't beat her.

 

Edited to add: For the record, whenever I read that scene, I assumed she reversed her flows, and thus hid them, which is why Lanfear didn't see her stop it.

 

And for the record, I started my reread today, just because of this thread.

 

Not sure what you mean? I provided a quote showing that it does. Alivia is wearing a Paralis-Net, the weave unravels before it touches her, Cyndane says it must be a terangreal and you think she reversed her flow? They all work the same Cads, Nyn's and Mat's medallion in that they unravel direct weaves. What they don't stop is something thrown by the power or an indirect result of it such as a lightning bolt.

 

You keep saying it makes no sense and people keep explaining and providing more examples. At some point you need to reassess you stance.

[Vardar]

Not sure what you mean? I provided a quote showing that it does. Alivia is wearing a Paralis-Net, the weave unravels before it touches her, Cyndane says it must be a terangreal and you think she reversed her flow? They all work the same Cads, Nyn's and Mat's medallion in that they unravel direct weaves. What they don't stop is something thrown by the power or an indirect result of it such as a lightning bolt.

 

You keep saying it makes no sense and people keep explaining and providing more examples. At some point you need to reassess you stance.

 

 

She thought it must be one, althought she had never heard of one that did that. She was alive back when those net's were created (Per Rand/LTT). Yes, in my mind I rationalized it with Alivia cutting the flows with inverted weaves.

 

Why would I need to reassess my stance? Mat harasses channelers with impunity correct? I understand the idea that indirect channeling is not affected, objects thrown, or lightning called from a storm cloud (Direct lightning should be affected), so on one have you have a character that acts a certain way around channelers because of his protection, Mat, and now you suddenly have 2 new characters who have the same protection (News to me, provided by the RJ quote I was not aware of), so following the storyline, those people should behave in the same way.

 

But wait, add in the fact that these two people can channel themselves, and (With Angreal) powerfully, what force can stop them? You direct weaves at someone, in the time it takes for you to find out they don't work, what happens? Well in mat's case he takes control and spanks or approaches women. In Ny/Cad's case, they should attack the channeler and elimnate them, in theory.

Following logic, it makes no sense. In the time it takes someone to learn how to affect someone who is immune ot channeling (How long did it take 4 AS and Aven, 3,4 days?) in a battle situation, you'd lose almost everytime.

 

Perhaps you disagree, perhaps you're just arguing with me to argue. I'm not sure. I'm of the opinion, with this new information that was not known to me until yesterday, that the entire story now makes a lot less sense. A whole lot less sense. following a logical thought process, the forsaken should have been eliminated once they showed their faces. The shock over not being able to affect a channeler with a direct weave+facing a channeler as powerful or more powerful than themselves (since they lack angreal) would certainly mean their demise if the channeler knows that the hell they're doing.

[Suttree]

But wait, add in the fact that these two people can channel themselves, and (With Angreal) powerfully, what force can stop them?

 

Errmm Cyndane, as we saw her do against Alivia? There is direct evidence in the text that these items can be circumvented and we have seen a channeler be defeated and seriously injured wearing one.

 

Perhaps you disagree, perhaps you're just arguing with me to argue. I'm not sure. I'm of the opinion, with this new information that was not known to me until yesterday, that the entire story now makes a lot less sense. A whole lot less sense. following a logical thought process, the forsaken should have been eliminated once they showed their faces. The shock over not being able to affect a channeler with a direct weave+facing a channeler as powerful or more powerful than themselves (since they lack angreal) would certainly mean their demise if the channeler knows that the hell they're doing.

 

I am not arguing just to argue. I am presenting the facts as they exist in the text and author quotes. Paralis-Nets existed in the AoL but they may have served different functions. Per RJ Cads' one is a "breaking era" device(it is why Cyndane had never heard of the unraveling feature) where coming up with a way to protect against Saidin would have been a top priority. All you continue to do is offer your opinion of what should happen while everyone else has explained why that is wrong and offered what has happened. These devices do not all of a sudden make you invincible. What it does do is explain why Cads acts as she does around the Ashaman from day 1 and proves they most certainly couldn't "crush" her with ease, which is what started us off on this tangent.

[Vardar]

Errmm Cyndane, as we saw her do against Alivia? There is direct evidence in the text that these items can be circumvented and we have seen a channeler be defeated and seriously injured wearing one.

 

Just because the story presented it as such, doesn't mean it follows a logical line of thinking. Presenting something doesn't make it logical, at all.

 

I'll respond to the last part at a later date, most likely tomorrow, I have half a paragraph written up, but I wish to expand upon it and it's time to catch my train.

[Luckers]

You don't recall correctly, I'm afraid. Cadsuane did not force the Asha'man to accept the bond, she blackmailed them to follow her lead--which I admit, I did miss. Once they were in the fold the Aes Sedai then talked them into accepting bonds on a one on one basis, with no coercion beyond the fear Taim had put in them, and that was in no way Cadsuane's doing.

 

After the attack, the next Cad POV we have her thinking how she “suggested” it would be in the best interest of the Ashamen to let themselves be bonded by her cartel. I stopped my reread, but I’ll go back through when I get home and get an exact quote.

 

That would be appreciated.

 

She didn't force Rand to do anything in that scene. She just didn't answer his summons, which is her right--regardless of who he is (and, irrelevant side point, he was not yet a king at that point in the story), she owed him no loyalty, and no obedience.

 

In point of fact, your point--that she should have been responding to him with the respect he deserved--would have been the dumbest thing she could have done--utterly counter-productive to her mission. Has she done so he would have dismissed her as he did all other Aes Sedai, and continued merrily on his path to self-destruction, thereby dooming the Light.

She did. She knew he wanted to see her, to hear her advice, and instead of coming to him, following a respectful request, she wanted him to snap, get angry, and come to her like some errand/page boy. Not a king? Was he not ruling two nations, and essentially the Aiel making it 3? He was a king in all but name. He had control of the palace, and she was staying in it. You don’t stay in someone’s home and refuse a polite request to speak with them.

 

I'm sorry Vardamus, not coming when someone calls is not bullying them. Nor is it forcing them to do anything. Rand wanted her to jump when he snapped his fingers, she didn't so he had a temper tantrum and ended up looking the fool. She is at fault for none of that, he is.

 

And no, he was not a King. He didn't become a King until he accepted the Laurel Crown in Illian. Not that the fact that he was ruling three nations changes anything--he had no right to command Cadsuane, and thus no right to expect her to obey a summons.

 

She didn't do that to take Merana with her, she did that to gain a feel for his temprement. And the deductions she made from that were startlingly accurate given how short a meeting it was, so however unpleasent it may have been for Rand, and for those of us who hold Rand to be sacrosanct, her methods worked.

 

I’m not saying her methods didn’t work, I’m saying they were rude and unnecessary. She took Merana to find out things, if she’s half as intelligent as you claim (I won’t deny that she is) then she wanted her company as soon as she noted that she was in the room, which was probably before she entered.

 

I don't get why you're still talking about Merana--I've proven that Cadsuane did not bully Rand to attain a meeting with her, so what relevance does she have to this discussion?

 

Beyond that, you state that her 'bullying' Rand in that scene was unnecessary and rude--and I suppose had she done it to just get a meeting with Merana it would have been that, and stupid to boot--but again she did not. She did it to test the temprement of the man upon whom the fate of the world depended--a VERY important thing, given the severe personality problems Rand had.

 

This was, again, rudeness for the point of necessity, not unnecessary rudeness.

 

No there is nothing subtle about spanking a grown woman, but there is about recognising a potential threat and instead of neutralizing that threat, explaining yourself to that threat and turning it into an ally, as she did with Verin. There is something subtle about the way she used Verin to apply the spadework for neutralizing the Councels in Far Madding.

 

And that's the problem with your position that Cadsuane is a bully, because it blinds you to the other things she can be. Yes, she DOES bully, and yes, the fact that she isn't a bully but rather utilizes bullying as a tool resulting in her vast adaptability is what makes her so very successful as a bully--that was in my arguments to beging with--but she is more than just a bully, and there are times when she's not a bully at all. Hence my disction--Cadsuane is not a bully, but she is a woman who bullies

 

Now here I suppose we shall have to disagree. You claim she’s just a woman who bullies when necessary, well it’s akin to calling someone who murders when necessary not a murderer. She is a bully who understands that bullying doesn’t always work, hence she’s a really successful bully. A bad or stupid bully would try to bully anything and everything regardless, to his/her own destruction. The really successful ones adapt when necessary without giving up their bullying ways.

 

I could make the obvious semantic point--that we frequently don't call people who commit murder out of necessity 'murderers', for instance soldiers aren't labelled murderers, nor, officially, are executioners--I could, but its counter-productive because your missing the point.

 

My making the distinction between a bully, and someone who uses bullying, is not about saying Cadsuane doesn't bully people. She does. The destinction is about the why and the when and the how. By regarding Cadsuane as a bully--even when you're acknowledging that she is a clever one--you blind yourself to these elements, because bullies are blunt. They lash out to get what they want.

 

This is what led you into making the mistake of thinking Cadsuane bullied Rand to attain Merana. Bullies bully to get something. Cadsuane bullied, she got Merana, ergo it must surely mean she bullied to get Merana--except wait, she didn't.This is the exact logic that my distinction is there to protect against--because Cadsuane does everything with predmetitation and care. Regarding her as a bully infers that that is her nature, rather than it being a specific tool she's chosen to employ.

 

And that is why your attempt at the distinction--that she's a bully who recognizes that bullying doesn't always work--doesn't in itself work--because even when she DOES bully, she's not bullying the way a bully would--and if you need further evidence as to why this doesn't work, I point again at how it led you astray with your Merana conclusion.

 

Actually she's done nothing in the series that didn't help her mission, which is a subtle yet important distinction given her mission was to help Rand, ergo she's done nothing in the series that didn't--in her view--help Rand. She even promises it, and is thus bound by the First Oath to it. She is not there to help herself out, nor to help the Tower out, she's there to help out Rand--even if he doesn't enjoy it, which in truth was precisely the help he needed

 

Essentially what I said.

 

You said she did everything to help herself. I said she did everything to help Rand. The essential point of the two comments--who she was helping--could not be more different.

 

 

That being said, there are numerous times when Cadsuane is fair--to be fair, remember, doesn't mean to be nice, it means to balance all the points at hand and choose a response that is considerate and appropriate. For instance one of the moments when Cadsuane's sense of fairness shines out is when she drives Aleis into the ground--she doesn't like doing it, doesn't do it for pleasure--she doesn't even do it callously or carelessly. She acknowledges that she is destroying a good woman--and for Rand's sake does it anyway. But what she does isn't why I regard her as being fair minded here, rather that she doesn't shy away from what she is doing, or wrap it in justifications--she is considerate in that she considers the damage she is doing, and acknowledges it, and appropriate in her response--getting the Dragon out is necessary. But she doesn't allow one to cloud the other, she doesn't let the greater good sweep away her acknowledgement of the damage she was doing.

 

Another example is Verin--Cadsuane was wary of Verin, knew she was up to something, and she could have turned on her and destroyed her. Instead she chose to offer trust, and so doing she made an ally out of an enemy. Sorilea too--a barely-able-to-channel wilder savage who presumed to be Cadsuane's equal--on paper Cadsuane should have smacked her the heck down. Instead, based on a fair-minded assessment of the woman herself, instead of what she was on paper, Cadsuane acknowledged her as an equal, and potentiall a friend.

 

So when I say Cadsuane is fair, I do not mean she is nice--she has her nice moments, her concern for Nynaeve during the healing, the way she boosted Samitsu's faltering confidence, her compassion for Rand--but just with her nasty moments, she tempers it with reason and rationality, and after that consideration chooses a fair and appropriate response--which, depending on what is appropriate, can be nasty or nice depending on what is needed.

 

So, yes, I maintain that Cadsuane is both considerate and fair--in fact it is these traits that make her a successful bully.

 

I agree with the nice portion. I use that rhetoric in my life. But none of what you mentioned there shows her as fair. All it shows her is willing to put up with anything or do anything to further her ends. Perhaps we’re using different definitions of Fair here.

 

Fair: free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.

What she does, she does to further her means. Now, her ends match Rands I suppose, to see him to the last battle, but doing what she feels is necessary does not make her fair, it makes her ruthless.

 

Nope, that's exactly the definition of fair I'd use, and I stand by my examples. Yes, Cadsuane does what is necessary, but that wasn't the point--my point was what her assessments of her own actions were--and they are without fail fair minded.

 

Btw her ends very rarely match Rand's. Her ends were to save Rand from himself, and that intrinsically doesn't lend itself to agreement, or else Rand wouldn't have needed saving.

 

Her end goals were make Rand healthy in heart and soul. To, by saving him from himself, save the world. Yet you speak as if in someone her holding to her mission makes her actions self-serving.

 

The fact of the matter is, when Rand has needed her, she has been there for him, even when she had strong personal reasons to oppose him she has set them aside and followed his lead. She has never--not once--tried to circumvent his orders or missions. Not even Moiraine can say that, when she went behind his back to try and keep the Aiel from crossing the Dragon Wall.

 

 

And no, you don't remember correctly I'm afraid. Cadsuane did not stop Rand from channeling.

Oh I do recall correctly. Didn’t she tell him not to channel and reveal himself, which is why the 3 AS took up points surrounding him to keep him safe? She slapped him after he channeled anyway, and it happened to be Balefire.

 

And where in that did she stop him channeling? She takes on responsibility for the protection to shield his identity--which was rather nice of her--but she does not at any point stop him from channeling--as indeed he did channel. Where in that did she stop him from stopping Fain--because that's what you said happened. She stopped him channeling which enabled Fain to stab him. That did not happen.

 

Incidentally, Cadsuane is the one Aes Sedai who agrees with your point about the other Aes Sedai. They did mistreat him, and much of what resulted was there fault. The difference between what those Aes Sedai did and Cadsuane's so-called 'mistreatements' is that she did not act toward Rand out of arrogance or a sense of manifest destiny, or sexism or any of the other things that have led Aes Sedai astray. Rather, she acts out of careful consideration--of both Rand as he is, and what would be good for him.

 

Hmm. The first part, I can concur. The second part? No. Careful consideration, sure, but what’s good for him? I’ll go back to the tyrant argument. Many deplorable acts have been done based on what someone “felt” was the best thing to do. It’s a hell of a way to rationalize something, and nothing feeds it like a strong sense of self entitlement. Which Cad has to spare. She feels she is right, because she had the power to be right. I’ll admit she had the weight of her years backing her, but sometimes that makes people worse, pure stubbornness

 

And again I'll point out the rationalisation argument isn't applicable--Cadsuane does what careful thought and consideration of the evidence at hand tells her is right, not what she simply 'feels' is right. We know this as fact because we've seen her when she doesn't have enough evidence to make a decision in her own right--at the Cleansing, against the Seanchan--she falls in line.

 

And NOTHING Cadsuane did was to better herself. EVERYTHING she did was to serve Rand, even if he neither liked, nor enjoyed, nor wanted it.

No, she did it based on how she thought Rand would best be helped. There is a difference. Perception is the key here. Just because you think you’re helping someone doesn’t mean you actually are.

 

Except she was. I mean she was only wrong once, in regards to balefire, and that was only because all evidence availliable stated that she was absolutely, positively correct. The revelation regarding transmigration was something Rand concealed, and had he explained it I've no doubt she would have altered her position to permit specific, careful uses of balefire for the singular purpose of Forsaken execution. Other than that she was right about everything.

 

See this is what brings us back to careful consideration--she did everything she did to help Rand, based on careful consideration and thought. When that consideration didn't show overwhelmingly that she should oppose Rand--even when she had personal reasons to--she fell in line.

 

I get it, you dislike her so you want to make out that she's an arrogant self-entitled woman sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong based on nothing than her own sense of manifest destiny. This is, again, where your whole mentality of 'Cadsuane is a bully' is leading you wrong.

 

Cadsuane has the greatest sense of integrity of anyone in the series. Greater than Lan's. Greater even than the Aiel. She never equivicates. Never shields herself in petty justifications or disregards elements of a situation to protect herself from guilt or blame. When she destroyed Aleis, she did it to free the Dragon, and could have wrapped herself in that necesity to ignore what she had done to a good woman. She doesn't, she faces it head on--does it because it IS necessary to free the Dragon--but doesn't ever hide from it. Hell, of all the Aes Sedai to consider the question of men bonding women, she alone acknowledges the hypocrisy of not liking it, but being okay with women bonding men.

 

Doesn’t she think to herself that she’ll betray Soreila as soon as they no longer have the same goals? Being willing to do whatever it takes to do what you think is necessary doesn’t give you integrity. Although I suppose it can be twisted considering everyone has different morals and ethics, and as long as you stick to your personal ones you can have personal integrity.

 

No, she doesn't, she thinks that just because they have similar goals doesn't mean they have the same goals. She does not say she'd betray Sorilea, nor would it have been a betrayal if either of them later dissolved the alliance between them when it became clear their goals were no longer in line.

 

And I agree, being willing to do whatever it takes doesn't give you integrity.

 

 

Actually, they do it 'for the greater good', or that they will 'do what they must'. Excuses for excess. Cadsuane is the opposite, she offers stricture against excess. And note that she is just as careful as she promised to be, pausing between each lesson to study the result before taking the next small step.

 

Actually you yourself said up higher that she does what she does for what she believes is the greater good. Quote your breaking of what woman. She did that why? For the greater good. Exactly. Not the opposite, the same thing.

 

I was saying the difference between using that methodology to excuse excess and Cadsuane's method of carefully restricting excess were opposite. Cadsuane made many attempts to limit the damage done to Aleis and Far Madding, starting with having Verin provide all the spadework about Guire Amalasan and the triggering of the guardians, to the attempt to simply ask Aleis to give Rand over--it was only when these had been used up that she destroyed Aleis, and even that's a restriction against open violence.

 

Ultimately because someone acts for the greater good, doesn't mean that they are falling into the moral hole your drawing. The destinction is whether they use it as an excuse or a blanket wipe against moral responsibility. Cadsuane never does. Not ever.

 

 

Me? I'd offer respect and I've no doubt she'd offer me the same, provided I wasn't doing something foolish. Cadsuane is not power-mad, she's strong willed and doesn't suffer fools lightly.

 

Was Moriene disrespectful to her in New Springs? Did she offer her respect? No.

 

You missed the 'so long as I wasn't doing something foolish'. Moiraine, a sister still wet behind the ears, obviously engaging in some form of intrigue, was acting like a fool to her eyes, so she gave her a nudge to her pride to make her realise that she was not invincible and running around putting herself at risk needed to be done with care, and then set her some baby sitters until she grew a little older and wiser.

 

In any context but the search for Rand, I'd have agreed with Cadsuane. Moiraine WAS young, and she did indeed do several silly things that could have seen her dead--trying to take Lan's sword--if he'd been a different sort of man he could have killed her then as easily as dump her in the lake.

 

Logain had been channeling six years by the time he had been captured. Men gain their strength much faster than women, and the longest a woman takes is about ten years. It is very unlikely that Logain was not at his feel strength by then.

 

I’ll grant you this point. I didn’t realize he ravaged the countryside for quite that long. He’d still be an extreme disadvantage having to discover weaves on his own.

 

As I said, if he's learnt things in the past year, then so too has Cadsuane.

 

It doesn't have to be substantial, even a weak angreal would bring Cadsuane to Taim and Logain's level, and likely beyond--incidentaly your not recalling that statement correctly. The angreal Elayne finds puts her at twice Nynaeve's strength, not on par with her. And, again, it is not just about pure strength.

 

May have to hand you this one too. I’ll reread to make sure. No it’s not about pure strength, but knowledge as well.

I still find it hard to believe that there’s a channeler wandering around with an Angreal that puts her on par with the forsaken (Which would still make it a weak one wouldn’t it, in theory Ny is on par with the forsaken) and immune to Sadian and no one knows or tries to take her out. Or better yet, she’s not out and about slaying forsaken with impunity. What would stop her?

 

Their skill plays a part--we see this in the Alivia v. Cyndane fight. That and the fact that they're hiding.

 

Lastly, who said you can channel with a well while shielded? Did I miss that one somewhere?

 

RJ did. In my sig there is a link to 'Luckers frequently asked questions and theories', click on it, and you'll see one of them is listed as 'Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal'. That's a list I compiled containing a full list of each woman's jewellry (including description), what they do (where we know it) along with full citations of how we know. The 'well works whilst shielded' was from a Q&A.

 

Good discussion sir. I see some one your points, but I'd like to see any person claim they would be able to deal with someone like that. Being strong willed is not about running over people all the time. I know from personal experience. Sure you can, but where's the honor in that? There is none.

 

I personally think I could deal with Cadsuane, and deal with her well. And no, being strong willed is not about running over people all the time--but then Cadsuane doesn't. With Sorilea and several of the other Wise Ones, with Verin, even with Samitsu when she's having her little crisis of confidence, Cadsuane does anything but run roughshod over them. But, for me, the most telling is how she is with Rand when he's not acting the fool--the Cleansing jumps to mind.

 

But yeah, good conversation--sorry if I grew hot tempered at times. :)

[TristanWebb]

If you knew someone had a well, could you shield them from that inthe same way you can shield them from the source? It seems that in all PoVs that they always have a between him/her and the source, so that placement is specific. The key to most of the paralis net ter'angreal seems to be surprise IMO.

[thom_merrilin]

I think Cadsuane is along with Egwene someone who polarises the fans. Those who see her as arrogant, self-centred and smug. You'll have those who only see her bad points, and people who see only her good points, and those who refuse to see their bad points.

Every character has bad points, even Cadsuane, though their are some who will never acknowledge it. Personally I loathe Cadsuane, she even out does Faile in my eyes.

Yes, she has some redeeming features. But not many.

[Vardar]

I'm sorry Vardamus, not coming when someone calls is not bullying them. Nor is it forcing them to do anything. Rand wanted her to jump when he snapped his fingers, she didn't so he had a temper tantrum and ended up looking the fool. She is at fault for none of that, he is.

 

And no, he was not a King. He didn't become a King until he accepted the Laurel Crown in Illian. Not that the fact that he was ruling three nations changes anything--he had no right to command Cadsuane, and thus no right to expect her to obey a summons.

 

You choose to ignore the his house thing I mentioned. I’m not sure how you can say taking advantage of someone’s hospitality, and then refusing them a simple request for their presence is not rude. If you came to stay at my home, and I asked you to come talk to me and you said no, well bloody hell, why would I allow you to stay there if you can’t come talk to me.

A king is a ruler of nations, uncrowned, he was ruling those nations. A king in all but name. Didn’t Elayane call him that in the Stone?

 

I don't get why you're still talking about Merana--I've proven that Cadsuane did not bully Rand to attain a meeting with her, so what relevance does she have to this discussion?

 

Beyond that, you state that her 'bullying' Rand in that scene was unnecessary and rude--and I suppose had she done it to just get a meeting with Merana it would have been that, and stupid to boot--but again she did not. She did it to test the temprement of the man upon whom the fate of the world depended--a VERY important thing, given the severe personality problems Rand had.

 

This was, again, rudeness for the point of necessity, not unnecessary rudeness.

 

Still rudeness. Rudeness is always unnecessary in my book. (Different opinions on this I suppose, I’ve stated before that I refuse to be rude to anyone, including my worst enemy. It’s just wrong)

 

I could make the obvious semantic point--that we frequently don't call people who commit murder out of necessity 'murderers', for instance soldiers aren't labelled murderers, nor, officially, are executioners--I could, but its counter-productive because your missing the point.

 

My making the distinction between a bully, and someone who uses bullying, is not about saying Cadsuane doesn't bully people. She does. The destinction is about the why and the when and the how. By regarding Cadsuane as a bully--even when you're acknowledging that she is a clever one--you blind yourself to these elements, because bullies are blunt. They lash out to get what they want.

 

This is what led you into making the mistake of thinking Cadsuane bullied Rand to attain Merana. Bullies bully to get something. Cadsuane bullied, she got Merana, ergo it must surely mean she bullied to get Merana--except wait, she didn't.This is the exact logic that my distinction is there to protect against--because Cadsuane does everything with predmetitation and care. Regarding her as a bully infers that that is her nature, rather than it being a specific tool she's chosen to employ.

 

And that is why your attempt at the distinction--that she's a bully who recognizes that bullying doesn't always work--doesn't in itself work--because even when she DOES bully, she's not bullying the way a bully would--and if you need further evidence as to why this doesn't work, I point again at how it led you astray with your Merana conclusion.

 

I guess again here we’re going to have to agree to disagree. In the definiiton of Bully, it doesn’t use blunt. a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people. It does however use weaker, I’ll give you that. But there’s nothing that says a bully can’t be subtle or calculating. Hmm in fact it doesn’t even mention that they do it to get something, interesting.

Hmm, interesting point on the in her nature vs a tool that she uses to employ. What POVs are you using to claim that she doesn’t bully at times. The few times we’ve seen her not bully, is because she’s smart enough to know it won’t work (I.e. with the wise ones) or because she has no need to actively bully, because her reputation precedes her (Samuista and Darigian, spelling).

 

You said she did everything to help herself. I said she did everything to help Rand. The essential point of the two comments--who she was helping--could not be more different.

I said to get what she’s wants, what she wants is for Rand to live to see the last battle, so everything she does goes to that point. Since the two coincide, it can appear that she’s helping someone else, but in reality she’s doing what she wants, getting what she wants. Does that make sense?

If I want to get my mother a new job. And I do all within my power to get it for her, including screwing other people over, blackmailing others, etc, I’d still be selfish even though I’m doing it for someone else, because I’m doing it in the end, to make me feel better. Eh, this is hard to relate into words.

 

Nope, that's exactly the definition of fair I'd use, and I stand by my examples. Yes, Cadsuane does what is necessary, but that wasn't the point--my point was what her assessments of her own actions were--and they are without fail fair minded.

 

Btw her ends very rarely match Rand's. Her ends were to save Rand from himself, and that intrinsically doesn't lend itself to agreement, or else Rand wouldn't have needed saving.

 

Back to my dictator analogy. Who is she to decide she knows best? Her mindset is that way, that she KNOWS that she’s correct. Power mad. I stand by that.

 

And again I'll point out the rationalisation argument isn't applicable--Cadsuane does what careful thought and consideration of the evidence at hand tells her is right, not what she simply 'feels' is right. We know this as fact because we've seen her when she doesn't have enough evidence to make a decision in her own right--at the Cleansing, against the Seanchan--she falls in line.

 

Flawed careful consideration would lead to flawed assumptions and answers. I’ll just leave that at that, because again on this point, we’re going to have to disagree.

Except she was. I mean she was only wrong once, in regards to balefire, and that was only because all evidence availliable stated that she was absolutely, positively correct. The revelation regarding transmigration was something Rand concealed, and had he explained it I've no doubt she would have altered her position to permit specific, careful uses of balefire for the singular purpose of Forsaken execution. Other than that she was right about everything.

 

See this is what brings us back to careful consideration--she did everything she did to help Rand, based on careful consideration and thought. When that consideration didn't show overwhelmingly that she should oppose Rand--even when she had personal reasons to--she fell in line.

 

I get it, you dislike her so you want to make out that she's an arrogant self-entitled woman sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong based on nothing than her own sense of manifest destiny. This is, again, where your whole mentality of 'Cadsuane is a bully' is leading you wrong.

 

I’ve seen 0 valid evidence that she’s not a bully. But, we’re obviously using different definitions of bullies. You seem to think that you can bully everyone except a few choice people and be redeemed. I beg to differ.

Also, as to the soldiers, they aren’t murderers, what’s done in war, is not murder. Executioners however are, in my mind, and in the minds of quite a few people. It’s one reason I’m opposed to execution. But then again, that’s for a different discussion.

 

No, she doesn't, she thinks that just because they have similar goals doesn't mean they have the same goals. She does not say she'd betray Sorilea, nor would it have been a betrayal if either of them later dissolved the alliance between them when it became clear their goals were no longer in line.

 

And I agree, being willing to do whatever it takes doesn't give you integrity.

 

What was her quote right before Sor gave her travelling? I’ll stand by her until it’s apparent that we have different goals? Contemplating betrayal in my book.

 

I was saying the difference between using that methodology to excuse excess and Cadsuane's method of carefully restricting excess were opposite. Cadsuane made many attempts to limit the damage done to Aleis and Far Madding, starting with having Verin provide all the spadework about Guire Amalasan and the triggering of the guardians, to the attempt to simply ask Aleis to give Rand over--it was only when these had been used up that she destroyed Aleis, and even that's a restriction against open violence.

 

Ultimately because someone acts for the greater good, doesn't mean that they are falling into the moral hole your drawing. The destinction is whether they use it as an excuse or a blanket wipe against moral responsibility. Cadsuane never does. Not ever.

I can almost see that. (The bottom part).

 

As I said, if he's learnt things in the past year, then so too has Cadsuane

 

Not nearly as much as Logain (In theory) since he’s just starting to learn, he has potentially a lot more to learn. I mean how many weaves could he really have had when he faced off? Now he has a lot! How many new weaves can someone her age learn? Not nearly as many.

 

Their skill plays a part--we see this in the Alivia v. Cyndane fight. That and the fact that they're hiding.

As I stated up top, this makes 0 sense to me. I understand skill vs power and dexterity weaving the flows and what not, but at some point, it becomes a giant vs an ant. I know how it’s written, but seriously it kinda ruins things for me. You have nearly all the advantages, but OMG, Lanfear is old and knows stuff. So she wins. I call BS. It’s just no longer believable at that point, not a direct assault anyway. Once Lanfear attacked, and the weave melted, Alivia should have started a huge counter attack (Since she’s had how many years as a train weapon?) and blown her to bits, weave slicing or not. I mean Lanfear barely kept Rand in check, so let’s use that as an example. Rand was not trying to kill her, so that helped Lanfear, She was trying to kill Rand, that helped Lanfear, and Lanfear was stronger than she is now. So, all those things added up, now same situation, but now Lanfear is weaker, and her opponent, is Stronger than Rand was then (Rand would have been near Lanfear’s power level at the time), immune to direct attacks (So she doesn’t have to cut the weaves like Rand had too) Can see her weaves (Rand couldn’t) and has vastly more experience attacking with the power than Rand did at the time. So all those things, Rand managed to hold Lanfear off that first time, same situation, all points to Alivia and she can’t smash her? Oh come on! Makes no sense!

RJ did. In my sig there is a link to 'Luckers frequently asked questions and theories', click on it, and you'll see one of them is listed as 'Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal'. That's a list I compiled containing a full list of each woman's jewellry (including description), what they do (where we know it) along with full citations of how we know. The 'well works whilst shielded' was from a Q&A.

 

Awesome thanks.

I personally think I could deal with Cadsuane, and deal with her well. And no, being strong willed is not about running over people all the time--but then Cadsuane doesn't. With Sorilea and several of the other Wise Ones, with Verin, even with Samitsu when she's having her little crisis of confidence, Cadsuane does anything but run roughshod over them. But, for me, the most telling is how she is with Rand when he's not acting the fool--the Cleansing jumps to mind.

 

But yeah, good conversation--sorry if I grew hot tempered at times. :)

 

This I know, I’m extremely strong willed (or I have a strong personality as I like to say) and I refuse to run over people (unless necessary, ironic I know). And I deplore people who do it. I feel it’s a gift that should be used responsibly.

It’s cool. I really enjoy good debates, thanks for keeping it civil. This weekend I plan on questioning a few of my WoT friends and seeing if they knew those net’s made the women immune to channeling and see what they think about that.