Arthurian Legend and the Battle of Caemlyn

[bsmnt23]

Lan's charge is one of the Three Futile Battles that are aligorical to Authorian legend. The first being Maradon; a victory for the good guys and great for troop moral, but ultimatly pointless as the city was evacuated and all but destroyed anyway. The second is Lan's charge; it is impossible for him to acieve any kind of victory out of this and it can go either way; tragicly with the death of the remainder of the once-greak Malkeri kingdom and its king to no great puropse beyond signiling start of the Last Battle. OR (and far more likely) Sanderson tosses in an arse-pull with a last minute save probably by Logain and Alanna in some mannor which secures Tarwin's Gap with a huge wall built from the thousands of corpses of Trollocs. Third Futile Battle is Caemlyn, which we've seen starting at the end of ToM where Rand will die, as is his destiny and return. Lan's charge and the Battle of Caemlyn are probably happening about the same time.

[Suttree]

Third Futile Battle is Caemlyn, which we've seen starting at the end of ToM where Rand will die, as is his destiny and return.

 

You really think that is where Rand will die? That is a unique take, care to round out the theory?

[bsmnt23]

Third Futile Battle is Caemlyn, which we've seen starting at the end of ToM where Rand will die, as is his destiny and return.

 

You really think that is where Rand will die? That is a unique take, care to round out the theory?

 

Much like Rand has elements of Lucifer and Jesus there is also quite a bit of Arthur in there as well. I believe Rand is going to die at the Battle of Caemlyn, it is thematically correct with Arthurian Legend. History or legend describes Arthur’s "Three Futile Battles" in which Camlann was his last. The three WoT analogues to Arthur’s Futile Battles are the Battle of Maradon, Lan’s Charge and the Battle of Caemlyn. Despite it being a victory for the Light, Maradon was ultimately futile because it was ultimately pointless. The other futile battle, obviously, is Lan's last charge of the Malkieri into almost certain death. I expect a miracle there, but I'm an optimist. That leaves Caemlyn. Camlann was Arthur’s last battle and I believe the Battle of Caemlyn is where Rand will meet his "to live you must die" fate. Arthur was mortally wounded in his last battle with Mordred, then taken away by the “three sisters” to Avalon, the Land of Mists there to await the time when Briton would need him most again. We know that Rand’s soul is bonded to the Horn of Valor and that upon his death in this incarnation he will return to TAR, the World of Dreams.

 

Egwene dreams of a body on a bier that looks like Rand which breaks apart when she touches it. This has yet to happen and is going to have to happen soon. I take this as an indicator that the husk is just Rand’s mortal shell; that his soul has returned to TAR. I believe Rand will be brought back from TAR fully "returned to spec", so to speak, for the fight against the Dark One as Birgette was ripped out by Moghedian. That unique event was probably the greatest single example of foreshadowing in the series. The Dragon still needs to meet his date at Shayol Ghul, so it follows that when Rand dies at Caemlyn that he is returned from TAR a la Birgette's route. This allows him to be completely rejuvenated for the battle with the Dark One. Rand can only be whole again when he faces the Dark One; let’s face it right now he is a wreak, and it has to happen before he goes to Shayol Ghul.

 

The connections between Mordred and Arthur are not always father and son, or even those of blood relation, but there is always a connection, and it always ends in a fight to the death. Moridin thinks he has been destined to face the Dragon throughout time and he would go to Caemlyn or anywhere else to see that ended. I think we have enough similarities between Arthur being born away to Avalon by the Three Sisters after their fight and Min's viewing of three women in a boat with Rand for an almost certain correlation. Rand may be forced into this fight (Arthur went unwillingly to the battle at Camlann) to save Elayne or for some other reason.

 

The event of the Battle of Caemlyn is going to be huge. It is the great symbol of Human achievement in this Age and as such is a huge target for the forces of the Dark. Arguments could be made in favor of Tar Valon or even Tear, but Tar Valon is not so much a symbol of HUMAN achievement but that of Aes Sedai power, and the Stone of Tear is just as obsolete as a military bastion. Caemlyn is built up throughout the series as the most egalitarian, the most civilized as well as the richest and most powerful nation in Randland. The Dark One is rising and the Last Battle is in the wind. The great symbols of the Age HAVE to be torn down for the next to be built anew for the next Age. It's almost a Law of Fiction; this is a thing that’s going to happen. The Band of the Red Hand is going to give hell to the Trollocs especially when they get their hands on the dragons. Seeing them in battle is going to be the hope for the future that everyone needs to resist the Dark One. [spoilerS]. It very strongly implies that the very act of creating the dragons in the first place that drove back the omnipresent cloud cover over Caemlyn. I had thought it was Rand and Elayne's children pushing back the Dark One's influence for a while. Kinda neat. But I digress.

[RandA lThor]

You present a good case, but I do not envision that to be big enough to where rand will even come to Caemlyn. first of all, TV will be more important to him as a source for the majority of female channelers. if that gets destroyed, there will be significantly less hope of winning the last battle. Also, Caemlyn, I feel, can be defended by the Band, Mat, Elayne and her Cairheinin and Andoran armies. i feel that will be enough, more if the BT gets destroyed and involved in the battle.

 

I also do not see Rand in the battle of Caemlyn. he promised himself that he would not fight battles such as that again and I think that he will not busy himself with huge hordes of Shadowspawn ever again directly. he will save his power for the Forsaken and the DO. Wasting his energy in Caemlyn, does not seem like a viable option for him seeing that he has much bigger things to do. Also, I do not think that anyone will allow him to go to Caemlyn with all of this more important things going on. The Dragon reborn can't just leave everyone else and go to fight Trollocs. He has to be ready for a greater threat

 

Moiraine also will not let him go, She understands what it means for your country to be in danger because she was their for Cairhein, and she will make him go to TG, or at least the WT. She has worked so hard for this she will not have him waster her efforts. Also, he is very weak to deny her. he still thinks he was reponsible for her death and he will be so overjoyed with her coming back, it will be hard to resist her.

[Sephie913]

I disagree. I think that the BT situation wil be coming to a head at the same time that Caemlyn is overwhelmed. the BT is just outside of Caemlyn, after all. This will definitely be enough of a motivator to get Rand to Caemlyn. Not for trollocs, but for BT.

 

Besides, on one hand you say that Mat and the Band will handle Caemlyn, and on the other you say that Moiraine will make it to FoM. I'm not sure it's likely Moiraine will leave Thom, and it's definitely unlikely that Thom will leave Mat. And I don't think Mat will be done with Caemlyn by FoM.

 

In any case, I think it's neat enough to work, from a writing perspective. This is last 3rd of the book :) which is when things start moving faster than expected.

 

*edited for clarity*

[bsmnt23]

You present a good case, but I do not envision that to be big enough to where rand will even come to Caemlyn. first of all, TV will be more important to him as a source for the majority of female channelers. if that gets destroyed, there will be significantly less hope of winning the last battle. Also, Caemlyn, I feel, can be defended by the Band, Mat, Elayne and her Cairheinin and Andoran armies. i feel that will be enough, more if the BT gets destroyed and involved in the battle.

 

I also do not see Rand in the battle of Caemlyn. he promised himself that he would not fight battles such as that again and I think that he will not busy himself with huge hordes of Shadowspawn ever again directly. he will save his power for the Forsaken and the DO. Wasting his energy in Caemlyn, does not seem like a viable option for him seeing that he has much bigger things to do. Also, I do not think that anyone will allow him to go to Caemlyn with all of this more important things going on. The Dragon reborn can't just leave everyone else and go to fight Trollocs. He has to be ready for a greater threat

 

Moiraine also will not let him go, She understands what it means for your country to be in danger because she was their for Cairhein, and she will make him go to TG, or at least the WT. She has worked so hard for this she will not have him waster her efforts. Also, he is very weak to deny her. he still thinks he was reponsible for her death and he will be so overjoyed with her coming back, it will be hard to resist her.

 

We've danced this dance before, RandA lThor. Rand is going to allow those who follow him to fight the battles they need to fight. There's enough established foreshadowing for an attack on Tar Valon, but that will be fought by Garath Bryne; his plans for "What he would do to take the city" will be useful after all. The Last Battle will not be one massive confrontation at the FoM between the assembled forces of light and dark. The FoM are simply an assembly point from which all the battles will be planed then executed each in their place and time to include the Battle of Caemlyn. Elayne will go back to Caemlyn to defend her city , which the Band is trying to hold. Elayne is going to do something in her own personal idiom and get heroically captured, probably by David Hanlon, we haven’t seen the end of him yet. Rand is going to have them fight the temporal battles, and he will hold himself away from those battles, waiting for his time, but will go to help his babymomma when she gets in trouble; weather Moridin is there or not already, Moridan and Rand will battle at Caemlyn. The BT is going to be a separate battle and have nothing to do with Caemlyn.

 

I’ve already established in another forum that going to the rescue of Elayne is perfectly within character for Rand, even if he thinks he still needs to face larger battles; he will go if and because he feels it is right. Weather Moiraine is even there to ask him to not go is up to timeline issues that can only be resolved when the book comes out, but even if she is there is no force on the earth that can stop Rand from doing what he has already decided to do. There is no “let” involved, he will ignore or bulldoze any opposition, even Moiraine if she is even there to pose an opposition. And he will go, reluctantly, to Caemlyn, just like Arthur, and there he will die. And then he will return from World of Dreams to face the Dark One and thus live. I don’t think he and Moiraine will even reunite until after his resurrection. But, like I said, that’s a thing for when the book comes out.

[RandA lThor]

You present a good case, but I do not envision that to be big enough to where rand will even come to Caemlyn. first of all, TV will be more important to him as a source for the majority of female channelers. if that gets destroyed, there will be significantly less hope of winning the last battle. Also, Caemlyn, I feel, can be defended by the Band, Mat, Elayne and her Cairheinin and Andoran armies. i feel that will be enough, more if the BT gets destroyed and involved in the battle.

 

I also do not see Rand in the battle of Caemlyn. he promised himself that he would not fight battles such as that again and I think that he will not busy himself with huge hordes of Shadowspawn ever again directly. he will save his power for the Forsaken and the DO. Wasting his energy in Caemlyn, does not seem like a viable option for him seeing that he has much bigger things to do. Also, I do not think that anyone will allow him to go to Caemlyn with all of this more important things going on. The Dragon reborn can't just leave everyone else and go to fight Trollocs. He has to be ready for a greater threat

 

Moiraine also will not let him go, She understands what it means for your country to be in danger because she was their for Cairhein, and she will make him go to TG, or at least the WT. She has worked so hard for this she will not have him waster her efforts. Also, he is very weak to deny her. he still thinks he was reponsible for her death and he will be so overjoyed with her coming back, it will be hard to resist her.

 

We've danced this dance before, RandA lThor. Rand is going to allow those who follow him to fight the battles they need to fight. There's enough established foreshadowing for an attack on Tar Valon, but that will be fought by Garath Bryne; his plans for "What he would do to take the city" will be useful after all. The Last Battle will not be one massive confrontation at the FoM between the assembled forces of light and dark. The FoM are simply an assembly point from which all the battles will be planed then executed each in their place and time to include the Battle of Caemlyn. Elayne will go back to Caemlyn to defend her city , which the Band is trying to hold. Elayne is going to do something in her own personal idiom and get heroically captured, probably by David Hanlon, we haven’t seen the end of him yet. Rand is going to have them fight the temporal battles, and he will hold himself away from those battles, waiting for his time, but will go to help his babymomma when she gets in trouble; weather Moridin is there or not already, Moridan and Rand will battle at Caemlyn. The BT is going to be a separate battle and have nothing to do with Caemlyn.

 

I’ve already established in another forum that going to the rescue of Elayne is perfectly within character for Rand, even if he thinks he still needs to face larger battles; he will go if and because he feels it is right. Weather Moiraine is even there to ask him to not go is up to timeline issues that can only be resolved when the book comes out, but even if she is there is no force on the earth that can stop Rand from doing what he has already decided to do. There is no “let” involved, he will ignore or bulldoze any opposition, even Moiraine if she is even there to pose an opposition. And he will go, reluctantly, to Caemlyn, just like Arthur, and there he will die. And then he will return from World of Dreams to face the Dark One and thus live. I don’t think he and Moiraine will even reunite until after his resurrection. But, like I said, that’s a thing for when the book comes out.

 

Oh, yeah!! Just like old times. Gareth Bryne alone can't fight the seanchean, maybe not all the Aes Sedai alone with a surprise attack from inside. Also, Rand has people he also loves in a different sort of way at FoM, and I think Min will have him stay at FoM. Aviendha will probably also be at FoM.

 

Moiraine, Aviendha, Min, and the rest of the FoM could convince Rand not to go. After all, Rand will have babies with Aviendha and probably with Min.

[bsmnt23]

Oh, yeah!! Just like old times. Gareth Bryne alone can't fight the seanchean, maybe not all the Aes Sedai alone with a surprise attack from inside. Also, Rand has people he also loves in a different sort of way at FoM, and I think Min will have him stay at FoM. Aviendha will probably also be at FoM.

 

Moiraine, Aviendha, Min, and the rest of the FoM could convince Rand not to go. After all, Rand will have babies with Aviendha and probably with Min.

 

While everything is ramping up at the FoM, Rand is going to ram a peace deal down the Seanchan’s collective imperial throat with the sword of Artur Hawkwing to seal the deal. Gareth Bryne won’t have to repulse an attack on Tar Valon from Seanchan; that card has been played and its bad storytelling to repeat the same event. Fortuona will have to actually come to the aid of the city because of the truce and Egwene’s dream about her and the unnamed Seanchan woman assisting each other to reach the top of the tower will be fulfilled.

 

Min isn’t so clingy now, she is more likely to have him go save Elayne than keep him “safe”. Avienda is like Moiraine; who knows when she’ll turn up but I’m thinking the baby making will take place after Rand is returned from TAR as that might explain the oddity their children will possess. It’s never happened that a Hero has been walking the earth as the real deal straight out of TAR. Anything could come of it. We’ll see on that, too. But can you imagine Avienda holding Rand back from battle? Not exactly a clinger, either.

[RandA lThor]

But there will also be a battle at FoM and at WT which will be more important that Aviendha will convince him to go to.

[bsmnt23]

But there will also be a battle at FoM and at WT which will be more important that Aviendha will convince him to go to.

 

Again, subjective; "more important". More important to whom? Not more important to Rand than the safety of Elayne. Like I said, regardless of whether it makes strategic sense or if it would make sense to wait and rest a few hours or to think about tactics, if Rand decides he is going to do something he is going to do it. This is how he is developed as a character. Besides, I have seen nothing to indicate an actual battle at the FoM. It’s merely a place to gather that has enough area for everyone to stage their armies to then move on the where the real battles are. It makes NO sense to have a battle at the FoM; they are facing literal hoards of Trollocs who all of them out weigh a human by double and are very hard to kill. That’s just the Trollocs. You never plan a battle where you are already outnumbered and facing superior soldiers on a flat terrain; you don’t need the collective knowledge of 30 generations of military genius inserted into your noggin to know that. The battle will take place somewhere else, maybe Tar Valon, maybe it will be the miracle that saves Lan at Tarwin’s Gap, maybe all of the above, but it will be where the terrain favors the defenders.

[RandA lThor]

yeah, but the people might need help against the Forsaken and Rand needs to be there. Also, Elayne probably won't even be in that much danger and I am pretty sure that she will be traveled away if any danger presents itself.

[yoniy0]

Okay, so this topic was created by me, due to Muddasssir's comment that the topic about Lan's Charge was hijacked (which it kinda was). To reiterate what I wrote there, discussion of spoiler material is not to be done in this board.

[yoniy0]

And here are some points I wanted to make:

• Lurk31, you forgot to include Egwne's test for Accepted, which provided some foreshadowing for the possibility or Rand's dying in Caemlyn.
  
• Having said that, the part about "three in a boat" was actually a Dream the WO had, and then also appeared in Nicola's foretelling. It wasn't Min, though. She just saw three women around Rand's pier.
  
• The part about the breaking of the could cover was pretty well established as Rand's effect acting through his three girlfriends. Certainly, Avienhda and Min exhibit this ability as well. Hence it stands to reason that Elayne's presence in Caemlyn was all that was needed. Also, note how food that comes from Caemlyn is now resistant to the DO's corruption. Min did a similar thing with Cadsuane's tea, as well.
  
• Finally, there are some issues with Rand's dying in Caemlyn, mainly the prophecies which link his death to SG. We have "Light is held before the maw", "The Dragon's blood on the Rocks"/"In the Pit of Doom", and the Dark prophecy from ToM (though that could be made to support two distinct bloodings, so I guess he might be hurt both times. I just don't like the prospect of "all that he is [being] seized" after he's come back to life).
  

[bsmnt23]

And here are some points I wanted to make:

• Lurk31, you forgot to include Egwne's test for Accepted, which provided some foreshadowing for the possibility or Rand's dying in Caemlyn.
  
• Having said that, the part about "three in a boat" was actually a Dream the WO had, and then also appeared in Nicola's foretelling. It wasn't Min, though. She just saw three women around Rand's pier.
  
• The part about the breaking of the could cover was pretty well established as Rand's effect acting through his three girlfriends. Certainly, Avienhda and Min exhibit this ability as well. Hence it stands to reason that Elayne's presence in Caemlyn was all that was needed. Also, note how food that comes from Caemlyn is now resistant to the DO's corruption. Min did a similar thing with Cadsuane's tea, as well.
  
• Finally, there are some issues with Rand's dying in Caemlyn, mainly the prophecies which link his death to SG. We have "Light is held before the maw", "The Dragon's blood on the Rocks"/"In the Pit of Doom", and the Dark prophecy from ToM (though that could be made to support two distinct bloodings, so I guess he might be hurt both times. I just don't like the prospect of "all that he is [being] seized" after he's come back to life).
  

 

 

Yeah, sorry about that to Muddasssir; I wanted to talk about Lan's charge, but it got me going off on supporting tangents and between that and the others comments, I guess it sort of got away from me. But imagine my surprise when I found out I had started a whole new topic on it though Also, I guess I didn’t even think about talking about the previewed parts of the prologue as spoilers, my bad.

 

I did forget about Egwen's Accepted test; it's been so long now that I completely forgot about it. Good call yoniy0.

 

The various prophecies in this series are hard to track with who is seeing what; I found a resource on WoT Wiki to help keep track, but that was late last night.

 

I recognize the issues with Rand dying at Caemlyn, and my theory only works if there is a resurrection (the "heal death" theory or the "ripped out of TAR" theory that I endorse); if not than this all gets tossed out the window. As it is, though; if Rand does die at Caemlyn his death, to coin a phrase, will make him more powerful than you could possibly believe. Powerful enough to challenge the Dark One on his home turf perhaps.

 

With the “blood on the rocks” prophecy, with how it is worded, it could be fulfilled by something as simple as an altitude-induced bloody nose. It literally calls for blood, not life. It does seem fairly anti-climatic, but I suppose if you already had one dramatic death scene do you really need another?

 

I’m totally willing to be wrong on all of this, it’s always better to be surprised by an awesome story climax that you never saw coming. But all the factors add up for on this.

[yoniy0]

I do agree that his blood on the rocks need not mean his death. But I can't stomach all that Rand is being seized after he was already resurrected, unless you suggest he might be restored yet again (from whatever state he's left in)? I mean, the KC does say twice and twice, but that's really pushing it too far.

[Terez]

Third Futile Battle is Caemlyn, which we've seen starting at the end of ToM where Rand will die, as is his destiny and return.

 

You really think that is where Rand will die? That is a unique take, care to round out the theory?

 

It's hardly unique; people have been arguing this for years. But it's impossible to discuss this topic properly without the few spoilers we have available. (yoniy0 might be willing to move it if the OP so desires)

 

I will say this: Caemlyn is a Camlann parallel, but so is Tar Valon. The meaning of the word 'camlann' (first seen in Geoffrey of Monmouth) is 'crooked river bank', and Caemlyn doesn't even have a river. By RJ's reverse-engineering concept, Rand doesn't have to die in Caemlyn, but it would be nice if he died concurrent with the Battle of Caemlyn. The main question is, which of my two sig quotes is Mordred foreshadowing?

[yoniy0]

(yoniy0 might be willing to move it if the OP so desires)

Sure, it's up to Lurk31.

[bsmnt23]

Haha, yeah, actualy I'm having a hard time in the non-spoiler restriction section. yoniy0, could you move this thread to the spoilers-ok place?

[Sephie913]

And here are some points I wanted to make:

• Lurk31, you forgot to include Egwne's test for Accepted, which provided some foreshadowing for the possibility or Rand's dying in Caemlyn.
  
• Having said that, the part about "three in a boat" was actually a Dream the WO had, and then also appeared in Nicola's foretelling. It wasn't Min, though. She just saw three women around Rand's pier.
  
• The part about the breaking of the could cover was pretty well established as Rand's effect acting through his three girlfriends. Certainly, Avienhda and Min exhibit this ability as well. Hence it stands to reason that Elayne's presence in Caemlyn was all that was needed. Also, note how food that comes from Caemlyn is now resistant to the DO's corruption. Min did a similar thing with Cadsuane's tea, as well.
  
• Finally, there are some issues with Rand's dying in Caemlyn, mainly the prophecies which link his death to SG. We have "Light is held before the maw", "The Dragon's blood on the Rocks"/"In the Pit of Doom", and the Dark prophecy from ToM (though that could be made to support two distinct bloodings, so I guess he might be hurt both times. I just don't like the prospect of "all that he is [being] seized" after he's come back to life).
  

 

 

Yeah, sorry about that to Muddasssir; I wanted to talk about Lan's charge, but it got me going off on supporting tangents and between that and the others comments, I guess it sort of got away from me. But imagine my surprise when I found out I had started a whole new topic on it though Also, I guess I didn’t even think about talking about the previewed parts of the prologue as spoilers, my bad.

 

I did forget about Egwen's Accepted test; it's been so long now that I completely forgot about it. Good call yoniy0.

 

The various prophecies in this series are hard to track with who is seeing what; I found a resource on WoT Wiki to help keep track, but that was late last night.

 

I recognize the issues with Rand dying at Caemlyn, and my theory only works if there is a resurrection (the "heal death" theory or the "ripped out of TAR" theory that I endorse); if not than this all gets tossed out the window. As it is, though; if Rand does die at Caemlyn his death, to coin a phrase, will make him more powerful than you could possibly believe. Powerful enough to challenge the Dark One on his home turf perhaps.

 

With the “blood on the rocks” prophecy, with how it is worded, it could be fulfilled by something as simple as an altitude-induced bloody nose. It literally calls for blood, not life. It does seem fairly anti-climatic, but I suppose if you already had one dramatic death scene do you really need another?

 

I’m totally willing to be wrong on all of this, it’s always better to be surprised by an awesome story climax that you never saw coming. But all the factors add up for on this.

 

 

That would be super awesome, LOL funny. Very anime. we expect it to be this big dramatic thing, but the dramatic thing happens before that, and the actual event is tiny little thing, sticking a tongue out to the fans (in a jk way).

[yoniy0]

Okay, since we're on this board now, I'll say what I imagine Terez wanted to. When Rand goes to SG, we know he'll still have his wounds, and not yet get his hand back. This seems to imply that, should TAR truly be the method by which he's brought back, that he wouldn't have died before going there.

[Terez]

Unless he goes twice. And the funeral pyre appears to be in front of Dragonmount, whatever that's worth.

[bsmnt23]

You know what really frustrated me? In the new cover art by Whelan you cant see Rand's left arm to see if his hand is there or not. The image is a decent resolution, though, so you can blow it up enough to see what looks like blood staining his shirt, so it does indeed suport that he is still wounded when he goes to SG. I dont know if that blows my whole theory out completly or not, but I dont want to judge a book by its cover.

[yoniy0]

you cant see Rand's left arm to see if his hand is there or not.

No, you can't, but as I said:

we know he'll [...] not yet get his hand back.

See here.

[TheAngryDruid]

Saw an interesting take on the LB, and Callandor, with a poster pointing out that the prophecy tells of Rand holding Callandor in his "hands." Emphasis on the plural. And that this means he'll have to die and be reborn before we see the scene on the cover.

 

In fact, Rand does have a bit to do before going to SG. He has to talk to Egwene and the other leaders at Merrilor. He has to meet Moiraine. He has to bind the Nine Moons to him and deal with the Seanchan. He has to talk to Aviendha and figure our the Aiel. And deal with this whole Meirin thing. He also promised Nyneave he'd help Lan. And deal with the Black Tower.

 

A lot on his plate with one book left.

[yoniy0]

Again, Rand does not have his left hand in the scene depicted by Mr. Whelan.