Updated Moridin/Taim Thread

[fyodor]

Hi All

 

I've tried to consolidate the Moridin/Taim (via disguise) I've seen posted elsewhere and post a few additional pieces that have been missed or are based upon recent BS quotes.

 

I've borrowed liberally from other posts. I've tried to limit this to information that points specifically to Taim being Moridin not Taim being a bad guy generally (which not really disputed at this point).

 

I'm not sure where I come out on this. There seem to be a lot of very specific clues that point in that direction but also a lot of problems.

 

 

 

1. The True Power

 

After Rand uses the True Power, he is identified as having as having an aura of darkness/shadow. Taim has a similar effect, which was confirmed by BS as being relevant. Thus far the only characters we've seen using the True Power are Moridin/Ishamel and Graendal, who is severely limited in her use

 

Quotes extracted from this Theoryland Post

 

http://www.theorylan...c=121&theo=2761

 

Ch 23, A Warp in the Air, Cadsuane POV

 

"As she watched, the air around him seemed to warp, and she could almost think that the room had grown darker....Dazed, she turned—and from the corner off her eye, she saw a deep darkness emanating from al'Thor, warping the air even further"

Ch 31, A Promise to Lews Therin

 

 

"As before, when she turned away from him, she thought she saw...from the corner of her eye...darkness around him, like too much shade from the clouds above."

 

 

WH, Prologue, Snow "Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-and-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as a tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him as if half the lamps in the room had gone out, not real shadows but an air of imminent violence that seems palapable enough to soak up light"

When asked about it BS confirmed indirectly that this is relevant.

 

 

HBFFerreira on Twitter - 20 July 2010 2:35 pm

The Gathering Storm: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling the True Power, right? Winter's Heart prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

Brandon - 21 July 12:18 am

You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

 

Now, it's worth noting that I don't know if we necessarily see Moridin with this aura at any point. Ishamael had it all the time but we mostly saw him in the Dream World and generally the writing was more magicky/fanciful during the first three books.

 

 

2. Design/Decor (Black Shayol Ghul Rock) (New)

Brandon Sanderson recently confirmed here that the Black Tower is made from volcanic Shayol Ghul rock. See here.

"

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2012

 

Gold Coast SupaNova - Eleanor Chandler-Temple (Paraphrased)

TEREZ

 

Is Taim's palace made of [Shayol Ghul rock]?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Now we know that Moridin's tower is also made of Shayol Ghul Rock and that this is considered noteworthy. TGS

 

"He noted their obedience with stern eyes as he stalked to the front of the room where the wall of charcoal black stones was set with a mantel. What had possessed someone to build a fortress out of black rock in the Blight's heat?"

 

3. Design/Decor (black and red)

 

Both Taim and Moridin have a penchant for black and red. This section, including all commentary is quoted wholesale from the following blog post by Herid

http://www.dragonmou...in-in-disguise/

 

(Blog Quote Starts Here)

 

"Taim likes red and black just as Moridin does. I mentioned this already but it's worth noting again.

Quote

 

The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for tapestries showing battles and red-and-black floor tiles, except that there were no servants in evidence.

...

 

The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors.

 

-KoD, Ch 38:The fact that the color is accentuated is particularly striking. As for Moridin, red and black are practically his business card. He dresses Moggy and Cyndane as well as his servants in red and black. His digs in the Blight are decorated in red and black. To drive home the point Moridin even comments on this openly to Moggy

 

Quote

 

The stout innkeeper at The Oarsman’s Pride nearly leaped, too, at the sight of Moghedien striding into her common room in gloriously scarlet silk worked with thread-of-gold and black silk that glistened as richly as the gold. Her mask was a great spray of pitch black feathers with a sharp black beak; a raven. That was Moridin’s joke, his command, as was the dress, in fact. His colors were black and red, he said, and she would wear them while she served him.

-CoS, Ch 30Red and Black are Moridin's colors and he marks his territory with them like an alpha dog that he is.

 

This firmly identifies Taim as either Moridin or Moridin's lieutenant, a very very trusty lieutenant.

 

(End Blog Quote).

 

4. Gestures/Mannerisms (Generally)

 

It is noted that at some point Moridin picks up Rand's physical mannerisms as a result of their balefire link. Particularly here Graendal notes:

 

TGS, Prologue " Strangely, he [Moridin] looked a great deal like Al Thor - of whom she had numerous sketches via her spies - when he stood like that"

 

In book nine, Taim, who is openly disdainful of weapons training, is described by Elayne as having the physical grace of a Warder (after the link is created).

 

"WH, Prologue, Snow "Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-and-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as a tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him as if half the lamps in the room had gone out, not real shadows but an air of imminent violence that seems palapable enough to soak up light".

 

4. Gestures/Mannerism (Disarmerment)

 

 

During the gathering of the Forsaken in the TGS prologue (too long to quote), Moridin is repeatedly identified as having to (a) Clench his first and (b) rest his left arm on the mantel, presumably because of his link to Rand.

 

The first time that we see Taim after the battle with Semihrage, in addition to his above-referenced shadowy effect, he also has to rest his arm.

 

KOD Prologue "He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence"

 

Rand (whose physical gestures Moridin has absorbed) now walks with his damaged arm behind his back.

 

ToM, Prologue "The Dragon Reborn raised his right hand — his left arm was folded behind his back — and halted the procession."

 

So does Taim.

 

ToM, 53

"And you see," Taim said, walking with one hand folded—fingers making a fist—behind his back."

 

Rand, obviously does not have a fist to clench, but as described in the TGS prologue, Moridin clenches his fist.

 

5. Dreamspike

 

In ToM , 5 , Moridin gives Graendal the dreamspike, noting that the other was being "put to good use"

 

We know that one particular use of the Dreamspike is to prevent invasion/entry of dreams via TAR. In TGS, Rand enters Moridin's dreams (presumably because of the link) but is never able to do so again. We know from ToM that the second Dreamspike is in the Black Tower. We also don't have any more dream meetings. Could it be because Moridin is using the Dreamspike to protect his dreams

 

6. Burning Eyes

 

 

Taim is described twice as having burning/fiery eyes, first by Logain in Knife of Dreams and later by Pevara in Towers of Midnight. Ishamel/Baalzimon of course had burning eyes

 

"He tried every trick to learn where you are. Oh, he burns to know that. His eyes were practically on fire.”

 

"This again?" Taim said. He had fire in his eyes, this Mazrim Taim.”

 

Now, I have to assume that Taim's eyes were not actually burning like Ishamael's but it's interesting phrasing.

 

 

 

6. So Called Aiel

 

Since 1995 people have been wondering why the hell Taim referred to the Aiel as "so-called Aiel" It sounds a lot like a general forsaken-type usage, which it certainly is.. But for what it's worth, the only other time we see this phrase is from the Wanderer (later determined to be Moridin) in chapter 20 of ACoS.

 

 

7. General Power Balance

 

One of the things that has always bugged me about Taim's role in the Shadow is the ridiculous level of authority and power he has. The Forsaken are generally paranoid about their subordinates and carefully curtail their power. Taim has his own invincible army of hundreds of channelers. The only real way I can see this working is him being the most powerful Forsaken. OTOH, it could just be weak/inconsistent characterization. It certainly wouldn't be the first thing that didn't make sense after the fact.

 

8. Moridin's Ashaman Lackey

 

InTGS prologue Moridin sends someone who appears to be an Ashaman to retrieve Graendal. The guy is wearing all black and opens a gateway to Moridin's palace. I originally thought that Moridin opened the gateway but he doesn't show up until later. Now we know that the Darkfriend Ashaman have performed tasks for the Forsaken previously, but I don't see anyone else with Ashaman on hand to use as messengers. OTOH,

 

9. Cons

 

Ho Boy, are there cons. First we have the differences in the orders to the Ashaman from Taim and Moridin.

 

We have the fact that there's good reason to think that Moridin wasn't channeling the OP after book seven (covered more elsewhere), whereas Taim is conducting private lessons.

 

There's the fact that Taim's personality seems much more fiery whereas Moridin is heavily detached.

 

There's also the fact that the Glossary (CoS, I think) describes the False Dragon Taim as being the same guy that's running the Ashaman (the glossary has never flat out lied) and Ishamael was still Ishamael when Taim was a false dragon.

 

In LoC Taim recounts Rand's sky-battle with Ishamael and killing him later and gets no response. Whereas Taim loses his shit over getting some badges later on.

 

Being the M'hael seems like a fulltime gig as does being Naeblis. OTOH, by book nine Taim has his own private palace, so he can presumably slip off incognito.

 

Finally, it seems a little much for Moridin to have two secret identities (Taim and Ishamael).

 

So, I'm kind of perplexed. There seem to be too many specific hints for this to be made up. OTOH, there seem to be some fatal flaws with this theory too.

[RandA lThor]

I don't think that Taim and Moridin are the same because of timeline issues, one was introduced way before the other, and the fact that the character didn't seem to change enough to indicated deception. Also, Moridin does not have enough time on his hands to be at the BT 24/7.

[Suttree]

9. Cons

 

Ho Boy, are there cons. First we have the differences in the orders to the Ashaman from Taim and Moridin.

 

We have the fact that there's good reason to think that Moridin wasn't channeling the OP after book seven (covered more elsewhere), whereas Taim is conducting private lessons.

 

There's the fact that Taim's personality seems much more fiery whereas Moridin is heavily detached.

 

There's also the fact that the Glossary (CoS, I think) describes the False Dragon Taim as being the same guy that's running the Ashaman (the glossary has never flat out lied) and Ishamael was still Ishamael when Taim was a false dragon.

 

In LoC Taim recounts Rand's sky-battle with Ishamael and killing him later and gets no response. Whereas Taim loses his shit over getting some badges later on.

 

Being the M'hael seems like a fulltime gig as does being Naeblis. OTOH, by book nine Taim has his own private palace, so he can presumably slip off incognito.

 

Finally, it seems a little much for Moridin to have two secret identities (Taim and Ishamael).

 

So, I'm kind of perplexed. There seem to be too many specific hints for this to be made up. OTOH, there seem to be some fatal flaws with this theory too.

 

Moridin would never have allowed himself to be harried across half the continent. "Rode hard and put away wet" in order to reach Caemlyn according to RJ, as it was the only place he had a shot to survive.

[fyodor]

 

Moridin would never have allowed himself to be harried across half the continent. "Rode hard and put away wet" in order to reach Caemlyn according to RJ, as it was the only place he had a shot to survive.

 

 

Yeah, I agree that RJ's statements on the subject are problematical. But, whoever Taim is he's a pretty high ranking Darkfriend who was at the very least trained by one of the Forsaken (the use of Forsaken lightning logos, Moridin's coloring, Forsaken catchphrases, etc.),. Even if he's not Moridin I have trouble seeing how he was harried around the continent.

[fyodor]

I don't think that Taim and Moridin are the same because of timeline issues, one was introduced way before the other, and the fact that the character didn't seem to change enough to indicated deception. Also, Moridin does not have enough time on his hands to be at the BT 24/7.

 

Well, keep in mind that Moridin isn't necessarily running things until book nine. Most of the Forsaken don't meet him until PoD or later. Taim also spends some of his time gone on recruiting trips and/or (later on) hidden away in his palace. I agree that it's problematic, but I don't think it's a dealbreaker.

 

Regarding introduction, we don't see Moridin on camera until book seven, but we don't know when he was resurrected.

[Suttree]

Moridin would never have allowed himself to be harried across half the continent. "Rode hard and put away wet" in order to reach Caemlyn according to RJ, as it was the only place he had a shot to survive.

 

 

Yeah, I agree that RJ's statements on the subject are problematical. But, whoever Taim is he's a pretty high ranking Darkfriend who was at the very least trained by one of the Forsaken (the use of Forsaken lightning logos, Moridin's coloring, Forsaken catchphrases, etc.),. Even if he's not Moridin I have trouble seeing how he was harried around the continent.

 

Understandable but regardless we have this...

 

 

 

Robert Jordan

 

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted—along with other reasons—and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

 

 

&

 

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Zaela Sedai

Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

 

Robert Jordan

Ta-eem (he said it phonetically). [Don't know how to write down how to say it, but it's not how most people say it.] Sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place were there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai won't be able to come after him.

 

I have no doubt that he is a high ranking DF however...

[fyodor]

I don't really have a good answer-as I said there seems to be both very specific hints and fatal flaws with this theory.

 

I will note that the second quote is paraphrased so it's possible that it was presented in terms of Taim's purported or apparent motivation. As for the first one, it's possible that Taim/Moridin allowed himself to be chased into Andor to seem more credible instead of popping in out of the blue. I concede that it's a weak response.

 

I just have trouble resolving what RJ's statements with what we know about Taim. Whoever he is, he's not actually someone who is in danger from Lord Bashere and/or actually in need of protection from Rand.

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

 

SODAS

Is there anything you can tell us about Taim's choice to head to Andor after his escape?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Well, he really didn't have much other choice. He's a man who can channel. At that time as far as he knows any Aes Sedai that gets their hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around, there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist.

 

Doesn't sound like a very Moridin thing to do. And this is Verbatim, if it makes much difference.

 

Not much doubt that he is a particularly unique force for the Shadow.

[RandA lThor]

Also, correct me if wrong, but i think that Taim is always or almost always at the BT. Moridin cannot spend all his time there. I think that Taim sends other people to do recruiting now and that still wouldn't be enough time for him to be both. I think that a lot of people would be mad if this was true.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, as far as we know Taim is always at the Black Tower. But since his palace is reserved for his cronies, we do not know, he could be away for long periods.

 

We do know that Taim is at the Black Tower often enough to make himself known to the Asha'man.

 

With Travelling, it is hard to say. He need only pop in and walk around the BT for five minutes each day then Travel back to the Blight (talking Mazridin here)

 

I do agree that it is too much for Moridin to do. Not to mention it will make the Black Tower showdown anti-climatic. Logain won't kill Moridin, and Moridin won't die until he faces off with Rand. I don't think there will be a battle between them at the Black Tower, Moridin would just retreat to the Blight. Why would he risk himself at the Black Tower, where they would be on relatively equal footing? He will want to face Rand in the Blight, near Shayol Ghul where the DO's power is strongest.

[fyodor]

Also, correct me if wrong, but i think that Taim is always or almost always at the BT. Moridin cannot spend all his time there. I think that Taim sends other people to do recruiting now and that still wouldn't be enough time for him to be both. I think that a lot of people would be mad if this was true.

 

Is he? We don't get a lot of detail about life there once things are up and running. I was under the impression that most of the Ashaman , other than the Darkfriends in his palace, do not see him regularly. I don't think anything would preclude him from heading off regularly to handle his moridin duties.

 

Robert Jordan's comments are harder to resolve. But they are also hard to resolve with any reasonable alternative theory.

 

 

 

 

[Conan]

Every time moriden is onscreen the saa In his eyes is mentioned that's not the case with tiam he could be using something to hide the saa but I don't think so

[fyodor]

Every time moriden is onscreen the saa In his eyes is mentioned that's not the case with tiam he could be using something to hide the saa but I don't think so

 

Well he'd presumably be using illusion to alter his appearance in this scenario so that he looks like taim and not moridin.

[fyodor]

One of my frustrations is that we don't get to see much of day to day life in the Black Tower, like we do in the White Tower.

 

But I get the impression that there's very little regular interaction between Taim and the non-Darkfriend followers. The Dedicated that meets Pevara is not allowed into the palace-he drops Pevara off at the front and a DF Ashaman takes her to Taim. Logain has to ask about his recruiting trips through intermediaries.

 

 

Well, as far as we know Taim is always at the Black Tower. But since his palace is reserved for his cronies, we do not know, he could be away for long periods.

 

We do know that Taim is at the Black Tower often enough to make himself known to the Asha'man.

 

With Travelling, it is hard to say. He need only pop in and walk around the BT for five minutes each day then Travel back to the Blight (talking Mazridin here)

 

I do agree that it is too much for Moridin to do. Not to mention it will make the Black Tower showdown anti-climatic. Logain won't kill Moridin, and Moridin won't die until he faces off with Rand. I don't think there will be a battle between them at the Black Tower, Moridin would just retreat to the Blight. Why would he risk himself at the Black Tower, where they would be on relatively equal footing? He will want to face Rand in the Blight, near Shayol Ghul where the DO's power is strongest.

[Mr Ares]

1. The True Power

 

After Rand uses the True Power, he is identified as having as having an aura of darkness/shadow. Taim has a similar effect, which was confirmed by BS as being relevant. Thus far the only characters we've seen using the True Power are Moridin/Ishamel and Graendal, who is severely limited in her use

Do you have a quote from BS saying that it's relevant? The one you posted was him saying that the person who noticed it was the first person Sanderson knew of to have noticed it, which is not the same thing. You have to bear in mind some of BS's answers are non-answers. There are some RJ ones like that as well.

 

2. Design/Decor (Black Shayol Ghul Rock) (New)

Brandon Sanderson recently confirmed here that the Black Tower is made from volcanic Shayol Ghul rock.

Doesn't really imply that Taim is Moridin, only that he is connected with the Shadow.

 

 

4. Gestures/Mannerisms (Generally)

 

It is noted that at some point Moridin picks up Rand's physical mannerisms as a result of their balefire link. Particularly here Graendal notes:

 

TGS, Prologue " Strangely, he [Moridin] looked a great deal like Al Thor - of whom she had numerous sketches via her spies - when he stood like that"

 

In book nine, Taim, who is openly disdainful of weapons training, is described by Elayne as having the physical grace of a Warder (after the link is created).

 

"WH, Prologue, Snow "Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-and-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as a tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him as if half the lamps in the room had gone out, not real shadows but an air of imminent violence that seems palapable enough to soak up light".

Hardly indicative of anything. If nothing else, surely you'd have to establish that Rand possesses this deadly grace. And it would be preferable if there was some indication that this was something new. Also, he was dismissive of swords for Asha'man because they have the Power now - he might well have been proficient with them before he started channeling.

 

 

4. Gestures/Mannerism (Disarmerment)

During the gathering of the Forsaken in the TGS prologue (too long to quote), Moridin is repeatedly identified as having to (a) Clench his first and (b) rest his left arm on the mantel, presumably because of his link to Rand.

 

The first time that we see Taim after the battle with Semihrage, in addition to his above-referenced shadowy effect, he also has to rest his arm.

 

KOD Prologue "He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence."

You're reading far more into the quote than is actually there. It does not say or imply that he has to rest his arm. It says he has an outwardly relaxed posture, yet is not actually relaxed.

 

 

5. Dreamspike

 

In ToM , 5 , Moridin gives Graendal the dreamspike, noting that the other was being "put to good use"

 

We know that one particular use of the Dreamspike is to prevent invasion/entry of dreams via TAR. In TGS, Rand enters Moridin's dreams (presumably because of the link) but is never able to do so again. We know from ToM that the second Dreamspike is in the Black Tower. We also don't have any more dream meetings. Could it be because Moridin is using the Dreamspike to protect his dreams

A stretch. It could easily be because Moridin is now Warding his dreams in a way that prevents Rand reaching him that way.

 

]6. Burning Eyes[/b]

Taim is described twice as having burning/fiery eyes, first by Logain in Knife of Dreams and later by Pevara in Towers of Midnight. Ishamel/Baalzimon of course had burning eyes

 

Now, I have to assume that Taim's eyes were not actually burning like Ishamael's but it's interesting phrasing.

Not really, and rather less so when you account for all the other burning eyes out there. Not unless you want to assume that Moridin really gets around. Even if Moridin was Taim, this still doesn't work as foreshadowing given the other uses of the phrase in the series.

 

7. General Power Balance

 

One of the things that has always bugged me about Taim's role in the Shadow is the ridiculous level of authority and power he has. The Forsaken are generally paranoid about their subordinates and carefully curtail their power. Taim has his own invincible army of hundreds of channelers. The only real way I can see this working is him being the most powerful Forsaken. OTOH, it could just be weak/inconsistent characterization. It certainly wouldn't be the first thing that didn't make sense after the fact.

Or he is simply a trusted subordinate. Moridin is quite different from the other Chosen, and might be less worried about any attempt by Taim to usurp him than they would be.

 

So, I'm kind of perplexed. There seem to be too many specific hints for this to be made up. OTOH, there seem to be some fatal flaws with this theory too.

I think a lot of the problem comes down to people reading more into certain events and phrases than is actually there. Much of it is too unspecific anyway, providing evidence of a link between the two but not suggesting they are one and the same.

 

I just have trouble resolving what RJ's statements with what we know about Taim. Whoever he is, he's not actually someone who is in danger from Lord Bashere and/or actually in need of protection from Rand.

I disagree with that assessment. Taim is in danger from Bashere - one channeler can only do so much against masses of armed men, and Bashere isn't just going to feed waves of men at him. Further, the AS are after him. Alone, he has his strength in the Power, but little else. With Rand, he has safety.

[rand4747]

Taim being freed was a BA plot, likely when he was freed he either voluntarily or involuntarily joined with the shadow, he may have already been a darkfriend though, not sure. It could even be he became a dark friend after the founding of the black tower since he cant be the Dragon he will be the next best thing, kill the Dragon and replace him for power. This is where i think that viewing of Logain stepping over a corpse with Rands face but it crumbles away (thats how its put right?) its the corpse of Taim whos still trying to be the Dragon.

 

Anyway I don't think Taim is Moridin, there are similaraities, perhaps there is some sort of connection between them somehow but they aren't the same person.

[fyodor]

2. Design/Decor (Black Shayol Ghul Rock) (New)

Brandon Sanderson recently confirmed here that the Black Tower is made from volcanic Shayol Ghul rock.

Doesn't really imply that Taim is Moridin, only that he is connected with the Shadow.

 

No one else in the Shadow used the black rock in their domicile other than Moridin. It's considered noteworthy by Graendal that he's made his palace out of black rock.

 

 

 

4. Gestures/Mannerisms (Generally)

 

It is noted that at some point Moridin picks up Rand's physical mannerisms as a result of their balefire link. Particularly here Graendal notes:

 

 

 

"WH, Prologue, Snow "Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-and-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as a tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him as if half the lamps in the room had gone out, not real shadows but an air of imminent violence that seems palapable enough to soak up light".

Hardly indicative of anything. If nothing else, surely you'd have to establish that Rand possesses this deadly grace. And it would be preferable if there was some indication that this was something new. Also, he was dismissive of swords for Asha'man because they have the Power now - he might well have been proficient with them before he started channeling.

 

He tells Rand "I can barely avoid stabbing myself and I have never felt the lack" As for Rand, he's a blademaster and a warder so it seems reasonable that he moves like a warder. Everyone we've seen identified as having this grace is a highly trained warrior (Rhuarc, Gawyn) or actually a warder. We also only see this description AFTER the end of CoS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

]6. Burning Eyes[/b]

Taim is described twice as having burning/fiery eyes, first by Logain in Knife of Dreams and later by Pevara in Towers of Midnight. Ishamel/Baalzimon of course had burning eyes

 

Now, I have to assume that Taim's eyes were not actually burning like Ishamael's but it's interesting phrasing.

Not really, and rather less so when you account for all the other burning eyes out there. Not unless you want to assume that Moridin really gets around. Even if Moridin was Taim, this still doesn't work as foreshadowing given the other uses of the phrase in the series.

 

Well a lot of those are Ishamel but I see your point.

 

So, I'm kind of perplexed. There seem to be too many specific hints for this to be made up. OTOH, there seem to be some fatal flaws with this theory too.

I think a lot of the problem comes down to people reading more into certain events and phrases than is actually there. Much of it is too unspecific anyway, providing evidence of a link between the two but not suggesting they are one and the same.

 

The arm and fist stuff is very specific. I don't know of anyone other than Rand who walks around with one arm behind his back.

 

I just have trouble resolving what RJ's statements with what we know about Taim. Whoever he is, he's not actually someone who is in danger from Lord Bashere and/or actually in need of protection from Rand.

I disagree with that assessment. Taim is in danger from Bashere - one channeler can only do so much against masses of armed men, and Bashere isn't just going to feed waves of men at him. Further, the AS are after him. Alone, he has his strength in the Power, but little else. With Rand, he has safety.

 

But you've basically conceded that he's at the very least a trusted lieutenant of Moridin, someone who's given considerable authority and power. His use of Forsaken lingo ("so called aiel") suggests that this wasn't something that developed after his position as M'hael.

[Kahsm]

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Zaela Sedai

Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

 

Robert Jordan

Ta-eem (he said it phonetically). [Don't know how to write down how to say it, but it's not how most people say it.] Sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place were there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai won't be able to come after him.

 

I have no doubt that he is a high ranking DF however...

 

If he were a high ranking DF, wouldn't he have had somewhere else to go to lay low? Someone else to beg to? I suspect if he is, he must have been recruited after Rand set him up in the BT then?

[rand4747]

what better place to hide than in plain sight? Besides he couldn't keep running from Bashere forever, he has to sleep sometime and eventually Basheres army would have cought him asleep and he would die.

[Barid Bel Medar]

If he were a high ranking DF, wouldn't he have had somewhere else to go to lay low? Someone else to beg to? I suspect if he is, he must have been recruited after Rand set him up in the BT then?

 

When you have orders from the Shadow, you do not hesitate to obey, no matter the price.

[Mr Ares]

2. Design/Decor (Black Shayol Ghul Rock) (New)

Brandon Sanderson recently confirmed here that the Black Tower is made from volcanic Shayol Ghul rock.

Doesn't really imply that Taim is Moridin, only that he is connected with the Shadow.

 

No one else in the Shadow used the black rock in their domicile other than Moridin. It's considered noteworthy by Graendal that he's made his palace out of black rock.

No-one else in the Shadow made a domicile from scratch either. Moridin and Taim both had their own places built, while the others moved into existing places.

 

4. Gestures/Mannerisms (Generally)

 

It is noted that at some point Moridin picks up Rand's physical mannerisms as a result of their balefire link. Particularly here Graendal notes:

 

"WH, Prologue, Snow "Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-and-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as a tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him as if half the lamps in the room had gone out, not real shadows but an air of imminent violence that seems palapable enough to soak up light".

Hardly indicative of anything. If nothing else, surely you'd have to establish that Rand possesses this deadly grace. And it would be preferable if there was some indication that this was something new. Also, he was dismissive of swords for Asha'man because they have the Power now - he might well have been proficient with them before he started channeling.

 

He tells Rand "I can barely avoid stabbing myself and I have never felt the lack" As for Rand, he's a blademaster and a warder so it seems reasonable that he moves like a warder. Everyone we've seen identified as having this grace is a highly trained warrior (Rhuarc, Gawyn) or actually a warder. We also only see this description AFTER the end of CoS.

So how does his deadly grace differ from how his movements were described before the end of ACoS? If it isn't something new you don't have a point.

 

 

So, I'm kind of perplexed. There seem to be too many specific hints for this to be made up. OTOH, there seem to be some fatal flaws with this theory too.

I think a lot of the problem comes down to people reading more into certain events and phrases than is actually there. Much of it is too unspecific anyway, providing evidence of a link between the two but not suggesting they are one and the same.

 

The arm and fist stuff is very specific. I don't know of anyone other than Rand who walks around with one arm behind his back.

Only the arm and fist stuff is specific. And even then people might well be reading too much into it.

 

I just have trouble resolving what RJ's statements with what we know about Taim. Whoever he is, he's not actually someone who is in danger from Lord Bashere and/or actually in need of protection from Rand.

I disagree with that assessment. Taim is in danger from Bashere - one channeler can only do so much against masses of armed men, and Bashere isn't just going to feed waves of men at him. Further, the AS are after him. Alone, he has his strength in the Power, but little else. With Rand, he has safety.

 

But you've basically conceded that he's at the very least a trusted lieutenant of Moridin, someone who's given considerable authority and power. His use of Forsaken lingo ("so called aiel") suggests that this wasn't something that developed after his position as M'hael.

As I said, there is much evidence of a link between the two but not much suggesting they are one and the same. Saying I've basically conceded that that Taim is working for Moridin is akin to saying I've pretty much conceded that Taim is working for the Shadow. It's not something I was arguing against. The best evidence you have amounts to Rand, Moridin and Taim all started wandering around with one arm behind their back at about the same time. That's not a compelling case for Taim being Moridin. The evidence for that conclusion is rather thin. The evidence for Taim being a Darkfriend, controlled by Moridin but not the man himself, is much stronger. There are all sorts of details, both major and minor, weighing in against Taim being Moridin. If people want to argue that they are the same, they should be endeavouring to explain away these discrepancies, not spin some of the more ambiguous pieces of evidence to say something they don't.

[fyodor]

 

If he were a high ranking DF, wouldn't he have had somewhere else to go to lay low? Someone else to beg to? I suspect if he is, he must have been recruited after Rand set him up in the BT then?

 

But a lot of what raised initial suspicions (his knowledge of channeling terminology), his use of second age phrasing (so-called Aiel) imply a much longer association.

[OptimusPrime]

[Suttree]

 

Was waiting to see when you would jump in!

[OptimusPrime]

 

Was waiting to see when you would jump in!

 

Battles not over yet :)