The Battle for Caemlyn

[Durinax]

not to mention grady is also worried about his family in the black tower, so that combined with perrin wanting intel on whats happening there could also push mat to the backburner

[Maleshub]

Mat is planning to go to Caemlyn before reconnecting with Rand. He told Moiraine that he has things to do there before Rand. And we know that Perrin promised Mat to have a gateway opened everyday at noon in the same spot for Mat to come back. Grady will be there because both Mat and Perrin believe Moiraine is important in the fight against the Shadow.

 

One possible scenario is for Mat to Travel outside Caemlyn just in time to see the city burn. He has Grady take him to the Traveling ground in the palace; where he leads the Queen's Guards garrisoned there for the first stage of defense (Elayne cannot have stripped the inner city of all forces). Then he would reconnect with Talmanes and the Band.

 

Or he might arrive with Grady and find the Band and mercenaries locked outside the City. Then all would travel to the inner city for the defense.

 

Regardless of the possible scenario's, Mat's intent is to go to Caemlyn right away.

[Durinax]

I suddenly do not trust wot wikia. The aiel are much more experienced, and so are portions of the andoran army (particularily the ones posted to the murandian border).'

 

 

but as for the defence, at last measurement wasnt the band a league outside of the city? they will have to fight their way to the inner city, with the chaos that is happening and the bands inexperience with urban combat and combat with shadowspawn, I think the band shouldnt be counted on to save the city.

 

not to mention the time from the alarm being raised, and the relaxing soldiers to actually get organized (and they would be relaxed being within walking distance to a friendly city). The cities situation is pretty dire.

 

I think mats reference to the inner city wall is that the buildings are too close to it, allowing for easier seiging of it.

[Maleshub]

I suddenly do not trust wot wikia. The aiel are much more experienced, and so are portions of the andoran army (particularily the ones posted to the murandian border).'

 

 

but as for the defence, at last measurement wasnt the band a league outside of the city? they will have to fight their way to the inner city, with the chaos that is happening and the bands inexperience with urban combat and combat with shadowspawn, I think the band shouldnt be counted on to save the city.

 

not to mention the time from the alarm being raised, and the relaxing soldiers to actually get organized (and they would be relaxed being within walking distance to a friendly city). The cities situation is pretty dire.

 

I think mats reference to the inner city wall is that the buildings are too close to it, allowing for easier seiging of it.

 

The Band was moved just outside the walls after Mat met Elayne (a 10 minute walk). It is stated in the books. So, the Band is the closest army to the walls. The can easily secure the outer wall and city gates if they want to. The challenge would be to hold the inner city till you have enough forces to crush the attacking army between two forces: perimeter force and inner city force.

[Durinax]

I suddenly do not trust wot wikia. The aiel are much more experienced, and so are portions of the andoran army (particularily the ones posted to the murandian border).'

 

 

but as for the defence, at last measurement wasnt the band a league outside of the city? they will have to fight their way to the inner city, with the chaos that is happening and the bands inexperience with urban combat and combat with shadowspawn, I think the band shouldnt be counted on to save the city.

 

not to mention the time from the alarm being raised, and the relaxing soldiers to actually get organized (and they would be relaxed being within walking distance to a friendly city). The cities situation is pretty dire.

 

I think mats reference to the inner city wall is that the buildings are too close to it, allowing for easier seiging of it.

 

The Band was moved just outside the walls after Mat met Elayne (a 10 minute walk). It is stated in the books. So, the Band is the closest army to the walls. The can easily secure the outer wall and city gates if they want to. The challenge would be to hold the inner city till you have enough forces to crush the attacking army between two forces: perimeter force and inner city force.

the thing that actually confuses me is how come no one reported to Talmanes the unusual amount of fires in caemlyn

[rand4747]

more fires than the usual amount of arsons :P Even just outside the city you may not notice the attack, hear or even see it for a little while, the walls probably block sight and sound fairly well so until there is enough smoke or fire to be noticeable you wont know a thing. Or the attack is close by.

 

Oh about the channelers they may not use channelers in the attack on the city like in Maradon they blew the wall then went into retirement, didn't fight themselves. As Rand put it when he defended Maradon he almost caused them to come in to fight him, channelers sorta stay on the backlines they don't want to exhaust themselves because then they become weakened to attack by another. Thats what Rand was worried about is after he was worn out or occupied a bunch of Dreadlords or Forsaken coming after him.

 

On another note perhaps the excess of fire is that the BT had been through its civil war already and we haven't read that yet, and Logain is leading a fight against the shadow spawn gaining his glory ;) Doubt that but I was just thinking :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just re; Channelers. The reason they probably will use Channelers is because they are moving huge groups of Shadowspawn through the Ways. And the Waygate is apparently not secure as Rand and Elayne think it is.

 

Normal Shadowspawn wouldn't warrant such a reaction. It has to be some strange talent, perhaps a few DF Ogier, or Channelling.

 

There were good reasons for their Channelers to hold back. Why risk getting shot at when you can do it from afar? Caemlyn has no such advantages, since they are attacking through the Ways.

[rand4747]

Well also in the attack on the Children of the Light the channeler/s did not fight either, they moved troops. I suspect that is likely to happen again they will so what gets the most effect witht he least effort, so get the expendable foot troops in while saving themselves as much as they can, they will be needed to fight other channelers not destroy the city some more, anyone can destroy a city.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with what you are saying to the extent that they will not waste effort and would rather just use Shadowspawn as cannon fodder (literally this time, heh.)

 

But I think that Channelers are important to the Battle of Caemlyn.

 

1. What I said about the Ways. Channelers will be needed to break through initially.

 

2. If the Cannons start blasting holes in Shadowspawn from the Inner City Walls, they will be needed to a. Destroy the cannons b. poke holes in the walls so Shadowspawn can get through.

 

3. the Black Tower is nearby, channelers will be involved for or against.

 

4. Caemlyn possibly has access to hundreds of channelers, the kin, sea folk, Aes Sedai, Asha'man and Wise Ones. Dreadlords will be needed to combat these channelers.

[Maleshub]

The Shadow is very economical in using channelers since that is one of its weaknesses. During the War of Shadow in LTT's time, the Shadow had hundreds, if not thousands of channelers. Now, the Shadow would be hardpressed to field 300 male and female channelers. I think RJ pointed out this weakness in one of his articles, which Suttree cited in another thread.

[Durinax]

I agree with what you are saying to the extent that they will not waste effort and would rather just use Shadowspawn as cannon fodder (literally this time, heh.)

 

But I think that Channelers are important to the Battle of Caemlyn.

 

1. What I said about the Ways. Channelers will be needed to break through initially.

 

2. If the Cannons start blasting holes in Shadowspawn from the Inner City Walls, they will be needed to a. Destroy the cannons b. poke holes in the walls so Shadowspawn can get through.

 

3. the Black Tower is nearby, channelers will be involved for or against.

 

4. Caemlyn possibly has access to hundreds of channelers, the kin, sea folk, Aes Sedai, Asha'man and Wise Ones. Dreadlords will be needed to combat these channelers.

2. I highly doubt the cannons are on the inner city walls. especially considering that they where blasting into the country side, if anything their on the outer walls and facing the wrong way.

 

4. I wouldnt put too much faith in teh kin, their history of being rejects makes them excellent candidates for large amounts of DF insurgency

 

not to mention there are no WO's, few AS (they would presumably force their way into going to the FoM since it is such an important event), and few sea folk (aren't they doing their choosing process, which would call in almost all ship captains and their windfinders?)

 

EDIT: the asha man are also very hard to get in contact with since people cannot travel there

[Barid Bel Medar]

Talamanes is going into Caemlyn primarily (besides saving people I suppose) to make sure the cannons don't get captured by the Shadow. It is possible they would be used. We don't know where the cannons are. Only the test cannons were on the outer wall. In any case, they can be moved, although it would be a bit hard when Shadowspawn are attacking.

 

All of the Channelers are available when word reaches Elyane. They are all the channelers available that could possibly go to Caemlyn.

[Durinax]

Talamanes is going into Caemlyn primarily (besides saving people I suppose) to make sure the cannons don't get captured by the Shadow. It is possible they would be used. We don't know where the cannons are. Only the test cannons were on the outer wall. In any case, they can be moved, although it would be a bit hard when Shadowspawn are attacking.

 

All of the Channelers are available when word reaches Elyane. They are all the channelers available that could possibly go to Caemlyn.

do we know how much time is between the test firings and the start of FoM

[rand4747]

It wasn't long most of the Towers of Midnight Events are within a 1 month time span Except the catchup ones that were catching up from the previous books.

[Maleshub]

Talamanes is going into Caemlyn primarily (besides saving people I suppose) to make sure the cannons don't get captured by the Shadow. It is possible they would be used. We don't know where the cannons are. Only the test cannons were on the outer wall. In any case, they can be moved, although it would be a bit hard when Shadowspawn are attacking.

 

All of the Channelers are available when word reaches Elyane. They are all the channelers available that could possibly go to Caemlyn.

do we know how much time is between the test firings and the start of FoM

 

I would say 2 - 4 weeks. But maybe this part of the plot is moved ahead of others. We know that Elayne has few Dragons out for the Band to practice on (in a rotation); and she has the rest stored in a secret warehouse in Caemlyn. We know that 3 bellfounders in Caemlyn are working around the clock to produce them. So, in a week they are likely to produce 15-20 Dragons. I think that the highest number we're talking about (if my numbers are accurate) are 100 dragons; but I think that 60 is more realistic.

[Durinax]

Talamanes is going into Caemlyn primarily (besides saving people I suppose) to make sure the cannons don't get captured by the Shadow. It is possible they would be used. We don't know where the cannons are. Only the test cannons were on the outer wall. In any case, they can be moved, although it would be a bit hard when Shadowspawn are attacking.

 

All of the Channelers are available when word reaches Elyane. They are all the channelers available that could possibly go to Caemlyn.

do we know how much time is between the test firings and the start of FoM

 

I would say 2 - 4 weeks. But maybe this part of the plot is moved ahead of others. We know that Elayne has few Dragons out for the Band to practice on (in a rotation); and she has the rest stored in a secret warehouse in Caemlyn. We know that 3 bellfounders in Caemlyn are working around the clock to produce them. So, in a week they are likely to produce 15-20 Dragons. I think that the highest number we're talking about (if my numbers are accurate) are 100 dragons; but I think that 60 is more realistic.

for some reason 60 sounds too high for me too. Producing prototype weapons would not go that fast I do not think... but this is all my personal opinion

[baalsmistress]

A battery of 60 cannon would make a serious dent in infantry ranks, in an open field engagement, but I question that they would be of serious value in an urban engagement where buildings will limit both visibility and firing arcs and ranges. Where there is also a requirement on the part of the defenders to attempt to minimise civilian casualties.

[rand4747]

well im fairly sure if the city was attacked the civilions are screwed no matter what you do.

[Maleshub]

for some reason 60 sounds too high for me too. Producing prototype weapons would not go that fast I do not think... but this is all my personal opinion

 

True, 60 could be too high. But regardless of the number, Talmanes wants to save them from the Shadow. I don't think he can use them up to their max potential in defense. He might fire off a few shots when the situation allows it; but that's it (in my opinion).

 

A battery of 60 cannon would make a serious dent in infantry ranks, in an open field engagement, but I question that they would be of serious value in an urban engagement where buildings will limit both visibility and firing arcs and ranges. Where there is also a requirement on the part of the defenders to attempt to minimise civilian casualties.

 

I agree. They won't be the key to the defense; but they might be used sporadically when the situation allows.

 

well im fairly sure if the city was attacked the civilions are screwed no matter what you do.

 

Yeah! Min has foretold Hanlon's much death and rape before he dies. So, it is looking like the civilians in Caemlyn have some difficulties ahead.

 

================

 

Edit: Just read this calendar in another thread. So it seems that the dragons have been under production for 5 weeks.

[Aulduron]

There are several gates to Caemlyn. They don't necesarily have to go past the waygate to get to the dragons. Aludra is probably close to them, probably with enough men to move and use them, until Talmanes gets there.

 

I imagine Mat will have to go to FoM first, since that's where Grady is. He may even go get the horn on his way to Caemlyn.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Murandian forces under the command of Demandred. There are Black Ajah in the city. I think there will be lots of channeling going on. The kin can open gateways for messages and reinforcements. If Elayne doesn't come, how will Daved Hanlon get his chance at her?

 

Depending on the size of a gateway a circle can make, and the size of the roads, I see possible, creative use for gateways in this battle:

 

Picture trollocs clogging the street on one side of the line trying to break through pikemen on the other. Open a gateway from behind the lights line, to behind the shadow. The front lines on trollocs are divided from those behind. Blast dragons and shoot crossbows through the gateway for awhile, then send men and horses through to make another line. Destroy the front rank of trollocs while holding a new line, then open another gateway beyond the new line, rinse and repeat.

 

I doubt this will happen, but I think it's a sound strategy.

 

If Logain and his troupe happen to be in or near the city, he could gain his glory here, although I think that will happen at the BT. Also, the ogier could come save the day. Maybe Logain brings them in, because he happens to be at the stedding anyway.

 

I hope there is no problem with metal in the city.

[Durinax]

There are several gates to Caemlyn. They don't necesarily have to go past the waygate to get to the dragons. Aludra is probably close to them, probably with enough men to move and use them, until Talmanes gets there.

 

I imagine Mat will have to go to FoM first, since that's where Grady is. He may even go get the horn on his way to Caemlyn.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Murandian forces under the command of Demandred. There are Black Ajah in the city. I think there will be lots of channeling going on. The kin can open gateways for messages and reinforcements. If Elayne doesn't come, how will Daved Hanlon get his chance at her?

as far as I remember the band noticing the burning happens near twilight, so Aludra would have minimal forces, just enough to keep it secure from common criminals, not from an actual attack.

[Aulduron]

I meant that Aludra and the guards would only start getting them ready. She loves giving orders. The rest of that would have to wait until Talmanes arrived.

[Durinax]

I meant that Aludra and the guards would only start getting them ready. She loves giving orders. The rest of that would have to wait until Talmanes arrived.

uhm I could see that, but more plausible is that Aludra would be off somewhere else from the dragons, maybe prepping the 'eggs' or some such.

 

 

do we have a direction that the band is in from central caemlyn

[Charlz Guybon]

Met isn't excatly stuck in wilderness...One of Perrin's asha'man(forgot which) makes a gateway at their point of arrival every day at noon. he'll be at FoM soon enough.

 

The real question is, who's gonna inform FoM that ceamlyn is under attack? someone will have to. I think the best possibility is the Kin. i think they will screw up partly for not warning them in time.

 

About the siege, Mat remarked once on its defendibility. i forgot where, but he had memories of trying to attack it, and in his words "Caemlyn never made for an easy fight" and as "build by Ogier with defence in mind". If the Band and the Kin can mount a defence for the Inner city, they will be able to hold it quite long. don't forget that even without mat, the Band is the army in Randland with most fighting experience(source: wot wikia. i know, not too relyable, but not nonsene either.) with the possible exception of Aiel.

 

I do hope the Kin will fight. so far, they've proven completely useless as battle channelers as a group, although exeptions may occur.

 

as for who will assist in defence, i don't really have the feeling i can make a good guess. everyone seems to be busy at FoM. maybe this will be the first on-screen shadow victory.

 

 

The Inner city survived the Trolloc wars, so it should hold for some time depending on the channeling balance.

 

Do we know enough to place the ways on this map?

 

[Aulduron]

When Talmanes read the letter, he looked east to see the city. They must be off the Kings Road. I don't know where in the city the waygate is. They were originally a league outside the city, and were allowed to move closer.