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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Olver's past lives


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Is there the possibility of Olver being the newest incarnation of Birgitte's male partner, Gaidal Cain?

 

Gaidal has always been described as an ugly faced warrior, and in one of the index's is described as being very charming and good with women despite his looks. Does Olver fit the picture?

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This has been answered by RJ. Simple answer, no.

 

But even if he hadn't, Olver is too old to be Gaidal. We saw Gaidal (definitely) in tGH when he was still a hero of the horn. He wouldn't have been there if he was olver.

 

It is a common theory though, so it's not like your silly for thinking it :laugh:

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Olver does seem to fit the description slightly. Maybe RJ liked Gaidal and decided to add some of his features into the story. But it is very clear that Olver isn't Gaidal reborn.

 

I wonder whether RJ used a list of AOL people or people of legends being reborn in the series.

 

Like:

LTT - Rand

Ilyena - Elayne

Aemon - Mat

Latra Posae Decume - Egwene

 

I'm not saying the links of Elayne of Egwene are true, but I wonder whether such a list exists.

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I don't know why everyone in the world has to be someone important reborn. Some people can be important on their own not just because they were once before. And Olver seems like the one least likely to have been anyone, since he doesn't actually do anything interesting besides keeping Mat in Ebou Dar and making Mat yell at people for teaching him bad manners.

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I don't know why everyone in the world has to be someone important reborn. Some people can be important on their own not just because they were once before. And Olver seems like the one least likely to have been anyone, since he doesn't actually do anything interesting besides keeping Mat in Ebou Dar and making Mat yell at people for teaching him bad manners.

 

And being responsible for Mat being absent in PoD, having half a house fall on him :)

 

I am not sure about the people being Reborn.

 

Is there any actual confirmation or more than just suspicion to think that Mat is Aemon?

Ilyena = Elayne only have their name as similarities. And there is no reason to think that it is a connection. Rand al'thor doesn't sound much like Lews Therin Telamon.

 

Egwene = Latra is probably the most probable, although for some reason, I don't like the idea. The opposition to LTT was something specific of the 2nd age, it will not be so with Rand, the women will cooperate this time. I don't think a Latra figure is needed as it was in the AoL. Rand/LTT has already learned about the Taint, and can avoid it. The only reason for Latra was to prevent the Taint affecting both saidin and saidar. It is not something needed now.

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No, Egwene showed in 'The Amylin's Anger' in TOM that she will oppose Rand. Except this time there will be rogue Aes Sedai aiding him.

 

And no, not everyone needs to be someone reborn. But some might be and it would be nice to see this revealed.

Ilyena has more resemblance with Elayne, but yeah... the evidence doesn't go further than the name, the lover and the looks. Rand Sedai hasn't given a clue that he recognised her soul...

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No, Egwene showed in 'The Amylin's Anger' in TOM that she will oppose Rand. Except this time there will be rogue Aes Sedai aiding him.

 

And no, not everyone needs to be someone reborn. But some might be and it would be nice to see this revealed.

Ilyena has more resemblance with Elayne, but yeah... the evidence doesn't go further than the name, the lover and the looks. Rand Sedai hasn't given a clue that he recognised her soul...

 

Re Egwene: I have speculated this will not be the case, that she will cooperate, but there is no way of knowing. Still, the point stands that the Latra soul isn't needed. Latra made an agreement with all female Aes Sedai, and thus prevented the Taint affecting both powers. There is no point in Egwene's opposition if others help out Rand. At least the opposition is not anything to do with Latra soul, if you understand me?

 

Re: Elayne: I thought that she looked like Ilyena too, but it seems to be debatable. Ilyena was blonde, named "Sunhair". Elayne has reddish-gold hair. And in terms of facial features and height, it has nothing to do with the soul. Rand looks nothing like Lews Therin did.

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No, Egwene showed in 'The Amylin's Anger' in TOM that she will oppose Rand. Except this time there will be rogue Aes Sedai aiding him.

 

All she has done is disagreed with his course of action. Considering Rand has no plan for how to seal the bore, refused to discuss it with her and looking at his actions leading up to the meeting in the WT there is really nothing else she could have done. Further she has agreed to meet him at the FoM to discuss the seals.

 

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

If Min has figured out how to seal the bore, and Rand lays out a rational course of action, Egwene will go along.

Edited by Suttree
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Yeah, as I said, the Pattern doesn't need opposition like it did last time, because Rand will not risk the Taint, and if it gets really desperate, he will only risk tainting Saidin again, not risk both. Also, this age is not a repeat of the AoL. With Rand it makes sense for him to be LTT to be reborn, because it is the "dragon soul" which combats the DO. It is needed in both an incomplete and complete Sealing.

 

Latra's soul, however, does not need to be reborn in a prominent position again, since there will be no taint, and no need to "preserve" saidar.

 

Egwene's opposition is not anything unusal, not enough to say that she disagrees because she is Latra reborn. Many others disagree with Rand aswell, most just don't know at all. Elayne shares the same sentiment as Egwene, not because she is someone reborn and "fated" to opposition, but because Rand (on purpose, mind you) didn't explain himself.

 

If somebody came to your house (the Pattern) and said "In one month, I am going to unlock your doors and let a tiger in, good day," your immediate reaction would be "No! are you crazy!?" and you would plan to convince the person no to let the tiger in and maul your family.

 

However, when the meeting before the day comes, the person (Rand) explained and said "Look, the tiger is going to break down your door and ruin your house, and each day it waits, it gets more hungry and stronger. So, we are going to open the door for it, and have a team ready with tranquilizers to bring it down so it doesn't get out of hand." You would be like, oh, ok, when you put it like that, fair enough. (I know it isn't the greatest comparison, but the major point gets across.)

 

Now, that is not to say that she ISN"T Latra reborn, just that the "evidence" for her being Latra reborn isn't necessarily real evidence at all.

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we have seen no evidence that someone is reborn twice in the same age. in mat's case his head was filled with memories, not his own, or his own soul's, just memories from the age that he happens to live in. name one example of a confirmed individual from the third age who was reborn in the third age. and i mean naturaly of course (birgitte might have lived earlier in the age).

 

i personaly think that no soul is born twice in an age.

 

(EDIT oh and if birgette did, just because we know that gaidal is born, doesnt mean that he had been born when she might have had a natural life near the time of the founding of the tower, she had memories of never finding him as well as at least one memory of being older than him)

Edited by Testy al'Carr
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Birgitte's memories have been fading, and now she doesn't remember much before the founding of the white tower. She has many stories about her in different lives, more than seven atleast and they shouldn't be remembered if there was only one per age. She seems surprised that Mat hadn't heard the story of her being trapped in the tower of genji, which wouldn't be surprising if it had of happened in a previous Age.

 

Birgitte and Gaidel are a love story however, not a builder of empires or the champion of light, so they might be the exception or it might be that certain heroes are more prone to be spun out than others.

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Birgitte's memories have been fading, and now she doesn't remember much before the founding of the white tower. She has many stories about her in different lives, more than seven atleast and they shouldn't be remembered if there was only one per age. She seems surprised that Mat hadn't heard the story of her being trapped in the tower of genji, which wouldn't be surprising if it had of happened in a previous Age.

 

Birgitte and Gaidel are a love story however, not a builder of empires or the champion of light, so they might be the exception or it might be that certain heroes are more prone to be spun out than others.

mat doesn't recognize many of the things that she thinks he would. i find it possible that she has memories that encompass more than one turning of the wheel, and herself might confuse them. her story about genji, and thom's song, could be older than the age, thom thought about the song because mat told him the story, he knows who she is, and was able to connect it, but the song could be very old, he even said that he had to translate it from a pretty obscure peice that he knew, and if i remember right it was in the old tongue, but i cant remember if it was in high chant in the old tongue or not, just that it was obscure. thom may not have known before what the song was about because the story had passed into legend or myth with little fact to back it, and that is not something that is expected in a single age based on the first bit in the first chapter of every book.

Edited by Testy al'Carr
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Birgitte has information on too much of the past age than she could get from one lifetime in it in my opinion. She doesn't talk to anyone who knows they are in TAR and those that don't are only there for a few seconds, so those avenues of information are closed to her. Perhaps she could spend her time reading letters in Elaidas study like the wonder girls do, but it seems like she knows the first hand.

 

The Dragon and Hawkwing are probably once in the third age souls, and the chooser siblings who usher in the new ages too, but Birgitte and Gaidel were in the War of Power, atleast once in the third age and were being spun out when Birgitte was ripped out. I don't think there is evidence enough to say that the heroes can only be born once an age, though there is that the Dragon can only be born once in the Third Age.

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Re: Elayne: I thought that she looked like Ilyena too, but it seems to be debatable. Ilyena was blonde, named "Sunhair". Elayne has reddish-gold hair. And in terms of facial features and height, it has nothing to do with the soul. Rand looks nothing like Lews Therin did.

 

In TFoH2, Rand has a clear memory of Ilyena, who has 'golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's'. But I do agree that physical resemblance has nothing to do with being someone reborn. As you say, there's Rand and LTT.

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Birgitte has information on too much of the past age than she could get from one lifetime in it in my opinion. She doesn't talk to anyone who knows they are in TAR and those that don't are only there for a few seconds, so those avenues of information are closed to her. Perhaps she could spend her time reading letters in Elaidas study like the wonder girls do, but it seems like she knows the first hand.

 

The Dragon and Hawkwing are probably once in the third age souls, and the chooser siblings who usher in the new ages too, but Birgitte and Gaidel were in the War of Power, atleast once in the third age and were being spun out when Birgitte was ripped out. I don't think there is evidence enough to say that the heroes can only be born once an age, though there is that the Dragon can only be born once in the Third Age.

i agree that she knows allot, but the age that the knowledge comes from to me is questionable, when she first got cast out of tar i suspect she had memories from many turnings of the wheel, and that would mean that even if she starts to focus in on the spoke of the wheel for the third age, she may be remembering something from another turn. as i said she remembers lives where she never met gaidal, she distantly remembers a life where she was older than gaidal. it may be that her most recent life in the third age was one of those lives where she never met gaidal, and her memory of the accepted who bonded a warder was from another turning entirely based on that story having nothing to do with aes sedai in this turning. every turning is different but similar, so her memories may have all sorts of flaws because she started out remembering ages in more than one way, if it was just two turnings that she remembered when cast out of tar, that is still two third ages, it gets worse the more ages she started out remembering. her memory isn't degrading (in my mind) because she is losing it from being cast out of tar, but because her mind is human, and a mortal human has a hard enough time remembering the events of their lifetime, let alone hundreds of lifetimes, maybe thousands. things are running together for her, and that makes her memories all suspect when it comes to accuracy and timing.

Edited by Testy al'Carr
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we have seen no evidence that someone is reborn twice in the same age. in mat's case his head was filled with memories, not his own, or his own soul's, just memories from the age that he happens to live in. name one example of a confirmed individual from the third age who was reborn in the third age. and i mean naturaly of course (birgitte might have lived earlier in the age).

 

i personaly think that no soul is born twice in an age.

 

(EDIT oh and if birgette did, just because we know that gaidal is born, doesnt mean that he had been born when she might have had a natural life near the time of the founding of the tower, she had memories of never finding him as well as at least one memory of being older than him)

 

But Mat also has memories from before the Finns...

 

"Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhiadem! Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!"

 

Not certain but it would appear to be Aemon commanding his guard.

 

sleepinghour

In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

Terez

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

Edited by Suttree
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we Know people get reborn more often - altough it varies. Rand is the Dragonsoul's most recent incarnation since LTT, but Birgitte has been born many times this age. she remebers at least 4 lives since the trolloc wars, and claimed to have forgotten many more. the AoL were about her older memories.

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we have seen no evidence that someone is reborn twice in the same age. in mat's case his head was filled with memories, not his own, or his own soul's, just memories from the age that he happens to live in. name one example of a confirmed individual from the third age who was reborn in the third age. and i mean naturaly of course (birgitte might have lived earlier in the age).

 

i personaly think that no soul is born twice in an age.

 

(EDIT oh and if birgette did, just because we know that gaidal is born, doesnt mean that he had been born when she might have had a natural life near the time of the founding of the tower, she had memories of never finding him as well as at least one memory of being older than him)

 

But Mat also has memories from before the Finns...

 

"Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhiadem! Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!"

 

Not certain but it would appear to be Aemon commanding his guard.

 

sleepinghour

In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

Terez

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

bloodline is not a rebirth, there is very likely a bloodline connection for mat to the nobles of manatheren, tam even carries a very similar last name from the kings of manatherine, i think mat just has a strong connection to his ancestors, not some sort of rebirth.

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we have seen no evidence that someone is reborn twice in the same age. in mat's case his head was filled with memories, not his own, or his own soul's, just memories from the age that he happens to live in. name one example of a confirmed individual from the third age who was reborn in the third age. and i mean naturaly of course (birgitte might have lived earlier in the age).

 

i personaly think that no soul is born twice in an age.

 

(EDIT oh and if birgette did, just because we know that gaidal is born, doesnt mean that he had been born when she might have had a natural life near the time of the founding of the tower, she had memories of never finding him as well as at least one memory of being older than him)

 

But Mat also has memories from before the Finns...

 

"Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhiadem! Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!"

 

Not certain but it would appear to be Aemon commanding his guard.

 

sleepinghour

In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

Terez

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

bloodline is not a rebirth, there is very likely a bloodline connection for mat to the nobles of manatheren, tam even carries a very similar last name from the kings of manatherine, i think mat just has a strong connection to his ancestors, not some sort of rebirth.

 

Oh I wouldn't say it is a sure thing, the phrase where he commands what we know was the kings guard is very suggestive however...

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Oh I wouldn't say it is a sure thing, the phrase where he commands what we know was the kings guard is very suggestive however...

fair enough =] i also can't speak with any certainty toward my theory. just always thought it was as moir said, that it was his strong connection to the old blood more than him being someone reborn.

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