Unknown Ta'veren?

[Thrasymachus]

I think it work a bit differently, actually. Just being in the center of something important doesn't make one ta'veren. I mean, someone has to be there in that spot.

 

Precisely. It's something more than just standing at the center of events. And because of that, standing at the center of things when something big is happening, or being the center often, can only ever be suggestive of ta'veren. It's never conclusive. In order to be certain, or at least have a better argument, for when someone is or isn't ta'veren, you have to figure out what that "something more" is, and show that the person in question meets or fails to meet that criteria. That's the point of my "main character of the Wheel" theory of ta'veren-ness. Either that, or have someone with a Talent for seeing 'em look and say, "Yep, they're glowing," or "Nope, no glow."

[ShowMeYourRage]

Is Cads considered a major character?

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 21st, 2006

 

Robert Jordan's Blog: IT'S BEEN AWHILE (Verbatim)

Robert Jordan

 

For ben, of course women can be ta'veren. None of the major female characters in the books is ta'veren, though. The Wheel doesn't cast ta'veren around indiscriminately. There has to be a specific reason or need. (I tossed in the "major" just to leave you something to argue about.)

 

He really knew how to screw with the audience, that's all I can say.

[Edynol]

Precisely. It's something more than just standing at the center of events. And because of that, standing at the center of things when something big is happening, or being the center often, can only ever be suggestive of ta'veren. It's never conclusive. In order to be certain, or at least have a better argument, for when someone is or isn't ta'veren, you have to figure out what that "something more" is, and show that the person in question meets or fails to meet that criteria. That's the point of my "main character of the Wheel" theory of ta'veren-ness. Either that, or have someone with a Talent for seeing 'em look and say, "Yep, they're glowing," or "Nope, no glow."

 

Yeah exactly what I was thinking. lol.

 

Is Cads considered a major character?

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 21st, 2006

 

Robert Jordan's Blog: IT'S BEEN AWHILE (Verbatim)

Robert Jordan

 

For ben, of course women can be ta'veren. None of the major female characters in the books is ta'veren, though. The Wheel doesn't cast ta'veren around indiscriminately. There has to be a specific reason or need. (I tossed in the "major" just to leave you something to argue about.)

 

He really knew how to screw with the audience, that's all I can say.

Yeah that's what I was getting at. Of course, Maria said later that none of the females are currently ta'veren. But she said nothing about them being ta'veren in the past before the main story takes place. All the things Cadsuane and others did was before the story.

[Thrasymachus]

He really knew how to screw with the audience, that's all I can say.

 

That's one of the reasons I persist in demanding harder evidence that LTT was really ta'veren. It would be just like my impression of RJ to write and talk about things in such a way as to give everybody the impression that he was, only to have it turn out that he wasn't really, and that RJ intended it to be another example of people taking things for granted or exaggerating things after 3000 years of story-telling, that he just never got around to exposing because it wasn't really that important, and nobody ever really questioned it. Which is just to say that this is a possibility that has yet to be ruled out, not that it's true or even likely. Even so, finding definitively that LTT was a ta'veren doesn't do much to help or hurt the project of trying to understand the nature of ta'veren.

[Luckers]

Thanks Luckers. As I said, it was always fairly likely LTT was a ta'veren, even given my interpretation of ta'veren-ness, it's hard to see how LTT wasn't the main character in the War of Power. Still, I'd like the reference for that quote, what page it was on, who said it, and the fuller context of that quote. I suspect that's the same quote as before, given by Loial, with the "I suppose" part left off to give it an air of authority. Better would be the quote from Graendal as well, if it exists. But for the life of me, excepting Loial's supposition, I can't recall anybody mentioning LTT as ta'veren who would know, and the Forsaken would certainly know.

 

As for standards of evidence to argue whether or not someone was ta'veren, it depends on your theory of ta'veren. If being ta'veren is just what RJ and the books describe, as standing at the center of the weaving, then there should be all kinds of ta'veren, from very weak to very strong ones, from those who are only ta'veren for a short while, perhaps mere moments, to those who are ta'veren for a significant portion of their lives. And they should be popping up all over the place as the Pattern is woven. On the other hand, if there's something more going on, something akin to my "main character of the Wheel" thing going on, then the standards of evidence are much more difficult to ascertain, and "real" ta'veren would be much more rare.

 

It is the Loial one--though I looked through the thread I didn't see that it had already been offered--though it surprises me thats not enough for you. Of course I've seen others take the same line against your claims that we 'know' the Dragon Soul is a hero of the horn, despite the familiarity of the other heroes, or Hawkwings inference that Rand would know how it is to be a Hero if he could but remember, simply because those words specifically are never stated. I've never seen the value of such 'contentious for the sake of being contentious' reasoning, but if it floats your boat....

 

I did do a quick look through for the Graendal and Siuan ones, but cannot find them--or rather, I think I found what I was thinking of with the Siuan one, and it was a reference to Hawkwing. I still have a sense that there is something out there by Graendal about Lews Therin being ta'veren, but if it does exist, and given I can't easily find it, it'd probably be obscure enough that it wouldn't satisfy you anyway. I did find this for you, from Mesaana, if its of interest "He was right about one thing; Lews Therin had made his own luck as a mint made coin. In her opinion it seemed that so far Rand al'Thor did the same."

 

The inference of a similar subversion of chance occuring. Obviously Mesaana doesn't attribute any of Lews Therin's luck to the influence of ta'veren--but then, nor does she with Rand, and we know that his ta'maral'ailen is responsible for a fair amount of his 'minting his own luck'--not all, but enough that the comparison being made here by Mesaana is interesting.

[Thrasymachus]

I want to be clear that I am not arguing that Lews Therin was not ta'veren. I think he very likely was. My point is about standards of evidence, and whether we actually have the evidence necessary to make claims, in this case, claims about who was or could be ta'veren. Despite the fact that it feels like there ought to be some quote out there that definitively validates the belief in LTT's ta'veren-ness, I really doubt that there is one, either in the books themselves, or in the recorded statements by the authors. In fact, there seems to be a real dearth of inferences to LTT's potential ta'veren-ness. It seems as if it's just completely taken for granted by everyone, from characters in the books, to the authors to the fans, when it's never explicitly stated by a reliable source anywhere. And perhaps that's the best evidence that he was, that everybody believes it to such an extent that almost nobody who really knows ever bothers to say it out loud.

 

And I think there's quite a difference between pointing out that we lack a reliable quote from the authors, or scene in the books that establishes Lews Therin's ta'veren-ness, and denying the obvious relevance of a climactic scene, not to mention quotes from the author, which establish Rand's Heroism. First of all, I pointed out that it was a nitpick, and reiterated that it doesn't matter much to the discussion underway. People thought they could disprove that nitpick, but so far, the only evidence we have is the opinion of an essentially teenaged high-school drop-out Ogier. And it's not like lots of other people who would know haven't talked about Lews Therin, and wouldn't have had the opportunity to mention it in comparison to Rand's ta'veren-ness. A statement from Moiraine, Suian or Verin would also be more than adequate as would a mention by the Forsaken, but in all my looking for it, I have yet to find one that's a simple confirmation of it.

[DaoineSidhe]

Ah Luckers, I tried that exact same quote to prove LTT being a ta'veren earlier in this thread... to no avail.. lol. I had similar hopes for there being another quote from someone more "reliable" to prove LTT being ta'veren, but I did a search of all the e-books for the word "veren" last night, and well.... no references to LTT being ta'veren again... I wish there were, but it doesn't bother me too much because I find the Loial quote to be quite sufficient proof for myself.

 

Back to other people being possibly ta'veren. I think Gitara Sedai is an good candidate for a past ta'veren. She really shaped the Wheel to prepare for the birth of the Dragon Reborn. Luc to the Blight, Shaiel/Tigraine to the waste. Her influence of events during these times, while might not qualify for the whole "main character" idea, but it seems somewhat similar to what Mabraim did in forming the Compact. ie back door dealings, politics, etc. Just a thought.

[TootThatHorn]

i gotta say i feel like the debate about LTT being taveren is pretty simple. If someone looked at a flower and said "hey dude that flower is yellow" im sure my response would be pretty sarcastic, like "thanks man, i wouldve never figured that out on my own" as far as minor taveren, i seem to remember there being talk of people being taveren for a short time, just long enough for the pattern to get what they need out of them and then they go on their merry way, but i also dont think its something that gets tossed around willy nilly. If every little action had to have a taveren at its core, which a taveren is bent more to the patterns will then another, then free will wouldnt exist much. The pattern is still only weaving threads and they dont necessarily need to suck in all the other threads around them to accomplish something. Besides, the actions needed to bring about the birth and raising and feats of the dragon, those are laid out in prophecy, and on top of that i would think that the coming of the dragon, and the strength of his taveren pull, would be strong enough to reverberate through time, even the past, and it is after all the will of the pattern to see that it happens.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I did do a quick look through for the Graendal and Siuan ones, but cannot find them--or rather, I think I found what I was thinking of with the Siuan one, and it was a reference to Hawkwing. I still have a sense that there is something out there by Graendal about Lews Therin being ta'veren.

 

The inference of a similar subversion of chance occuring. Obviously Mesaana doesn't attribute any of Lews Therin's luck to the influence of ta'veren--but then, nor does she with Rand, and we know that his ta'maral'ailen is responsible for a fair amount of his 'minting his own luck'--not all, but enough that the comparison being made here by Mesaana is interesting.

 

1. Yeah, I remember something about Graendal, not in tGS prologue, Ill keep searching

 

2. Yeah, I think that is an indication of it as well. Demandred thinks the same thing, that Lews Therin was lucky. It is in the BWB, he thought that LTT was a "lucky fool."

 

Heavily biased of course, there can be no more bais source than Demandred, but both Mesaana and Demandred comment on his luck. Coincidence?

[Edynol]

Yeah I mean I could argue that the DO is not evil. Sure people think he is evil, convince that they 'know' he is evil, but any real proof until we figure out his true motives? he isn, as far as we know, an un-creator, it's just his innate nature, it's like breathing to him. So to him, all these light-siders are trying to suffocate him, in a sense. So of course he doesn't like them, and after being strangled and barely allowed to breath for untold eons, who wouldn't want to get back at them? Also, similar too how Rand thinks we need to clear away the rubble to seal the bore anew, maybe the DO simply wants to clear away the world so he can make things anew. I mean, take our world for instance. We have polluted it and contaminated and screwed it all up. What if Mother Nature or something of the like decided to destroy all humans so that the world and all the other species would survive? 90% of the population would call her evil because she doesn't think we are the most important thing in the world, which we are not.

 

Anyways, I'm not saying the DO isn't evil, I am certain that he is, just using it as an example. Everything he does is considered evil so most of consider it as fact, despite any hard, confirmed proof. Does anyone remember any of the Forsaken referring to him as evil? I don't.

[Smittyphi]

I still don't see how my quote here doesn't conclusively settle the LTT ta'veren debate. BS did not refute the ta'veren claim as the questioner posed the question with LTT being ta'veren and whether that had any influence on what he could do with the OP

[Luckers]

Firstly, Thraysmachus, I will acknowledge fully that we cannot disprove your point. There is a chance that LTT was not ta'veren. Now, whilst you're enjoying that victory, let's touch on something else, ever so briefly.

 

First of all, I pointed out that it was a nitpick, and reiterated that it doesn't matter much to the discussion underway. People thought they could disprove that nitpick, but so far, the only evidence we have is the opinion of an essentially teenaged high-school drop-out Ogier. And it's not like lots of other people who would know haven't talked about Lews Therin, and wouldn't have had the opportunity to mention it in comparison to Rand's ta'veren-ness.

 

Really? You're disparaging the education of a 90 year old Ogier, simply because to other Ogier he is young and uneducated? You name him a 'drop-out' because he only bothered with half a dozen or so decades of formal schooling before heading off to the world? This is the same Ogier whose knowledge both Moiraine and Verin, seperately, cite as valuable--and as exceeding their own in many ways--did not you cite those two as being solid sources? Did not they cite Loial by the same note?

 

Of course that means nothing to the argument at hand, I just found the logic of your point hollow--or rather, I felt that you threw your antipathy within this discussion against Loial due to your opponents citing him. In reality Loial has proven himself a highly capable scholar, and indeed in this instance he was merely doing his due diligence--it's stated several times within the series that information about ta'veren from the Age of Legends has become blurry. Loial was acknowledging this--and yet, he still offers Lews Therin as a ta'veren--this, the same Ogier who is able to [accurately] identify Rand [and his two friends, a reality which was previously unheard of] merely from the story of his adventures.

 

If anything his comment of 'i suppose' adds to the validicy of his statement. This is not a boast, but rather the statement of a careful scholar, one who has apparently seen enough evidence that he feels comfortable offering this supposition.

[Edynol]

Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and say that there may not be any undeniable proof, but LTT being ta'veren is indeed a fact. So until you can disprove it beyond all doubt, it will remain as fact. We have given you proof, you just don't accept it as proof. You prove nothing other than you're stubborn.

[Thrasymachus]

I haven't declared victory in this debate. I would consider victory someone actually finding a quote that's definitive one way or another. "I suppose" that Lew Therin was ta'veren as well, in much the same way that Loial does. Which is to say, I don't know it for absolute truth, and neither does he. Moreover, that "teenaged high-school dropout" line was more about how Loial is not really in a position to know. He cut short his education, admitted he didn't pay as much attention to the ta'veren lectures as he should have, is essentially an impressionable kid, and perhaps most importantly lived, 3000 years after Lews Therin died. Given Ogier lifespans, that's like expecting a 16 year old kid from Wales to know more about William the Conqueror than 1066 and Normandy. I just don't know how anybody could go from "Loial supposes he was probably ta'veren," to, "Lews Therin was definitely ta'veren and Loial's opinion is good enough evidence of that to make it certain." And I think it's interesting, but not telling, that none of the people who would definitely know have said anything about it. Not one of the Forsaken, in the aftermaths of getting their butts handed to them by Rand, or in the run-up and planning stages of their operations, even so much as thinks, "I have to be careful, that boy's as strongly ta'veren as he ever was as Lews Therin."

 

And the reason, Smitty, that that quote doesn't establish Lews Therin as ta'veren, is because BS doesn't answer the question. If you swap out the content of the question and answer but preserve the form, you'll see what I mean. To be sure that I'm not cheating, I'll post both the original quote, and then alter the content so you can be sure that the form of the question and answer are preserved.

Matt: (I riffed off a second related question from WotLuckers which was: Did he have the same extra abilities?) Instead I asked: Considering what you mentioned regarding LTT's ability to sense the lack of inhabitants within miles of the spot he was at in the Prologue [of TEotW], is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent?

Brandon: (paraphrased) It's not a Talent, but I won't say whether it is a factor of being the Dragon or something about being ta'veren.

 

The question here is "Is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent" and the answer is, "It's not a Talent, but I won't say...."

Now, replace that question with, "Are the bruises on your girlfriend's face something that came from running into a wall, your continuing to beat her, or some medical condition like hemophilia?" and the answer is, "It's not from running into a wall, but I won't say whether it's because I continue to beat her or because she has hemophilia or anything like it." Does the answer to this question establish whether your girlfriend has hemophilia or something like it? Of course not, and in the same way, it doesn't establish whether Lews Therin was ta'veren or not. At best, it's suggestive, and at worst, it's irrelevant.

[Edynol]

I denounce your victory and claim it for myself. LTT was ta'veren. it is fact. Disprove me or concede.

[Smittyphi]

And the reason, Smitty, that that quote doesn't establish Lews Therin as ta'veren, is because BS doesn't answer the question. If you swap out the content of the question and answer but preserve the form, you'll see what I mean. To be sure that I'm not cheating, I'll post both the original quote, and then alter the content so you can be sure that the form of the question and answer are preserved.

Matt: (I riffed off a second related question from WotLuckers which was: Did he have the same extra abilities?) Instead I asked: Considering what you mentioned regarding LTT's ability to sense the lack of inhabitants within miles of the spot he was at in the Prologue [of TEotW], is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent?

Brandon: (paraphrased) It's not a Talent, but I won't say whether it is a factor of being the Dragon or something about being ta'veren.

 

The question here is "Is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent" and the answer is, "It's not a Talent, but I won't say...."

Now, replace that question with, "Are the bruises on your girlfriend's face something that came from running into a wall, your continuing to beat her, or some medical condition like hemophilia?" and the answer is, "It's not from running into a wall, but I won't say whether it's because I continue to beat her or because she has hemophilia or anything like it." Does the answer to this question establish whether your girlfriend has hemophilia or something like it? Of course not, and in the same way, it doesn't establish whether Lews Therin was ta'veren or not. At best, it's suggestive, and at worst, it's irrelevant.

 

The question is phased in a way that says that indicates that LTT is indisputably the Dragon, is ta'veren and had the talent to detect living souls. BS DID denounce the talent part but would not say if it was because he was the Dragon or because he was ta'veren.

 

In your example, it's like the girlfriend saying, "No, I'm not clumsy but I'm not going to say if these particular bruises comes from my abusive boyfriend or my medical condition."

[Thrasymachus]

I denounce your victory and claim it for myself. LTT was ta'veren. it is fact. Disprove me or concede.

 

That's not exactly a sound methodology. If it were, then you could pull the same thing with a young Cadsuane, or Gitara Sedai, or Janduin, or literally anyone else you could think of.

 

Edit, rather than double-post:

The question explicitly assumes those three options as the relevant possibilities. The answer acknowledges one of those as a possibility, then denies its actuality. Of the other two, the answer neither accepts them as possibilities, nor denies them as such. In other words, if the girlfriend says, "No, I'm not clumsy, but I'm not going to say if my boyfriend beats me or I have a medical condition," then you still can't tell whether she has a medical condition or not.

[Edynol]

Yeah I could, but there it is. Same basic logic you are using, just not so many words. See what I'm getting at?

[Luckers]

I haven't declared victory in this debate. I would consider victory someone actually finding a quote that's definitive one way or another. "I suppose" that Lew Therin was ta'veren as well, in much the same way that Loial does. Which is to say, I don't know it for absolute truth, and neither does he. Moreover, that "teenaged high-school dropout" line was more about how Loial is not really in a position to know. He cut short his education, admitted he didn't pay as much attention to the ta'veren lectures as he should have, is essentially an impressionable kid, and perhaps most importantly lived, 3000 years after Lews Therin died. Given Ogier lifespans, that's like expecting a 16 year old kid from Wales to know more about William the Conqueror than 1066 and Normandy. I just don't know how anybody could go from "Loial supposes he was probably ta'veren," to, "Lews Therin was definitely ta'veren and Loial's opinion is good enough evidence of that to make it certain." And I think it's interesting, but not telling, that none of the people who would definitely know have said anything about it. Not one of the Forsaken, in the aftermaths of getting their butts handed to them by Rand, or in the run-up and planning stages of their operations, even so much as thinks, "I have to be careful, that boy's as strongly ta'veren as he ever was as Lews Therin."

 

And the reason, Smitty, that that quote doesn't establish Lews Therin as ta'veren, is because BS doesn't answer the question. If you swap out the content of the question and answer but preserve the form, you'll see what I mean. To be sure that I'm not cheating, I'll post both the original quote, and then alter the content so you can be sure that the form of the question and answer are preserved.

Matt: (I riffed off a second related question from WotLuckers which was: Did he have the same extra abilities?) Instead I asked: Considering what you mentioned regarding LTT's ability to sense the lack of inhabitants within miles of the spot he was at in the Prologue [of TEotW], is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent?

Brandon: (paraphrased) It's not a Talent, but I won't say whether it is a factor of being the Dragon or something about being ta'veren.

 

The question here is "Is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent" and the answer is, "It's not a Talent, but I won't say...."

Now, replace that question with, "Are the bruises on your girlfriend's face something that came from running into a wall, your continuing to beat her, or some medical condition like hemophilia?" and the answer is, "It's not from running into a wall, but I won't say whether it's because I continue to beat her or because she has hemophilia or anything like it." Does the answer to this question establish whether your girlfriend has hemophilia or something like it? Of course not, and in the same way, it doesn't establish whether Lews Therin was ta'veren or not. At best, it's suggestive, and at worst, it's irrelevant.

 

I've reviewed your response, considered your argument, and I believe my response to you is... *yawn*

 

See ya later.

[Thrasymachus]

It's not at all the same logic, because I'm not coming to any conclusions. There's a big difference between judging a claim as fact and withholding or moderating judgment of that claim. You're claiming as a fact that Lews Therin was ta'veren, I'm pointing out that we don't actually have the evidence to make that claim certain. Given everything we know, it is likely, but it is nowhere confirmed, at best, it is implied (under a certain interpretation) by those who would know, or supposed by those who wouldn't. It's one of those things that constitutes "common knowledge" that gets taken for granted when building explanations and theories. But even, and perhaps especially common knowledge deserves to be scrutinized when building explanations and theories.

 

And I'm sorry I'm boring you Luckers. To be fair, I don't think I or anyone else asked you for your review, your consideration, or your response to the question. And I suspect that you're feeling a bit miffed that you were able to add no more to the question than what had already been covered and shown to be inadequate. Perhaps you'd feel better if you applied your not inconsiderable knowledge of the texts and interviews and abilities with wordsmithing to something that's actually relevant to the plot and the characters, instead of mucking about in these trivialities.

[Edynol]

Actually I did ask for it. lol. And I am still right. :)