Unknown Ta'veren?

[Thrasymachus]

So for the Dragon, the wheel is gonna make sure he can influence events, thus making him ta'veren. Otherwise, he'd just be another male channeler and nothing special about him.

 

Well, except for being The Dragon. The Hero of the Horn who's tied to the Land and yadda yadda yadda. He doesn't need to be ta'veren for any of that, that's his by virtue of the nature of the Dragon Soul. Ta'veren isn't an innate attribute of any soul, it's an attribute acquired through the weaving of the Pattern. My point is we don't know for sure whether Lews Therin ever was ta'veren or not. Is it likely that he was? Sure, why not? But the only evidence we have was Loial wondering about it, and an offhand remark by BS that doesn't actually imply that he was one. And my point is, it hardly makes that much difference.Ta'veren-ness comes and goes, and it works in weird ways. One could equally argue that Lews Therin was ta'veren leading up to the strike, and it was his ta'veren-ness working on Latra that caused her to so vehemently disagree with him, because apparently, that's what the Pattern required, so that at least one-half of the Source remains untainted. So Cadsuane could have been a minor ta'veren early in her career, but without some testimony from people who could be relied upon to know, we have absolutely no way of knowing. You might as well speculate that she's a Hero of the Horn as well.

[DaoineSidhe]

To end the LTT ta'veren discussion of this thread:

 

tEotW Ch. 36 The Web of the Pattern

Loial: Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. The first beinding to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose."

 

Now that that's settled.. Back to Cadsuane being a ta'veren. I think there is some merit to the idea, especially because there seems to be a strong suggestion that there are more ta'veren at work in the Pattern than we know. We know who the super bigs ones are, but AS and others who know mention things like "He's the strongest ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing". Well, do we know of any other ta'veren since Artur Hawking?! The answer is no, or at least we don't. So there must be some ta'veren who don't necessarily shake the world to its foundations. And the way Cadsuane seemed to be at the heart of so many of the big events of her day, well, does seem to point to her having been ta'veren at one point. Of course, I don't think we will ever get an answer on this, but it is kind of fun to contemplate.

[Suttree]

To end the LTT ta'veren discussion of this thread:

 

tEotW Ch. 36 The Web of the Pattern

Loial: Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. The first beinding to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose."

 

Now that that's settled..

 

What part of "I suppose" would conclusively settle it? Sounds like speculation to me...

[DaoineSidhe]

Except for Robert Jordan wrote it.. And why would he mention that, in this first book, to just throw us off? The main reason this mention is here is to foreshadow Rand being the Dragon Reborn, and so, there is no reason for Loial (and RJ through him) to lie/be wrong on this point.

[Edynol]

Suttree, let it go please Just get back on topic. Start your own LTT topic if you wanna debate him please.

 

Now that that's settled.. Back to Cadsuane being a ta'veren. I think there is some merit to the idea, especially because there seems to be a strong suggestion that there are more ta'veren at work in the Pattern than we know. We know who the super bigs ones are, but AS and others who know mention things like "He's the strongest ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing". Well, do we know of any other ta'veren since Artur Hawking?! The answer is no, or at least we don't. So there must be some ta'veren who don't necessarily shake the world to its foundations. And the way Cadsuane seemed to be at the heart of so many of the big events of her day, well, does seem to point to her having been ta'veren at one point. Of course, I don't think we will ever get an answer on this, but it is kind of fun to contemplate.

 

Yeah maybe I can get Terez or someone to ask in the next interview. lol. Weren't the other known ta'veren listed after Hawkwing? Or were they before? I can't remember right off the top of my head. But either way, you're right. They only talk about the ones they know to be major ta'veren.

 

I even have a theory about Pedron Niall being a very small ta'veren because in one of his POVs, he heard dice in his head like Mat does before he died, which can be an example of being ta'veren not always a good thing because it lead to Valda becoming commander and which lead to Galad becoming commander and eventually joining Perrin and so on. But have no basis other than him hearing dice, which as far as I know is a ta'veren only thing that not all ta'veren have.

 

But anyways, I very much believe Cadsuane was ta'veren at atleast some point during her many great deeds. I mean, kidnapping a king from his seat of power all on your own? With all his guards chasing you? We know she didn't know traveling then, she learned it from Sorelia. She had to have had some great freakin luck to do that.

[DaoineSidhe]

The other known Ta'Veren we know were all pre-Hawking, I believe... I'll not mention a certain three named individual, but the other known, Mabriam en Shereed, was either a ruler or Amyrlin (can't remember which) who was responsible for the founding of the Compact of Ten Nations, which was really first return to civilization post-Breaking. Then nothing til Artur Hawkwing, at least as far as we are told explicitly in the books, I think. I would find it interesting if we could get BS/Harriet or whoever to explain a bit more on the levels of ta'veren, and perhaps how common or uncommon the are. Some other possible ta'veren: Cadsuane, Rand's genetic father(can't remember his name, but he led the Aiel out during the Aiel War at an unheard of young age), many of the Great Captains? (Niall being one, past and present captains being other possibilities just because of how central they can be to events), some of the notable FDs (Raolin Darksbane, Yuiran Stonebow, Guare Amalasan). I don't know, depending on how rare the lesser ta'verens are, I think many of the "famous people" could be, especially those who show notable excellence in leadership, or playing a central role in great events.

[Edynol]

I should rename this topic unknown ta'veren. lol. That is very interesting, I never thought of that, aside from Niall. But then again, I think RJ or BS said there were no other ta'veren in this story other than the three, so I think I'm wrong about Niall and the dice being a ta'veren only thing. Maybe it's one of old things come again or a new thing like Min's viewings.

[Suttree]

Jordan wrote it? That is your answer. Look guys, no one is saying that LTT wasn't ta'veren and it has nothing to do with debating this particular topic. But unless it is made clear in canon or word of god than we can't say for sure. Thraschy had a very good point about LPD having just as strong a claim. Too many mistakes are made each day on these threads because people make assumptions like this that are then proven to be wrong. That is the very reason we don't accept WoT Wiki as a source.

[DaoineSidhe]

It isn't just that Jordan wrote it. These are all theories, argued from differing viewpoints. To not use basic literary analysis to infer the truth of certain things would be a mistake, and miss many of the clues that Jordan leaves us, IMO. When given the timing of the quote, and why it was put in there, what seems likely becomes a near certainty...

 

I like the change in topic, because while I like the Cadsuane ta'veren idea, I think there are lots of other possibilities. I hadn't caught the Niall dice in the head thing.. I'm thinking that maybe that is something that some of the Great Captains get? Almost like a spidey sense (Dicey Sense, anyone? lol). It is difficult to seperate the old things coming again from the completely new things (and how can they be completely new when this is a Wheel of Time, and everything comes again?).

 

Outside of Cadsuane, I think some of the likeliest past ta'verens are probably fasle Dragons, simply because they were catalysts for such change in their times.

[Suttree]

It isn't just that Jordan wrote it. These are all theories, argued from differing viewpoints. To not use basic literary analysis to infer the truth of certain things would be a mistake, and miss many of the clues that Jordan leaves us, IMO. When given the timing of the quote, and why it was put in there, what seems likely becomes a near certainty...

 

Daoine, I was a lit major at UCSB, please don't talk to me about "basic literary analysis". You are missing the point which is the claim was stated as fact earlier. All people are saying as we don't have proof of that and your quote most certainly doesn't conclusively "settle" anything.

 

As an aside if you are interested in fantasy with high literary quality that holds up outside of genre I would recommend R. Scott Bakker's "Prince of Nothing" and "Aspect Emperor" series. As much as RJ has a special spot in my heart as the first series I loved as a kid, Bakker's work stands out as one that isn't ruined in the slightest by having a lit degree.

[DaoineSidhe]

I understand that we don't have "proof" of this, but I also think the reason for that is because RJ saw no reason to give proof on this because he saw it as quite reasonably implied... Why would the part about LTT be in Loial's little speech about ta'veren otherwise? An author doesn't need to say "LTT was the most powerful ta'veren in the AoL" for us to know that he was. I truly believe that the idea of LTT being or not being ta'veren was a non-starter to RJ, in that he felt he didn't need to be any more explicit. His writing style is rife with it, and only when us fans, in our questioning of him, show him where we think some things are going, does he change course and provide more concrete proof if we have gone far afield.

 

So to me, it does seem a "fact" that LTT was ta'veren. All of the evidence points to him being so. I have yet to see any evidence of him not being ta'veren. When all of the evidence points solidly in one direction, then most likely that is the case.

 

Now to be fair, yes, we have no definitive proof where someone in story has said it definitively, but as stated above, I don't think we need that to know whether or not LTT was ta'veren.

 

As an aside to Edynol: I'm sorry that the LTT argument hijacked your thread a bit, when I made my original post I was hoping to end the debate, and to go on to talk of unknown ta'verens, not spur it further...

[Suttree]

I understand that we don't have "proof" of this, but I also think the reason for that is because RJ saw no reason to give proof on this because he saw it as quite reasonably implied... Why would the part about LTT be in Loial's little speech about ta'veren otherwise? An author doesn't need to say "LTT was the most powerful ta'veren in the AoL" for us to know that he was. I truly believe that the idea of LTT being or not being ta'veren was a non-starter to RJ, in that he felt he didn't need to be any more explicit. His writing style is rife with it, and only when us fans, in our questioning of him, show him where we think some things are going, does he change course and provide more concrete proof if we have gone far afield.

 

So to me, it does seem a "fact" that LTT was ta'veren. All of the evidence points to him being so. I have yet to see any evidence of him not being ta'veren. When all of the evidence points solidly in one direction, then most likely that is the case.

 

Now to be fair, yes, we have no definitive proof where someone in story has said it definitively, but as stated above, I don't think we need that to know whether or not LTT was ta'veren.

 

As an aside to Edynol: I'm sorry that the LTT argument hijacked your thread a bit, when I made my original post I was hoping to end the debate, and to go on to talk of unknown ta'verens, not spur it further...

 

Fair enough and obviously I qet where you are coming from, You just have to understand we need to apply the standard of proof evenly across the board. Back to the topic of Cads...

 

Interview: Nov 8th, 2010

TOM Signing Report - Sarayne (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Have there been any female ta'veren?

Maria Simons

 

None in the main series, but they can be. Some people think Egwene may be ta'veren, but I don't think she is. (A fan pointed out that someone would have seen her as ta'veren and Maria agreed that she is not.)

[DaoineSidhe]

I'm pretty sure Mabriam en Shereed was a female, and we know she was ta'veren. In addition to Cadsuane and fDs, I just now thought of another possiblity: King Laman. Talk about a big mover and shaker... His moves were terrible, yes, but bloody ashes, he certainly shifted the world!

[Edynol]

Well that can also be inturprated in another way. The "are" no female ta'veren in the "main" series. As in, during the time the actual story is taking place, there are none, and at this time, Cadsuane is indeed not a ta'veren. But they never said anything about any of the current females never being ta'veren in the past, before the main series takes place.

[Suttree]

Sigh. Look all we can do is infer from interviews and the text. There is not a hint that she ever was one and the interviews would seem to suggest none of the current females are or have been. The question in that interview was "have their been any female ta'veren". I think ta'veren are far more rare than the standard you are applying here.

[Thrasymachus]

I would tend to agree with Suttree that people who are ta'veren very strongly for a long enough time to be really useful or important are probably pretty rare. What puzzles me about the whole notion is that if ta'veren really is just other threads being woven around a single thread for a time, then people like Tam al'Thor, Cadsuane, and even Laman should have been ta'veren when they made their world-changing decisions and did their world-changing actions. That simple action, of being the "center" of the action, can't be the sole mechanic behind making a ta'veren.

 

I still prefer my interpretation of ta'veren-ness that sees it as a metaphor for what goes on in a novel. A ta'veren is a "main-character" for the Wheel, to the extent that the "story" the Wheel's trying to create requires main characters. Likewise, Heroes of the Horn are character archetypes, for when a certain kind of character is needed in a certain role for the story.

[DaoineSidhe]

I like this Thrasymachus! Of course, then by being at the center of certain events, then these other characters were somewhat ta'veren in the story that was being told at that time, no? (ie Laman is the main character of the Aiel War, and so is ta'veren for its duration).

 

Another way, somewhat similar to this, is if ta'veren are the threads that were needed to keep the Wheel correctly on the path to weave a Dragon at the end of the Age. We keep hearing about all of these forkings where if things had gone even slightly different, Rand wouldn't have been able to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount. As such, whenever the Wheel encounters one of those important forks, most likely sits a ta'veren.

 

examples:

 

Mabriam en Shereed: Without the founding of the Compact of Ten Nations, Manetheren does not have the fate it does, and so the "old blood" is no longer strong in the Two Rivers, providing the necessary place for Rand to be brought up in.

 

Artur Hawkwing: Without his conquering, and eventual fracturing, of Randland, Cairhien does not evolve, the Seanchan do not form to play they role they must.

 

 

King Laman (possibly?) or Gitara Sedai(I think): Without the cutting down of the Tree, or Gitara causing Andor's Sucession, no Aiel War, no baby on Dragonmount.

[Thrasymachus]

Nah, none of those people have to be "main characters" in the in the "story" of the Pattern. I would argue that Mabriam and Artur qualify as "main characters" because so much of what happens turns around them for such an extended period of time. They almost couldn't not be the "main characters" of that period of time. But Laman, Tam, Caddy, and in fact, most others, even if they were responsible for some world-changing event, were still secondary characters in the story. Could you tell a story with them playing the role of "main character?" Certainly, but that story wouldn't be the story of the Pattern. Given everything else that was going on at the same time these hypothetical ta'veren were doing their things, everything that had happened before, and everything that happened since and will happen in the future, what these guys were doing was at best a side-plot. An important side-plot, true, but not important enough to rise to the level of "main character/main story" status.

[Luckers]

We know that Lews Therin was a Hero, but we don't know whether he was ta'veren.

 

Actually we do. It's stated in the Eye of the World.

 

Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter

 

I believe there are other references besides--one by Graendal, I think. And also one by Siuan.

[Edynol]

(Edit: forgot to quote)

Sigh. Look all we can do is infer from interviews and the text. There is not a hint that she ever was one and the interviews would seem to suggest none of the current females are or have been. The question in that interview was "have their been any female ta'veren". I think ta'veren are far more rare than the standard you are applying here.

 

But again, you really don't have proof of that. Something as small as non-major character at one point in the past before the story being ta'veren may have slipped his mind cause it has no bearing on the as it is now. Need some really good proof. Like my thought about Niall, after remember RJs answer about there being no other ta'veren currently in the story, I dismissed my idea about Niall being a very minor ta'veren. So with that said, we're just talking about people who may have been ta'veren in the past. So unless you have a very good reason otherwise, don't talk about it like its fact. Remember RJ and BS can be very cryptic with their answers, even if it doesn't seem cryptic. The give very good Aes Sedai answers, in other words. To say that there aren't is true, and one might automatically assumes that includes never, but it doesn't necessarily mean it does. Now if they none of the other characters are or ever have been, then that would put all doubts aside. But until then, its open to debate. And we have a lot more to go on than your LTT argument.

 

Anyways, very good ideas Thrasy and Dao. That could also mean Tam, his wife, and Rand's bio-mother were ta'veren at some point. Just very minor ones at the time.

[Suttree]

We know that Lews Therin was a Hero, but we don't know whether he was ta'veren.

 

Actually we do. It's stated in the Eye of the World.

 

Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter

 

I believe there are other references besides--one by Graendal, I think. And also one by Siuan.

 

Good man Luckers, that's what I was hoping for...

 

But again, you really don't have proof of that. Something as small as non-major character at one point in the past before the story being ta'veren may have slipped his mind cause it has no bearing on the as it is now. Need some really good proof. Like my thought about Niall, after remember RJs answer about there being no other ta'veren currently in the story, I dismissed my idea about Niall being a very minor ta'veren. So with that said, we're just talking about people who may have been ta'veren in the past. So unless you have a very good reason otherwise, don't talk about it like its fact.

 

Talk about like it's fact? Are you joking...I have not been debating LTT but that very point in this entire thread. There is a huge difference between saying the majority of the evidence leans one direction and stating something as fact without proof.

[Edynol]

I said unless you have a very good reason, which we do and you didn't.

[Thrasymachus]

Thanks Luckers. As I said, it was always fairly likely LTT was a ta'veren, even given my interpretation of ta'veren-ness, it's hard to see how LTT wasn't the main character in the War of Power. Still, I'd like the reference for that quote, what page it was on, who said it, and the fuller context of that quote. I suspect that's the same quote as before, given by Loial, with the "I suppose" part left off to give it an air of authority. Better would be the quote from Graendal as well, if it exists. But for the life of me, excepting Loial's supposition, I can't recall anybody mentioning LTT as ta'veren who would know, and the Forsaken would certainly know.

 

As for standards of evidence to argue whether or not someone was ta'veren, it depends on your theory of ta'veren. If being ta'veren is just what RJ and the books describe, as standing at the center of the weaving, then there should be all kinds of ta'veren, from very weak to very strong ones, from those who are only ta'veren for a short while, perhaps mere moments, to those who are ta'veren for a significant portion of their lives. And they should be popping up all over the place as the Pattern is woven. On the other hand, if there's something more going on, something akin to my "main character of the Wheel" thing going on, then the standards of evidence are much more difficult to ascertain, and "real" ta'veren would be much more rare.

[Edynol]

I think it work a bit differently, actually. Just being in the center of something important doesn't make one ta'veren. I mean, someone has to be there in that spot. But someone who is often in the center of something big, or someone leading the way to huge catalyst that changes the entire world, that would suggest ta'veren. I mean, anyone with authority can rally people to go towar and conquer a nation or two, but someone who can make an enemy see things his way and join his cause just by sharing a few words that normally wouldn't convince anyone, like how Perrin convinced people to abandone their farms and stuff, that is what constituted a ta'veren I think.

[Suttree]

Thanks Luckers. As I said, it was always fairly likely LTT was a ta'veren, even given my interpretation of ta'veren-ness, it's hard to see how LTT wasn't the main character in the War of Power. Still, I'd like the reference for that quote, what page it was on, who said it, and the fuller context of that quote. I suspect that's the same quote as before, given by Loial, with the "I suppose" part left off to give it an air of authority. Better would be the quote from Graendal as well, if it exists. But for the life of me, excepting Loial's supposition, I can't recall anybody mentioning LTT as ta'veren who would know, and the Forsaken would certainly know.

 

Ahh I thought that was a different quote...just noticed it was the same. Would like to see another if it exists as well.