The Dark One, the mysterious motives of the mysterious entity

[Edynol]

Obviously a female poster....haha.

Or George Clooney.

[Silvaire]

I have edited my profile to make it clear that I am more George Clooney than female. Also, thank you for the kind words, Barid. If only I could remember any of theories... I had a few good ones.... 10 years ago. :)

[Edynol]

I knew it! Welcome George!

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have edited my profile to make it clear that I am more George Clooney than female. Also, thank you for the kind words, Barid. If only I could remember any of theories... I had a few good ones.... 10 years ago. :)

 

Haha, welcome George! I would say you could play Rahvin if there were any movie made. Put a bit of tan on and it would be a good match

 

I didn't mean there was anything wrong with your profile, my comment about being a female was a joke because of the Creator/Female DO/Male thing, wasn't really serious.

 

We certainly need new theories, it has been a while since ToM so it is a relatively stagnant period between books. If your others are anything like this one, it would be refreshingly different angle to look at things.

 

And yes, this post does pertain to the OP. I propose that Clooney is actually the DO, and his motives are destroying the world so nobody can compete against him for an Oscar.

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

I think he just wants all the peaches for himself.

 

And all the Saldean farmgirls.

BY GOD! your right!....that bastard...

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

However much i am LOVING all of these comedic comment (expecially the peaches, peaches should belong to all!) but here is a question i think will set off some good discussion. This is coming off of Silvaire's general theme comment:

 

At the end of the series will the DO be kept a more unknown force of power, neverunderstood? or will the DO be given more human qualities and given parameters for his motives and all the other things we have discussed?

Im curious as to how you all think Jordan/Sanderson will take this idea at the end, shed some light on the DO or keep him that strange and awesome power never to be questioned?

[Silvaire]

I have a hard time these days remembering the facts of the books, like I did when I was younger and used to play an RP MUD that had me in the thick of things day in and day out. I just got my fiance to start reading them--she is on book 4--so I try to leech off of her by asking her what is going on in the plot constantly to try to remember things without re-reading (even though I am a huge fan of the series, and very much grew up with them, I've never really been one to re-read books outright).

 

As Demandred is the only significant player in the plot that has remained off-scene, he is the reader's last great hope for preventing the Last Battle (which I believe has nothing actually do with martial fighting; the armies clashing at the end of the series are probably going to be just buying time for the real good/evil struggle a la LOTR) from looking like a Lightfest. Plus, I used to roleplay Mazrim Taim a lot and so I have a fascination with where this almost-Mazrim Taim is that is going to cause more damage than training an elite group of easily corruptible male channelers exposed to varying degrees of taint.

 

Sorry for off-topic.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Im curious as to how you all think Jordan/Sanderson will take this idea at the end, shed some light on the DO or keep him that strange and awesome power never to be questioned?

 

I think that more light will be shed on the DO, but I hope not everything is revealed. I think that perhaps the DO's motives and power will be revealed, but not the full extent of his nature, like how he came to be, "what" he is and stuff like that.

[Silvaire]

To answer your question, I would like to think that based on what many readers consider a baffling performance by the DO in defeating the forces of Light from Book 1 until now with the resources at its command, and the amount of viewpoints showing the Shadow POV, there will be some reveal at the end into the nature of the DO, what it hoped to achieve, and why, in at least some ways, it acted the way it did, and used the Forsaken in the way it did.

 

Otherwise the story would really devolve into a very significant case of "Good wins because evil is dumb." As I mentioned above, I do not see Shai'tan as a force. RJ introduced force-like entities of evil already and by doing that, and having them exist in the same world that Shai'tan exists in, that to me says that Shai'tan is something...more. Also, it laughs.

[Saluki]

Just re: the Forsaken and them stopping using balefire, even if the DO did order it (which I don't believe), but he certainly could have countermanded the Forsaken and forced them to do it.. Anyway, this does not necessarily mean he doesn't want to destroy the Pattern. He still needs his servants to help him escape the prison, thus he lies to them (so says Moridin) and promises grandeur and power. If he kept forcing them to use balefire, they would realise the world would certainly be destroyed, and I don't think any power would stop them from deserting the DO. So he realised that it was necessary, or else he would lose his followers.

 

The answer to whether or not the DO ordered the stop to balefire would say a lot about him, I think. But since the Shadow stopped using it, and the DO is supreme among them, I think it was his wish to do so. I agree that he needs his followers to help him escape the prison, but not that he intends to destroy the pattern after doing so. This is because of the Bore. Drilling through the Pattern to release the DO suggests that the Pattern itself is containing him in some way. Would he be released if this world's pattern was destroyed? Balefire is a threat to the Pattern, and it seems like a viable method of escape while achieving nothingness at the same time. Yet the DO pursues the seals on his prison instead.

 

Now. The greatest reason why I am not partial to the "nothingness" goal is because nothingness is less evil than existence. Within existence, one can experience intense pain, suffering, and despair. Even in our own world every year, almost a million people decide that nothingness would be better than this. And our world isn't too bad compared to what seems possible in Randland. I think the DO wants reality. He wants to create an unimaginable hell for life to suffer within. Nothingness would be a mercy from what is possible and the DO won't have any of that.

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

Just re: the Forsaken and them stopping using balefire, even if the DO did order it (which I don't believe), but he certainly could have countermanded the Forsaken and forced them to do it.. Anyway, this does not necessarily mean he doesn't want to destroy the Pattern. He still needs his servants to help him escape the prison, thus he lies to them (so says Moridin) and promises grandeur and power. If he kept forcing them to use balefire, they would realise the world would certainly be destroyed, and I don't think any power would stop them from deserting the DO. So he realised that it was necessary, or else he would lose his followers.

 

The answer to whether or not the DO ordered the stop to balefire would say a lot about him, I think. But since the Shadow stopped using it, and the DO is supreme among them, I think it was his wish to do so. I agree that he needs his followers to help him escape the prison, but not that he intends to destroy the pattern after doing so. This is because of the Bore. Drilling through the Pattern to release the DO suggests that the Pattern itself is containing him in some way. Would he be released if this world's pattern was destroyed? Balefire is a threat to the Pattern, and it seems like a viable method of escape while achieving nothingness at the same time. Yet the DO pursues the seals on his prison instead.

 

Now. The greatest reason why I am not partial to the "nothingness" goal is because nothingness is less evil than existence. Within existence, one can experience intense pain, suffering, and despair. Even in our own world every year, almost a million people decide that nothingness would be better than this. And our world isn't too bad compared to what seems possible in Randland. I think the DO wants reality. He wants to create an unimaginable hell for life to suffer within. Nothingness would be a mercy from what is possible and the DO won't have any of that.

 

 

wow, thats some great input. i agree with nothingness being less evil since all the forsaken constantly worry about an eternal suffering at the hands of the dark one (death is no escape from him). they dont fear being turned into nothing, that would be a blessing in Asmodean's case. if the DO worst punishment is worse than his overall plan for the world (what the dragon is trying to prevent) than i feel like that wouldnt make much sense.

As for Moridin constantly saying thats the dark ones wishes, that could just be the DO manipulating him just as much as the other forsaken. do any of you really think the DO cares about moridin? he would manipulate him as quickly as anyone else, i think thats just Moridin's logical outcome so the DO supports it.

Conclusion: nothingness would also take out any misery or pain, many in Randland would LOVE just being able to disapear like that.

[RandA lThor]

Just re: the Forsaken and them stopping using balefire, even if the DO did order it (which I don't believe), but he certainly could have countermanded the Forsaken and forced them to do it.. Anyway, this does not necessarily mean he doesn't want to destroy the Pattern. He still needs his servants to help him escape the prison, thus he lies to them (so says Moridin) and promises grandeur and power. If he kept forcing them to use balefire, they would realise the world would certainly be destroyed, and I don't think any power would stop them from deserting the DO. So he realised that it was necessary, or else he would lose his followers.

 

The answer to whether or not the DO ordered the stop to balefire would say a lot about him, I think. But since the Shadow stopped using it, and the DO is supreme among them, I think it was his wish to do so. I agree that he needs his followers to help him escape the prison, but not that he intends to destroy the pattern after doing so. This is because of the Bore. Drilling through the Pattern to release the DO suggests that the Pattern itself is containing him in some way. Would he be released if this world's pattern was destroyed? Balefire is a threat to the Pattern, and it seems like a viable method of escape while achieving nothingness at the same time. Yet the DO pursues the seals on his prison instead.

 

Now. The greatest reason why I am not partial to the "nothingness" goal is because nothingness is less evil than existence. Within existence, one can experience intense pain, suffering, and despair. Even in our own world every year, almost a million people decide that nothingness would be better than this. And our world isn't too bad compared to what seems possible in Randland. I think the DO wants reality. He wants to create an unimaginable hell for life to suffer within. Nothingness would be a mercy from what is possible and the DO won't have any of that.

 

 

wow, thats some great input. i agree with nothingness being less evil since all the forsaken constantly worry about an eternal suffering at the hands of the dark one (death is no escape from him). they dont fear being turned into nothing, that would be a blessing in Asmodean's case. if the DO worst punishment is worse than his overall plan for the world (what the dragon is trying to prevent) than i feel like that wouldnt make much sense.

As for Moridin constantly saying thats the dark ones wishes, that could just be the DO manipulating him just as much as the other forsaken. do any of you really think the DO cares about moridin? he would manipulate him as quickly as anyone else, i think thats just Moridin's logical outcome so the DO supports it.

Conclusion: nothingness would also take out any misery or pain, many in Randland would LOVE just being able to disapear like that.

 

I think that the DO would not actually turn on Moridin since he is is greates supporter and does it not for fame but for logic. I have a feeling that this appeals to the DO a lot and that's why he was made Nae'blis. I think that if the DO was to break out, Moridin would be like another Shaidar Haran as in that he would command everyone and would command the DO's forces. I think this would really work. As a flip side to the whole nothingness thing, you also lose all emotion, happiness, family, ove , and everything else that makes us human. To lose all that, some people would say is worse than being tortured or living in ahell world because then all of humanity is lost. even in a hell world, you would experience some happiness, seeing your family, millisceond breaks. I think that the whole nothingness idea would work for the DO. However, I think that he will create nothing else, than create his own reality and pattern. I don't remember exactly where this is from the book, but I remember someone saying that the Do wants to remake the pattern in his own image. I think this would involve him destroying everything and then recreating it so there would be no memory in anyone's mind of what used to be and the whole world would just be the DO's, no creator, no "Light", and nothing else.

 

Any ways, just my thoughts. Sorry if nothing makes sense.:)

[Saluki]

Yeah, I remember that part now about the DO remaking the pattern in his image. Destroying what the Creator made first would seem like the right thing to do then. I don't know, and that's a good thing. It's nice how there is so much where RAFO is the only way to know.

[RandA lThor]

I'm also really interested in whether or not BS is going to elaborate on whether or not the DO is a person or a symbol or a god. However, I think that I can elaborate on there being multiple DOs for each reality. When Rand is going through the experience of seeing the outcomes of all the realities, the DO speaks to him in each one saying that he has one again. This means that the DO in all of these are the same. It also means (I think) that if this DO wins, then this reality will be lost, but others will survive. However, this brings up the possibility of the DO's forces going across realities via Portal Stones and destroying everything anyways. Just my thoughts again.

[Barid Bel Medar]

All good points. I suppose it comes down to opinion on what the DO embodies.

 

Is the DO evil? If so, then I would have to agree with you about "nothingness" being a lesser evil. The DO would certainly want to torture things

 

The point about the DO just telling Moridin what he want's to hear is also very good, I hadn't thought of it that way, as Moridin is the most trusted Forsaken and seems to have hit it off with the DO. But definitely something the DO would do.

 

I lean more towards the DO not being evil, only that is the perception the WoT people hold, because the DO is pretty much trying to destroy them, if someone were trying to kill you for no apparent reason, you would think they are evil.

 

I see the DO more as Chaos and Destruction, the balance to the Creator, "Creation" and "Order" (belief and order give strength). Now I definitely think that it is more complex than that , but I do believe it is something along these lines. Thus, it would make more sense to create "nothingness", as that is basically his nature. It does present a lot of difficulties that I cannot answer, so it is a matter of opinion on the subject until we find out more.

 

With regards to the Pattern and the Prison, I have always mantained that this is only how the people of the pattern perceive things, not the actual truth.

 

Since the Pattern is essentially existence itself to the people, with only the Creator and the DO outside of it, they would naturally believe that the DO is being "Locked up".

 

But it does not fit if we think on a broader scale. Both the Creator and Dark One exist outside the pattern. The Creator "bound the DO in his prison" so he cannot reach into the pattern.

 

But the DO still exists outside of said pattern anyway. It makes more sense that the Creator sealed the Pattern away, not the DO. Meaning the Creator sealed off the pattern with a "wall" so that the DO couldn't get inside.

 

I see it akin to an Egg, the DO is someone wanting to eat an egg, they haven't eaten in ages, and are hungry for the juicy yolk etc... (the Pattern, in this case.) So they are going to do pretty much anything to eat that egg, who cares about the baby chicken inside it.

 

But the Creator wants this "baby chicken" to live and grow (the only difference is that it doesn't eventually break free of the egg.) so he makes a cuendillar-like (not saying it IS cuendillar, just that it is the most powerful thing we know of) shell around it to stop the DO from "cracking the egg".

 

Indeed, when Rand sees the bore being drilled through his ancestors, he thinks it looks like an egg being cracked. Obviously this is not exactly the same thing as I am talking about, but the similarities hint at the connection.

[DaoineSidhe]

I think the difference between the Creator and the Dark One is not a Good Vs. Evil argument, but an Order Vs. Chaos one.

 

First the Creator: (Supreme Embodiment of Order)

 

The entire nature of the world the Creator made is one which is based on sets of rules, and then like a machine, wound up and set to run, and continue to run and repeat itself self-sufficiently. Talk about an Ordered world. The Creator doesn't care so much about the Good or Evil that people are acting upon in the world, he just wants to make sure his little machine continues to run. As such, when something is happening that might cause it to break, he's even created a mechanism of the world to introduce forces to correct and fix the problem, without the Creator having to do anything. It also explains why he hasn't taken any direct involvement. HE CAN'T. He is the embodiment of Order. He can't break the rules, that would be destroying what He is.

 

Now the Dark One: (Supreme Embodiment of Chaos)

 

The Dark One doesn't care about how evil people are. What he cares about is Chaos. He very existence is anathema to the Pattern and the Wheel of Time world that the Creator has made. We are told many times that as the Dark One's Prison is weakening so too is the very existence of the Pattern. He existence, his very nature of Chaos, unravels the highly Ordered world of the Wheel of Time. I'm not sure whether or not he really cares one way or the other about the destruction of the Creator's world, it is just a by-product of his existence. That is why he doesn't really care how effective his followers are in accomplishing their goals of world dominion. They are a powerful enough force that they can't be easily defeated, and by fighting amongst themselves, they are still adding to the chaos of the Pattern, which is the true goal of the Dark One. I am unsure if the Dark One wants to destroy this world to create a Chaotic World, or if he just desires Chaos, and its complete anti-ness to the Creator's Wheel of Time world causes it to be destroyed.

 

 

Anyways, just my take on it. It allows us the reader to be fairly comfortable with who and what the Creator and Dark One are, as for most of the series Order and Chaos equate fairly well and easily to Good and Evil. But it allows for a way to deal with the BIG BAD GUY of an Epic series in a vastly different way, because if the Dark One isn't truly EVIL, but just CHAOS, well, who knows?

[FarShainMael]

This may interest you, DS:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

 

Chaos... refers to the formless or void state preceding the creation of the universe or cosmos in the Greek creation myths, more specifically the initial "gap" created by the original separation of heaven and earth.

 

The motif of chaoskampf (German for "struggle against chaos") is ubiquitous in such myths, depicting a battle of a culture hero deity with a chaos monster, often in the shape of a serpent or dragon {er..}. The same term has also been extended to parallel concepts in the religions of the Ancient Near East.

[bigdoug1971]

I always kind of looked at it like he was imprisoned by the pattern. When Lanfear and that other dude in the Age of Legends were doing their research, they found a "thin spot" in the pattern they were trying to tap into that would allow everyone use of a "greater power". And what was waiting under the "thin spot"? The Dark One of course. I believe they basically ripped a hole in the pattern that allowed him to touch the world and that's what Lews Therin sealed up with a "patch". If the Dark one can break free, he can remake time in his own image filled with chaos and destruction. If the pattern were created by the Dark One, perhaps the Creator would be imprisoned on the other side of the pattern with "lightfriends" trying to help him escape so he can remake it back to his image.

I don't know if I'm right about this or not, but it makes sense to me. The Creator and Dark One are exact opposites. I assume they have the same strength and power. The Creator is good. The Dark One is bad. Darkfriends see the chaos created by the Dark One as their opportunity to thrive in a world more to their liking. Why else would anybody want to be a Darkfriend? If you are a bad person, and there was no law or order in the world, you would believe your life would be better in a world built more to your ways and beliefs. Instead of buying and trading to make an honest living inside of a law abiding society, you can take what you want and get away with it. Survival of the fittest if you will........ If you want to live in a society with laws, protection, and punishment for the wicked and evil people around you, then you wouldn't want to be a darkfriend. I see a lot of people think that someone becomes a darkfriend because they are promised power. In reality, I guess if you were an evil person, or a person who liked chaos, you would become empowered if there was no law or order in the world. And the Forsaken, being powerful channelers, would rule with an iron fist of course just like the White Tower basically rules now.

 

And before anyone points out what Herod Fel(?) told Rand about the Dark one's prison think about this.....The pattern covers the world or planet there in Randland. It's often described and "warp and woof" and sometimes the "threads in a loom". Those threads would wrap around the world if logic has anything at all to say about it. Sure they would seem straight if you were looking at them from a long distance away, just as a highway appears flat and straight as it disappears out of sight in our world. But we all know the planet is round and curves here. Just as it does there. It called the "Wheel of Time" and wheels are round.

 

If the Dark One can free himself then he can swap places with the Creator. Evil and chaos can rule all. I think if he was freed that he would probably take no part in everyday life aside from taking pleasure in watching what he created unfold before his eyes. Just as the Creator does now.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the motives and mystery of the Dark One. Like I said, I'm probably wrong or didn't describe what I'm saying to the point that anyone thinks I'm touched by the taint to some extent anyway. But it felt good to get that out. Thanks for reading

Blow me away now!!

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

How dare you voice your opinion!!!! I mean really?.....hahah naaaaa good input man, you have a very goOd understanding of the series. I like the input, primarily on the explanation of the patterns parameters. I not exactly are of the creator is as much of prominent force as you described. But this coupled with dioane's discussion of the forces of chaos and Order give a great background for other Theories on the DO.

 

 

New question: what are all of you expecting when the seals are destroyed? If we go with a more humanly perspective on the DO, then will something physical pour out of Shayol ghul? Or will nothing actually visible occur? Let's hear everyone's picture of the epic even we are all eagerly waiting...the Last Battle and the release of the Dark One!!!!

[Edynol]

I think Bela will fart.

[RandA lThor]

I think that there will be achange in the weather as the DO's control will go greater and he can override what the Bowl of Winds did. I also envision a bunch of people screaming at rand or whoever breaks the seals. I have a feeling that there will be some physical aspect such as armies appearing, forsaken coming, because they might have just waiting until that happens. Also, since he now a lot more control, I envision a lot more bubbles and strange things happening, but this time with complete malicious intent by the DO (if it wasn't before).

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think there will be any physical Dark One. Remember that the bore originally did not allow the DO full access to the world. The seals sealed that bore, so when they are broken, the DO will not necessarily be fully free. IT could be that the DO has worn down the barriers over time so that only the seals are holding him back, but it is unsure.

 

I doubt that the DO will ever be fully free, I don't think anything could stop him if he were. But he will be much more able to act and influence the world.

 

I see the Bubbles of Evil becoming more frequent, consistent and effective. In Tear when basically a whole street/area turns to dust, Rand says "he would do this to the whole world." (paraphrased)

 

That is what I see happening, the degradation of everything.

[Vardar]

I don't think there will be any physical Dark One. Remember that the bore originally did not allow the DO full access to the world. The seals sealed that bore, so when they are broken, the DO will not necessarily be fully free. IT could be that the DO has worn down the barriers over time so that only the seals are holding him back, but it is unsure.

 

I doubt that the DO will ever be fully free, I don't think anything could stop him if he were. But he will be much more able to act and influence the world.

 

I see the Bubbles of Evil becoming more frequent, consistent and effective. In Tear when basically a whole street/area turns to dust, Rand says "he would do this to the whole world." (paraphrased)

 

That is what I see happening, the degradation of everything.

 

Exactly, In fact, they said this in the books. I'm still unsure why all the characters think once the seals break, ZOMG CHAOS EVERYWHERE!!!!!

 

They're really not very bright. The hole in the pattern is just that, a hole. It's a place in the pattern where pure chaos can escape, the more chaos that escapes, the larger the hole becomes, because it's breaking down the order that is the pattern. Even with the hole, the dark one needs time to break down the order that is the pattern. If it was so easy that he could do it instantly, the pattern couldn't hold him. The pattern (in my mind) is order, forged out of the chaos that is existence, which is why is holds the Dark One and he can't break through without assistance (Lanfear). A good question is did she know what she was doing? And how did she survive anyway...

[Barid Bel Medar]

A good question is did she know what she was doing? And how did she survive anyway...

 

 

 

Depends what you mean by that. She knew she was drilling a hole to tap into a new, mysterious power (like oil mining i suppose). But she did not have any idea it was actually the DO/TP.

 

How she survived? I don't have tSR with me, so I do not have the scene where Rand sees the bore drilled, but I would assume she would have just Gatewayed it outta there, or put a shield around herself similar to the one Rand does when Aginor (Dashiva) and the others attack him in PoD. No idea if it is explained, but seems there is a whole list of tricks she could have used.

[TristanWebb]

All you see is the dome spurting gouts of fire and one piece falling off it and tumbling to the ground. The bore could of been drilled hours before (unlikely since no one was panicking but theoretically possible) and the black fire just built up slowly before it filled the whole thing, there is nothing from the inside to know what happened.