The Dark One, the mysterious motives of the mysterious entity

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

I say entity because thats all i can describe him (it?) as. so i started this discusion (or i may just be repeating a conversations already held, please forgive me if i did) because im curious to see what everyone thinks about the DO's true intentions. not the forsaken, not the any of his forces, but HIM. No true motives, aside from the total destruction in the end, are conversed in the book. the DO is discussed in the series as a mysterious god is, to complex for anyone to understand even his disciples (the forsaken).

 

SO i say we discuss the unkown!

Why does he play the forsaken against each other?

maybe merely for his love of chaos and greed, but then that would delay his end goals due to them squabling like children. Or maybe he is rooting out the weak ones, but then why revive them if thats his goal?

By this discussion i hope to shed some light on the Dark One's persona, his thought process (if it can be called that) throughout the series and what he really wishes at the end....i feel like Robert Jordan kept him cloaked in a shroud of awe and mystery to suprise us with his true motives. total destruction seems so....base....or maybe thats because he truly is a base energy of destruction?

 

.....now....GO! discuss WoT philosophy!

[Suttree]

Well as the dark counterpart to the Creator you would assume destruction would be up there on his list of priorities. Taking into account his actions however it obviously is a good deal more complicated than that.

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

 

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

hmmm that is a good point, it explains his end goal for sure. the Pattern is balence (i.e. Ying yang) destruction for destruction's sake would make sense in an entity that is the embodiment of destructive forces and greed. Just the way his orders are relayed through Moridin speak of a secret motive, why bring Rand to Shayol ghul if only to destroy everything? bringing him to shayol ghul isnt to destroy him but something else....turn him to the DO so the destruction is that much sweeter?

 

maybe....

[Cybertrolloc]

I doubt we can figure everything out, just saying that first. The current characters don't have the wherewithal to explore their reality much (who knows with TaR). AoL they did, but not much survived (except the statue that'll be parked in Elayne's sitting room until the end of time and what's in Rand's and the Forsakens' heads).

 

My general impressions are the DO is godlike in power, and him getting loose means the end of reality. Doubt remaking reality like the Forsaken sans Moridin think is in the cards. Not sure on what specifically his prison is or how he can escape it, lots of things are plausible, and not sure exactly how much the End of an Age or the Dragon or Light's Champion (Rand is both) play into all that. (I certainly see lots of things hinting that it's the D or CoL that can let the Dark One free, everything else is just for fun.)

 

And...yah, not going to write a thesis on this (there's tons to cover just about the few things I've brought up let alone the other stuff you have to bring into it to be thorough, and it'll depend on author Q&A which I hate digging through).

[Saluki]

It doesn't seem like the DO's end goal is total destruction that leaves emptiness. Remember that during the War of Power even the Shadow's forces stopped using balefire for the amount of destruction it was causing. Maybe he just wants control of the physical and natural laws of the world so as to create his own visions.

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

Saluki that is a great point, if in fact that order came down from the DO. which is most likely but also it could have been the forsaken or other dreadlords because if there is not reality then what are they trying to rule? i feel like he the DO has a goal for Rand and maybe moridin, there HAS to be a reason to bring Rand to Shayol Ghul aside from just killing him, that wouldnt make sense.

Any theories?

 

And yes cybertrolloc, this is truly a pointless conversation but hey half of the theories out there are pointless besides discussing the book series we all love! this is all just theory and philosophy to entertain the bored WoT lover who wishes to pass some time. i doubt anything fo any real inportance will be revealed but hey, the fun is in the discussion from my point of view.

[Vardar]

It doesn't seem like the DO's end goal is total destruction that leaves emptiness. Remember that during the War of Power even the Shadow's forces stopped using balefire for the amount of destruction it was causing. Maybe he just wants control of the physical and natural laws of the world so as to create his own visions.

 

I never took that statement to mean that Shadow stopped using Balefire because the DO told them too, I took it as they feared what would happen. Moridin already said what the DO wants, nothingness. (I can't remember the exact quote, but didn't he say the other forsaken were wrong, there will be nothing to rule over because the DO wanted the blessed peace of oblivion?)

 

The DO is Chaos. Plain and simple. He sets the forsaken against one another, because he can cause more chaos while making them cause chaos. You can't think of it in your terms, of what makes sense and what doesn't. Just think of a completely insane person. Ok, now imagine that person is not only insane, but the most powerful person on earth. And he's immortal. So why wouldn't he start wars, then go to the front lines to get shot? Why not, it's MOAR CHAOS!!!!!

 

And he brings his minions back to... You guessed it, CAUSE MORE CHAOS!! If the Dark One could eat Chaos frosted Chaos flakes, smothered in Chaos, in his Chaos PJs, while watching his favorite Chaos TV show, on the Chaos network everyday, he would.

 

 

CHAOS!

[Guest Duraiden]

It's possible that DO wants to keep the world, or that it is connected to the pattern. I don't think the DO is really as powerful as the Creator since it can't reach back in time to retrieve people burned by Balefire, and Rand seems to think that if the DO got out it would only result in his World being destoryed and would be of little consequence to the creator who has created many other worlds. I think that maybe the DO is sort of like a by product of creating a world, and thus every world created by the Creator has it's own specific "Dark One".

[Saluki]

i feel like he the DO has a goal for Rand and maybe moridin, there HAS to be a reason to bring Rand to Shayol Ghul aside from just killing him, that wouldnt make sense.

Any theories?

 

I think that for most of the story, the Dark One has wanted Rand turned to the Shadow. There were many opportunities to kill him but he wants him turned, perhaps for it being a greater victory against the Creator than a simple death. Ever since the possibility was revealed in The Dragon Reborn, I have always wanted to see a character turned to the shadow by a circle and thirteen Myrddraal. Maybe something like that would occur at Shayol Ghul.

[Vardar]

It's possible that DO wants to keep the world, or that it is connected to the pattern. I don't think the DO is really as powerful as the Creator since it can't reach back in time to retrieve people burned by Balefire, and Rand seems to think that if the DO got out it would only result in his World being destoryed and would be of little consequence to the creator who has created many other worlds. I think that maybe the DO is sort of like a by product of creating a world, and thus every world created by the Creator has it's own specific "Dark One".

 

But if the DO got out in this world, he gets out in every world. The DO can't undo balefire, but who says the creator can? I think The DO and Creator are equal in power, but the creator seems more powerful because Chaos turns on itself.

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

It doesn't seem like the DO's end goal is total destruction that leaves emptiness. Remember that during the War of Power even the Shadow's forces stopped using balefire for the amount of destruction it was causing. Maybe he just wants control of the physical and natural laws of the world so as to create his own visions.

 

I never took that statement to mean that Shadow stopped using Balefire because the DO told them too, I took it as they feared what would happen. Moridin already said what the DO wants, nothingness. (I can't remember the exact quote, but didn't he say the other forsaken were wrong, there will be nothing to rule over because the DO wanted the blessed peace of oblivion?)

 

The DO is Chaos. Plain and simple. He sets the forsaken against one another, because he can cause more chaos while making them cause chaos. You can't think of it in your terms, of what makes sense and what doesn't. Just think of a completely insane person. Ok, now imagine that person is not only insane, but the most powerful person on earth. And he's immortal. So why wouldn't he start wars, then go to the front lines to get shot? Why not, it's MOAR CHAOS!!!!!

 

And he brings his minions back to... You guessed it, CAUSE MORE CHAOS!! If the Dark One could eat Chaos frosted Chaos flakes, smothered in Chaos, in his Chaos PJs, while watching his favorite Chaos TV show, on the Chaos network everyday, he would.

 

 

CHAOS!

 

hahaha i love your input. yeah that has been my general idea of the DO too, Chaos for chaos sake. being chaos given form, thats all he would do. like isaid before, its not like i really expect to find some hidden motive, the idea that he is doing all this just to create more Chaos (and turn rand just to make that victory that much more sweat) makes the most sense. im just hoping to put some sort of personality or understanding to the Dark One. i hope Jordan will suprise us like he always has in the Last Battle. a simple Good=life for all vs Bad=death of everything seems not very....jordan haha but it could be that simple, simplicity has its own beauty.

[Cybertrolloc]

Chaos v. Order is an important theme of the series and is probably important to the end (ToM Rand to Ny, Fel, Forsaken PoV even though they don't seem to understand why). Chaos is what the DO wants and possibly needs to escape, but still wonder whether there's another opportunity lurking for him besides nudge Rand into destroying the world (Dragonmount).

 

I.e. I don't think it's just chaos for chaos' sake, especially since RJ decribes the DO as a real control freak and micro-manager (Question of the Week).

[IAlsoEnjoyTheSeries]

Chaos v. Order is an important theme of the series and is probably important to the end (ToM Rand to Ny, Fel, Forsaken PoV even though they don't seem to understand why). Chaos is what the DO wants and possibly needs to escape, but still wonder whether there's another opportunity lurking for him besides nudge Rand into destroying the world (Dragonmount).

 

I.e. I don't think it's just chaos for chaos' sake, especially since RJ decribes the DO as a real control freak and micro-manager (Question of the Week).

That is a great point, the DO seems to be planning things out too much. If it was just to ensue as much chaos as possible he would be just creating as much damage as possible everywhere. Not planning out something more complicated than a stones game between Rodel and Gareth. It all seems to be leadIng to something, chaos being the means to an end. Just like his trying to get rand to destroy the world seems to be part of a plan, but it might just be satisfying for the DO to see his enemy destroy the world. But it all seems much to convenient....ugh a vicious circle, damn you philosophy!

[Edynol]

I think he just wants all the peaches for himself.

 

And all the Saldean farmgirls.

[Suttree]

Along the creation/destruction lines I think BS hammered us pretty hard over the head in TGS with how close Rand was to dong the DO's bidding and giving him the ultimate victory. It was the whole allow your enemy to think he is in control while he dances to your tune angle from Sha'ra.

 

They called the black half [of the disc] the Dragon’s Fang. To the people, it symbolized evil. Destruction.

But Rand was necessary destruction. Why had the Pattern pushed him so hard if he didn’t need to destroy? Originally, he had tried to avoid killing—but there had been little chance of that working. Then he’d made himself avoid killing women. That had proven impossible.

He was destruction. He just had to accept that. Someone had to be hard enough to do what was necessary, didn’t they?

[Durinax]

I think the DO wants things to become interesting again. He has watched essentially the same thing play out countless times. Wouldn't you want to change things around and tinker with it?

[Edynol]

I think the DO wants things to become interesting again. He has watched essentially the same thing play out countless times. Wouldn't you want to change things around and tinker with it?

He wants to enforce the Way of Leaf on everyone! Well hell, he's not such a bad guy. Let him go!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just re: the Forsaken and them stopping using balefire, even if the DO did order it (which I don't believe), but he certainly could have countermanded the Forsaken and forced them to do it.. Anyway, this does not necessarily mean he doesn't want to destroy the Pattern. He still needs his servants to help him escape the prison, thus he lies to them (so says Moridin) and promises grandeur and power. If he kept forcing them to use balefire, they would realise the world would certainly be destroyed, and I don't think any power would stop them from deserting the DO. So he realised that it was necessary, or else he would lose his followers.

 

As to what the goals of the DO actually are, I agree, they are un-knowable. I wouldn't necessarily count out total destruction of the Pattern. As the DO sees it, the Pattern is not the sole source of life, there are things that exist outside of the Pattern. (Himself and the Creator for starters, and possibly there are other Patterns made by the DO.) I would say he does want "nothingness" for this pattern. At least in the people who live in it think. Nothingness to them would be the destruction of Randland, etc.. But would that also destroy Parallel Worlds, for example?

[Silvaire]

I've always thought that by the end of the series that there would certainly be some kind of "big reveal" regarding the nature of Shai'tan, the Creator, and creation. That said, I've always enjoyed the notion of applying the gender theme that is so strong throughout the series to Shai'tan and the Creator. Basically, the whole series boils down to a lover's quarrel between a male Shai'tan and a female Creator. :) I don't know who started it, and how it got so out of hand, but here we are.

 

The Dragon's destiny at the end of the series is to become the ultimate marriage counselor.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I've always thought that by the end of the series that there would certainly be some kind of "big reveal" regarding the nature of Shai'tan, the Creator, and creation. That said, I've always enjoyed the notion of applying the gender theme that is so strong throughout the series to Shai'tan and the Creator. Basically, the whole series boils down to a lover's quarrel between a male Shai'tan and a female Creator. :) I don't know who started it, and how it got so out of hand, but here we are.

 

The Dragon's destiny at the end of the series is to become the ultimate marriage counselor.

 

Obviously a female poster....haha.

[Silvaire]

Nope, I'm male. A strong theme in this series is gender identity, and the consequences of cooperation among genders or lack of cooperation. I've always assumed that since we know next to nothing about the nature of either of the 2 entities at the top of the food chain, that there is some significance to the pairing other than Good vs Evil because one thing we do know is that Shai'tan has somewhat more complicated goals than your typical supreme evil archetype in other stories.

 

All Shai'tan wants is some love...don't deny it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, it certainly is interesting, you would have to go into more detail before I could say one way or another.

 

Generally, I would say no, the DO is not comparable to humans, it is such an alien force, gender cannot even be contemplated, I don't think.

 

I believe you are right in that there is more complicated goals involved, but lovers quarrel? I didn't know WoT was a comedy hahaha.

 

I would definitely like to see the theory expanded, as it does have potential if you can explain it properly, at the moment though, it seems rather silly (no offence intended to you, just the thought of the DO deciding to break the Creators favourite toy because they dumped him seems hilarious)

 

Shai'tan wanting love? Well... I wouldn't be game to volunteer for the job

 

Edit: Actually, this theory cannot be true.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

 

 

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up

 

RJ refers to both the DO and the Creator as a male. I still believe gender doesn't apply, and "he" is just an easy way to describe it as saying "it" all the time would be tedious. IN any case, both entities are given a masculine title, so even if gender does apply to them, they are both male.

 

Now, that does not rule out the possibility of a lover's quarrel, homosexuality is a valid theme. But it would mean that the gender identity would not be a theme here.

[Silvaire]

I guess I wasn't clear. I am actually kidding in the sense that I don't think the grand reveal is going to be: "OK, they are having a lover's quarrel." However, I do think it is possible the male-female relationship can play a role in explaining the nature of DO and Creator.

 

In reference to your view that DO is beyond gender, I can definitely see where you are coming from, as that is the same exact belief I have about our real world creator, and most other fictional depictions of supreme beings. The reason why I don't share that with WOT is as I mentioned this non-subtle theme of RJ about men and women working together or fighting each other.

 

But yeah, my position was supposed to be light-hearted and comedic but having a grain of support for general themes. I think it is hard to continue to depict Shai'tan as a "force" of some kind due to how humanized it already is in terms of its goals and abstract planning, and introducing other-evil factions like Padan and Machin Shin. It is still certainly possible that the series will conclude with Shai'tan being this unknowable force of evil, chaos, and/or destruction, but I think the scales have been tipping slowly in favor of something...else.

[Silvaire]

Ah, good find. I agree with you then on all points, and am saddened by the diminished probability of the Creator and Shai'tan engaging in couples counseling.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Haha, I am a bit disappointed that the theory could not be fleshed out. IT would have been (all the kidding aside) an interesting theory, and it would fit in with the whole gender theme.

 

I don't enjoy debunking theories, I promise, its just that I found it when looking for more info about the DO and Creator for the purposes of the thread.

 

And welcome to the forums! Nice theory to start off with, even if it was wrong, keep them coming!