Tear vs Illian

[Alric]

Maybe the fiercest rivals in Randland. Which side would you choose and why? Do you like one city or culture more than the other? Or is one clearly superior when you look at their history? Will you always side with Siuan and Juilin? Or is Bayle Domon your guy? Was Tam right in joining Illian's army?

[TheLagomorph]

It is an interesting question, but I have no special feeling for either to be honest. Juilin and Domon are both unfriendly and rather uninteresting (sure they are badass, but everyone is). Their respective cultures are not seem to be very distinctive in my mind, but that is just me. Based on Tear being the first home-base for Rand I favour them, but no good reasons otherwise.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I voted Illian, but I realized immediately after I did is because I was sort of pitting it against pre-Rand Tear. The Tear where AS were barely tolerated, channeling is illegal, and nobles can run roughshod over commoners. Admittedly, many of these issues have been addressed with Rand's arrival and reform policies. Plus, I do like Darlin.

 

But I also like the Illianer accent, and they have Easing the Badger, so they get my vote.

[bsmnt23]

I'm with Tear on this one. But let's compare the two. I'm looking at this in the time in between the Aiel Invasion and when TDR when the Aiel and Rand took the stone. Rand changed everything so much that he like unto a rennisance in and of himself. Tear and Illian are so equal on a flat playing field that they have been able to fight many unconclusive wars of the years. The border between them has fluctuated over time, but has remained fairly similar since the establishment of the kingdoms after the fall of Hawkwing's empire. Tear favors light cavelry but has a strong army of mostly spearmen. Illian looks like it leans more towards foot, but (and dont try to explaine thie to a Lord) any decent spear formation is a match for a cavelry charge. I'll look at it like somehow an enemy army has a potential to get to and have the capibility to take the the capitol of either nation. There may be factors I'm not considereing such as how well the common soldiers are armed and trained and how willing they are to fight for thier nation, but as we have no way of knowing these things, I'm willing to let them be uncounted variables.

 

Tear: Oldest and historicaly strongest human fortification serves as the nation's power base; take the Stone and the nation follows. The Stone itself can be kept stocked indefinatly by dedicated docks and with internal fresh water suplies. The walls themselves not only are harder than standard construction because they are forged with the Power into a single stone, but are also designed with redundant kill-zones and back up defensive positions, as well as internal defences. The approches to the city make it impossible to suprise the defenders of Tear; to the north and west are open grasslands and to the south is the Fingers of the Dragon. The channels through the Fingers of the Dragon make it dificult, but not impossible to land a fleet with troops near the city, but they would lose the advantage of the ships to transport a lage amount of men and equipment over large distances quickly to the slow progress nessessitated through the shallow and winding river delta to Tear. (Despite the cannon, Tear has to have fallen at least once in the history of Randland, as Hawkwing held the stone at some point. How he took the fortress or if it was simply surrendered to him makes me very curious)

 

Illian: Similar to Venice in that it has a natural defense arround the city making it impossible to beseige with an army. The port is vast, but vulnerable. No one could hope to seige the city without a Navy, because the Port could keep the city running forever. While neither Tear nor Illian are particularly well-known for their navies, it is impossible that they both do not have one. As it is far easier to engage in a Navel battle in the huge harbor in Illian than the cramped delta of the Fingers, the defensive edge goes to Tear, as well. Any navel force could easily blocade it and starve the city. Lack of comunications mean any comunications between the city and any forces outside to harry the beseiging forces would be impossible.

 

In pre-Rand Randland, it is a basic pre-industrial Europe tech base which was a time dominated by seige warfare set piece battles. This means that whichever power base can best be neutralised first will lose, but in a siege the best offence is a killer defense. Tear is best able to bunker down and survive a seige as well as counter attack any supply lines established by a beseiging enemy with their famous light cavelry.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Illianer beards > Tairen beards

[Alric]

Lurk: Great and insightful post, that's some very interesting details, lots of them I had completely missed. Do you have a military background?

[Thrasymachus]

From a military perspective, Tear is superior, and in an all-out war of absolute destruction, where nobody else can come help Tear should win. But I voted for Illian because it is a far more democratic and tolerant culture than the Tairen. Illian has also apparently also had better relations with the rest of Randland than Tear, who seems to like to terrorize everybody within reach. Tam joined the Illianer army, after all, which would indicate to me that Illian's cause would be more sympathetic to it's allies than Tear's. So in a real, no-holds-barred war between pre-Rand Illian and Tear where allies are allowed to help, Tear would lose because of Illians greater diplomatic ties, those nations that didn't aid Illian directly would probably just sit it out and try to profit off both sides.

 

That isn't to say that the Stone of Tear would fall, but they'd lose control of practically everything else, and the nobles who were prosecuting the war would likely surrender long before it got that far.

[mandersen]

Illian. Tear's nobles are way too full of themselves. Plus illian accent is fun. it's either somewhat Scottish or piratish, either way it's pretty cool.

[andrewks]

I swear on me own mother that I do be supporting Illian.

[bsmnt23]

Lurk: Great and insightful post, that's some very interesting details, lots of them I had completely missed. Do you have a military background?

 

I do, actualy. I was trained as an MI Analyst for the US Army and did a couple of tours in Iraq. The thing about the MI analyst is that we get a lot of the training a medieval General would need; we need to be able to assess terrain for troop movement and logistics, as well as troop capibility of both sides, among other things. WOT Wiki was a big help for the historical research of Tear and Illian. Also, it probably helps that I've spent a few hours thinking about this very question myself. I was really interested what some of the other WOT fans had to say on the topic, too.