common complaints

[Cybertrolloc]

Jonn, it would be easier if we could see the books as you rewrote them ;) So Asmodean isn't someone who survived the War of Power, stood toe to toe with Rand, etc...?

 

Cybertrolloc' date=' which questions did I not answer? I thought I did, but perhaps I forgot or didn't see what you were aiming at.[/quote']

I've never found the reasons you give for the necessity of a planned Graendal hit convincing. On the whole it's a plausible explanation, but I don't find it compelling. For example, now it's impossible for someone on the other side of the door to know someone is coming before Asmo steps through? I want to see your rewrite of the series now too ;)

[Graendals favourite]

We're really getting down to business now.

 

So what you are arguing is that someone planned on killing Asmodean, waited for him to enter the room, paused giving him time to channel, then killed him, all intentionally?

 

The time frame is fine. She goes to kill him. She recognizes him and is startled. She hesitates. she kills him.

 

I'm sorry, but the question of time if she planned to kill him is even more incongruent. Channeling is near to instantaneous, its peoples thought processes that have to catch up. If she was prepared he should have been dead before he saw her.

Channelling is near instantaneous, but people aren't. She didn't especially allow him to see her, other than being unmasked to add to his surprise. Look at the paragraph. Graendal acting immediately after Asmo is in full view, and you have what is written there. "Stop blood draining, you, no." She couldn't have acted before the "you?" started even then, but had to be ready in order to act before it ended. Channelling doesn't happen without thinking, that is the mind working.

I've never found the reasons you give for the necessity of a planned Graendal hit convincing. On the whole it's a plausible explanation, but I don't find it compelling. For example, now it's impossible for someone on the other side of the door to know someone is coming before Asmo steps through? I want to see your rewrite of the series now too

Oh, a hit decided on at the garden, if it could be managed. Not before finding Asmodean there. Anyone who wanted to know anything would have seen Asmo in the garden, pretty much. For a compelling story, I cannot help, I must make arguments within a strict logical frame. This is tough enough without confusing people more. I could write a compelling scenario for it, but it's not what I'm about, as I replied to Jonn. It is impossible for someone on the other side of the door to know Asmodean is coming without seeing him. As an answer to a potential follow-up, it isn't exactly hiding to kill everyone who crosses your path.

 

I might one day write something, of course not the series, but it will yet be at least ten years before that. I will be writing in Finnish, but perhaps I will eventually be translated, after the great success of the novel.

[Cybertrolloc]

I didn't mean compelling in the sense of your theory as written out has to be grippingly dramatic ;) Just the the arguments for your very specific set of events isn't exclusively justified by the text and Jordan hints.

 

Also Asmo walking in on someone doesn't mean that they look up and are as shocked as he apparently is. The killer could hear Asmo walking towards the murder scene or at least notice someone opening the door while doing something unrelated to a premeditated murder (premeditated in the sense of the killer knew it was Asmo coming through the door and had something specific in mind to do).

[Luckers]

cybertrollocs right. Whoever it was would have been wary anyway, being in enemy territory. Likely had it been anyone others the Asmodean the death would have been instantaneous. The brief hesitation come from the shock of finding she knew the person who had walked in.

 

And im sorry, but i dont see any validity to your argument about the time taken to say 'you, no!' and implications that that means it was premeditated.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, there I want to say that, hmmm, what is essentially compelling about it? What is compelling, is that only the three women qualify. Every time one thinks one has found a loophole around it, there's many reasons why the loophole doesn't work. I can't start listing every possibility, I don't remember them even, but I must say I think I've thought about each and every one during this past year.

 

Now, as to Jordan hints, I say, keep this in mind and reread the books from FoH to KoD, and you'll see them. RJ covers nearly every issue on the subject, one way or another. It is helpful also, because while I do know how things work in many sports, I must admit I have no experience in killing people, and I've pretty much skipped the fighting, too. So, if I can't be compelling, let RJ do it and reread.

 

Yep, but the question is not over being as shocked as Asmo, but being shocked at all. Anyone would be surprised at a door suddenly opening. And then that Asmodean himself walks through. That is already too much, let alone all the complications.

 

The one person I might make an exception for as to what comes to the complications would be Padan Fain. If he happened to be right in the doorway when it opened, he might slash at whomever opened it before he saw him. That doesn't really fit with the text though either. He would be crazy enough anyway.

[Graendals favourite]

Luckers, the essense is that if the person inside doesn't know, then something else than what is written in the text happens. It would be easier if this were a movie, then what happened would be clearer. The important thing is that things are not separate, but the text is an accurate description of what happened. Just going through this with a toilet door would help, pulling it open, taking the step and stopping, saying the words. Or being inside, asking someone to open it at an unforeseen moment.

 

In the text there is no hesitation on the murderers part.

 

Or alternatively, one could try pulling a toilet door open and doing this while someone is inside, and then observing whether they've killed you at the end of the "No!" :lol:

[Luckers]

Luckers, the essense is that if the person inside doesn't know, then something else than what is written in the text happens. It would be easier if this were a movie, then what happened would be clearer. The important thing is that things are not separate, but the text is an accurate description of what happened. Just going through this with a toilet door would help, pulling it open, taking the step and stopping, saying the words. Or being inside, asking someone to open it at an unforeseen moment.

 

In the text there is no hesitation on the murderers part.

 

I see nothing wrong or exceeding the definition of the text in that scenario. The door was opened, Graendal who had been preparing to either trick or kill (most likely kill) who had walked in on her hiding place hesitates briefly in shock of it being Asmodean. Asmodean recognizes her and cries out, this breaks her shock and she kills him.

 

I see aboslutely no contention.

[Wonga]

rd2000:

The only thing that annoys me is when people don't proofread their posts before posting. 8)

 

Hee hee. I agree, while I try to get my spelling and everything right; my punctuation and grammar are not the best! But sometimes there are thoroughly obvious mistakes and I can't help but want to fix them! :P

 

What's going to be really embarrassing is all the mistakes I've probably made in this post!

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "The hero worship I agree with totally. I hate it when people bash another character simply because they oppose their favourites" Unquote

 

The reason i hate it when Cadsuane gets on Rands case is because rand doesnt do anything about it. Its rand i bash, not cadsuane.

[Graendals favourite]

I see nothing wrong or exceeding the definition of the text in that scenario. The door was opened, Graendal who had been preparing to either trick or kill (most likely kill) who had walked in on her hiding place hesitates briefly in shock of it being Asmodean. Asmodean recognizes her and cries out, this breaks her shock and she kills him.

 

In order for the kill to have happened so, no there was no time for this hesitation. Her shock breaking when he speaks? After the "You?" is gone, it is late. Otherwise Asmo will not see death coming, and not die in the heels of the "No!"

[Jonn]

Yes and no, I agree the speculation is speculation. A rational try at explaining matters, what were the events that led to Graendal killing Asmo. After reaching the Semirhage-Mesaana-Graendal stage in the deductions, a glimpse at the background reveals Graendal as the killer. So it is interesting to find out why it was that Graendal ended up stalking up and ambushing Asmo. While ultimate why's are as impossible as the question "Why do I exist?", surely all the left-over info can be used to build a reasonable explanation to events.

 

But this is the catch, the explanation is not necessary to the question, which is "Who killed Asmodean?". The questions "What led to Asmodean dying that way?" and "What were the circumstances of his death?" are interesting, and if an answer is found, they may even inspire theories about other things. They have, in my case, at least the one about Graendal and Mat, and also my Graendal and Taim theory. Those theories would also have to obey the latter two questions. Also, the explanation I guess is what we as readers want to know, not just a blunt "Graendal," but some story behind it. Well, the story has never been promised, RJ has promised us the name. However, as with everything in the books, there are clues to what happened here and there, so putting these things together with what we know, we may construct the full story, which RJ has as usual hidden. No one knows everything, Rand least of all.

 

The solution is so compact, that's why it requires little evidence. Essentially three steps, each of them vital, one of which is difficult to explain, and then at least two explanations clearing up negative evidence, that is Graendal could end up in Caemlyn and behind that door. Certainly it is difficult to explain... And I can't agree with anyone else's theories, because my first vital step contradicts all of them.

 

I concur that Graendal killing Asmodean is more of a curiosity in aMoL. I'm not sure it needs to be there at all, but then it's plain enough anyway, best to keep the mystery as tight as possible. There is some chance that the Mat-Graendal or Taim-Graendal theories would have a narrative significance in aMoL if proven true, both of which are tied to Asmodean also, so perhaps it wouldn't be completely irrelevant. But a good puzzle is always worth it, there aren't too many of them around anywhere.

 

So, I can't agree with what you say, though I find I concur on surprisingly many things there. *shakes his head*

 

I think we agree thematically what a reveal entails at this point, so late in the series.

 

I'll put forward that to reveal it so late works well for Moiraine as she has been out of the picture for a while and such a reveal would work well thematically as exposition.

It doesn't really add to Graendal too much unless there is some unseen consequence for her supposed killing of Asmodean, that plays out in her final fate.

 

Like I said, it's quite alright to speculate about Graendal if you wish, but treat that speculation for what it is. It's guesswork with little going for it as far as evidence goes.

 

If Graendal killed Asmodean, we the audience have to come to a conclusion about her that we are not prepared to in any way in the text leading up to the act. We have to assume what she would do based on no prior information regarding her MO.

 

You guys can't even decide now whether she was accidentally caught by surprise or if she was calculating and stalking Asmodean.

 

I'm still back on her rationale for why she'd be in Caemlyn in the first place, and why it's never alluded to in the text that she was after the battle. Some say she was waiting with Rahvin so they could go to Illian. My counter is, why not just go straight to Illian and wait? Some say she came back to Caemlyn to look for goodies. My counter is we are never lead to believe that she would risk doing that for any gain. We don't see her do anything like that until after Fires of Heaven.

 

It's all very questionable. And in the end there is no reason to not reveal her as the killer. It's a rather mundane way to explain such a cliffhanger...a decade after the murder was written.

[Karthak]

Jesus H. Christ, can we please get back on topic? This thread is about common complaints, not yet another "who killed Asmodean" thingy.

[Kara_J]

Jesus H. Christ' date=' can we please get back on topic? This thread is about common complaints, not yet another "who killed Asmodean" thingy.[/quote']

 

Hear hear! :D

[Jonn]

Jesus H. Christ, can we please get back on topic? This thread is about common complaints, not yet another "who killed Asmodean" thingy.

 

Hear hear! :D

 

you're free to add to the topic if you like. If we go into a tangent...heck stuff like that happens. Too bad I guess.

 

I myself get annoyed by the overwrought hatred of Egwene. It's so played out. Faile hate is played out too. Lately, Elayne hatred has been the fad.

 

Frankly I don't think I hate any character except maybe Elaida because she reminds me of President Bush. I'm supposed to hate her though. She's a villainous poser.

[Luckers]

I agree with John completely...

 

Is this the end of the world?

[Karthak]

Jesus H. Christ' date=' can we please get back on topic? This thread is about common complaints, not yet another "who killed Asmodean" thingy.[/quote']

 

Hear hear! :D

 

you're free to add to the topic if you like. If we go into a tangent...heck stuff like that happens. Too bad I guess.

 

I myself get annoyed by the overwrought hatred of Egwene. It's so played out. Faile hate is played out too. Lately, Elayne hatred has been the fad.

 

Frankly I don't think I hate any character except maybe Elaida because she reminds me of President Bush. I'm supposed to hate her though. She's a villainous poser.

 

I don´t hate Egwene or Faile. I´m just very annoyed by both, Faile more than Egwene. The most frustrating thing about Faile is that she is so insanely jealous. I mean, it´s pretty damn obvious to me that Perrin has no interest in Berelain, but Faile just doesn´t see it! What´s wrong with her? And even Lini(elaynes former nanny) believing that Perrin slept with Berelain when Faile was kidnapped....That just sounds so wrong. Lini is a smart woman, so why does she believe that foolishness?

 

(I´m venting 3 years worth of frustration here)

[Luckers]

Egwene to my mind has to be one of the most intelligent and individualistic characters. i have no peoblems with her as she is.