one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Egwene]

OMG....well...this will certainly have put the cat amongst the pidgeons...lol

 

First things first: RJ's quotes...I thought he said that some had got it right. If he ever said only one or two....than yes, everyone we have been talking about is OUT :shock: :shock:

 

Assuming that you are correct in your RJ quote....in that case I would suggest the person that did it is the Aes Sedai that Rhavin had under his thumb. She is not mentioned anywhere during the battle and would most certainly be in hiding.

[Guest cwestervelt]

She might well have wanted to stay in hiding yes. That depends on how much of Rahvin's influence continued past his demise. I don't think she was staying in the palace though, so she would need to have come after the fight. By the point were Asmodean was offed, I would suspect the palace had been pretty thoroughly searched.

[Guest Egwene]

whilst we look at rank outsiders....I had Bashere on that list as well.....his comment about noone about..... Asmo would not have been instantly on guard if it had been Bashere...

 

Asmo's reaction seems to indicate suprise first, than realisation of impending fate....

 

It would be great to realy try and make a case for some of these suggestions i.e. Aviendha, Aes Sedai, Bashere and anyone else that you can think of. Rather than concentrating on why not....let's look for evidence....

[Guest cwestervelt]

Aviendha was with Mat by the fountain. I think Rand was even observing them. And wasn't Bashere with Rand at the time?

[Guest Egwene]

Hmmm..... Rand is observing Mat, Aviendha and Asmo......than there are a couple of minutes talking to Enaila at which point Bashere comes in.....

 

reading it again....I don't think there was enough time for Bashere to be the one...

 

and looking for evidence....well... having only just seen Aviendha...why would the blood drain from his face at the sight of her?

 

I am trying to make a case for these guys...but whereas I found it easy in Moiraine's case....

[Guest cwestervelt]

You would definitely need a strong motive. None of the people currently known to be in the palace have shown a tendency for killing without due cause. I can't think of any reason unless we have to conclude that Aviendha was told who Asmodean was by Moiraine. That seems unlikely as no one else has indicated knowledge of that.

 

Admittedly, Asmodean would be very puzzled to see Aviendha in the room after having just left her at the fountain. That makes it very hard to place her in that room for the killing. She can't Travel. She did it once in FoH, but as it was a panic, she blocked out the knowledge. That is why she has such a hard time trying to open gateways later when Elayne tries teaching her. Aviendha can't remember the way weave she used, but it still imprinted.

 

edit: This isn't being posted to discourage your theory but to provide you with some areas that need thorough coverage.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Fader, I know I don't know RJ like you do, but I thought he said that whilst only a few got it right to start with, many have since done so. And when did he confirm it was not Greandal? I am not doubting you in this, I just thought I had already found just about everything the great man had been quoted as saying on the subject.

Still, I don't think Avihenda is a riduculous choice at all. I thought about it myself before, and couldn't really see anything to stop her being there. But then I also couldn't see a reason for her hiding in a pantry ready to kill Asmo, but hey, I know i don't get ji'eh'toh :)

[Talya]

I always liked the idea that Taim did it....because Asmo would have been a threat to Taim when he wanted meet Rand and try to influence Rand when they eventually met.....unfortuanately We hadn't come across him accept as an offside comment....so that theory doesn't hold up....so have to go back to the drawing board if's not any of the most popular choices.... :lol:

[Guest Egwene]

Not my theory, cwestervelt, it was faders....just trying to expand on it....but I must say I find it difficult. Expanding on Avi that is....Bashere, having read the scene again, I don't think so. So of the far flung ones that I considered that leaves Rahvin's Black Sister....but why would Asmo know her?

 

winespring, I am looking forward to Fader coming back with a bit more on his theory as well as where/when those RJ quotes were made...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Not my theory, cwestervelt, it was faders....

 

Sorry if I made you think I took it as your theory, as I realized it wasn't. I was just throwing the stuff out there for anyone who wanted to try and expand on it.

[Guest Admiral]

Regardless of what has been said about Shaidar Haran not being introduced, i believe it was him who killed asmodean. Lanfear obviously did not as she was the one who introduced him to Rand in the first place.

[the dude]

okay, i'm not touching this discussion with a 10-foot pole, but since egwene asked so nicely in "general discussion," i'm voting graedal, because she is the one who did it. unless it was someone else, in which case i voted for them instead.

[Alys Kinch]

rand was in the throne room. mat and avi were in the courtyard. not the same room. floors separating them.

[Paradoxic]

Yay, the great Asmodean Debate! I was part of the latter part of 1, all of 2, and most of 3 back on the original boards... so I've heard every one of the arguments so far presented here.

 

As for Aviendha: She could not have done this. She was at the fountain with Matt and Asmo. Asmo got up, walked away from the fountain, found the door, went inside, was surprised by who he saw, knew he was going to die, died.

1) How did Aviendha get to the door?

2) Why was Asmo afraid of her?

3) Why would Aviendha kill Asmodean?

 

As for Ishammael:

1) He was dead and we didn't know he could come back to life.

 

As for Bashere, Taim, Lan, random Wise Women:

1) How would Asmo recognize them?

2) Why was Asmo afraid of them?

3) How did they know Asmo would pick THAT random door?

 

As for Shaidar Haran:

1) How would Asmodean have recognized him? Asmo's reaction showed familiarity with the person he ran into... not just a simple fade sitting around doing nothing.

2) How did Asmo know he would be killed?

3) How could he have been intuitive by any stretch of definition if we never met him before?

 

Now, that should take care of the side subjects... I've never seen people answer those questions successfully.

 

As for Moiraine/Lanfear there are some problems and some things that may be ignored.

1) How did they get out?

2) Why kill Asmodean? Both definately had better targets to be killed than Asmo (yes, I am aware of the 'maybe she didn't get to name a specific person' argument, if you subscribe to that you may consider this question answered).

 

Now, they both would have correctly brought out Asmodean's response, that much is obvious. My biggest problems have been the two I listed. While issue 2 has, after awhile now, been given an acceptable response... Issue 1 has never been answered in a way I agree with.

 

Yes, I know the arguments... However, they tend to require a lot to be created to support them. For example: We have weak evidence that someone could be 'teleported' to anywhere in the world from Finn-land (weak in that Matt's hanging could have been done through more conventional means just as likely as it could have been done by teleporting him onto the tree branch). We have absolutely zero evidence that the Finns can suck people back into their world afterwards. The same is said of the ways out of Finn-land. Sure, there could just be the one door in-and-out, or many, or none save what the Finns create... but no matter what, the Finns would have had to have let the killer out and I just don't see any evidence to suggest they could have brought the killer back.

 

Either could be the killers, I don't discount that, but for me they simply require too much assumption and "world building" to come up with ways around two very solid-seeming obsticles to their success.

 

As for my choice, I'm with Graendal.

 

Why was she in the city? Well, two reasons. One is for the same reason she was in Illian. Just because she wasn't explicitly told that Rhavin had found some stuff doesn't mean she would not have gone looking anyway. Second is that she had this deal with Rhavin and Sammael. Rand attacks Sammael, Rhavin and Graendal come in from behind and attack Rand. Well... no one attacks Sammael. From here we either assume she comes because she heard about the attack and wants to pick over the ruins OR she comes to talk to Rhavin and finds a bad situation. Either way, she has perfectly fiesible reasons for being in the city at that time.

 

How she was recognized? My favorite reason is that she didn't bother with a disguise or used a disguise very similar to her normal look (as Moghedian talks about herself doing). Alternatively, she used a very different looking disguse... but unfortunately one that Asmo was familiar with.

 

How did she end up meeting Asmodean? This answer always bothers people. I maintain the "unlucky coincidence" theory. I do not believe that his death has major importance to the plot. With that said, she could have been in there looking for secret rooms, she could have been in there being a sneaky spider, she could have been in there hiding while she regathered her thoughts, or she could have been in there because she had just arrived/was just about to leave and knew that room to be off to the side and unfrequented.

 

Why did she kill Asmodean? She knew he was with Rand and that is reason enough for the forsaken.

 

Additional evidence? She's the ONLY person to say he is dead, not just disappeared. All the others seem to think he turned tail and ran while she, for her own reasons, states several different times that she believes him dead. This is nothing on its own, but it is helpful towards the big picture.

 

Between the two major camps, I just see too much "well, if we assume X and guess at Y and frankly make up Z then she definately did it" coming from the Moiraine camps. We simple Do Not Know enough about the Finns and their world to come up with the 'how' for Moiraine or Lanfear to have PERSONALLY done it.

 

If you've read this all, I salute you. Egwene wanted discussion and the answering of questions... I hope I provided some of both. By the way, I'm really surprised that Lanfear has more votes than Moiraine. Of the two, I'd have thought Lanfear a much less likely subject for the murderer (she'd have wanted Egwene and Aviendha dead more than anyone else in the whole world at that point).

[Guest Egwene]

:P thanks Paradoxic... that's a fantastic post. It does summarise a lot of the points raised. Maybe you ought to get it on the FAQ Library. You can't use the link at the top yet for posting, but Matalina suggested to post books@dragonmount.com ( hope I remembered correctly)

 

I still prefer the Lanfear/Moiraine theory. My main argument against Graendal is the fact that up to that point she just didn't figure highly enough for me to even think of her. It's only because of these discussion boards that I now consider her third to M/L.

[Paradoxic]

Graendal never would have betrayed a Forsaken unless she was certain she could get away with it and not have anyone else even guess at what she did. Thus, she would have kept to her part of the bargin even if Rhavin didn't. Getting rid of Rand is much more important than getting rid of Sammael. Since Rhavin was involved, she couldn't have ignored her side of the bargin because Rhavin may have followed through on his side and thus lead to awkward questions regarding how much one should even bother listening to, let alone trusting in so much as they do trust each other, her.

 

Graendal was fully using Sammael, of course, which is why his continued life would be more useful to her than his death... She knew how he worked and never found him a difficult person to control. She just wouldn't have gone out on a limb to save him at great threat to her own life.

 

None of the Forsaken like each other, this is true. However, things like the Forsaken Coffee Hour show that they do work together against common enemies when necessary. I'd say that Sammael, Rhavin, Lanfear, and Graendal had much much more to gain with Rand dead than with Sammael.

 

Yes, of course. Every Single One of these choices involve assumptions. My point is that with Graendal the assumptions are easier to swallow than with Moiraine/Lanfear... at least for me anyway.

 

[Edited slightly because the post it refers to... well, see the next post, heh. The comments are still valid as they are a response to an issue that I forgot to address in my first post]

[Guest cwestervelt]

I actually deleted the post you are refering too. I didn't mean for it to get submitted, and then kept getting errors before I was able to remove it.

 

But I do think Graendal would have double crossed Samael.

[Graendals favourite]

After a good thought, I don't see that we should know what the killer's original reason for being in Caemlyn was.

 

Great post Paradoxic. I still don't see Graendal going about the Palace unmasked, or just killing Asmodean immediately, him stumbling on her and she not knowing whether he's coming alone. I think it must've been ambush.

[Paradoxic]

Ambush is not really a possibility. Asmodean states himself that he is just wandering around and chooses a door at random. I think Graendal basically made an opportunistic kill because, hey, no one could expect that she killed another forsaken (which would make her a threat in the eyes of the other forsaken) and it would be worth kudo points with the DO.

 

As to an unmasked Graendal... Who was she afraid would recognize her? I don't think they had fully agreed that Rand was LT reborn at that time.

[Guest Admiral]

It was lews therin. With the incident in the dream world where Rand entered in the flesh, there was a conflict between lews and Rand over who would control their body. I believe that after this, lews left Rand's body ( you notice that there is an absence of lews therins voice in rands head after) and re-entered the real world to kill asmodean, who Lews Therin knew would betray Rand eventually.

[Alys Kinch]

that is kind of ridiculous since they share a soul! and ltt never really left, he was just silent.

[Graendals favourite]

Ambush is a possibility, since it is completely possible to follow Asmo from the fountain, then when seeing Asmodean approach a small door with the intention of opening it, Travel behind it, and unmask to make Asmo shocked at seeing her, thus slowing his reactions, and also to be at close range.

 

It makes sense to ambush, because Graendal, at the least, cannot be sure Asmodean is shielded.

 

On the other hand, Graendal knew Asmo had betrayed, and if she but suspected he was in the Palace, he could have recognised her at the wrong moment. I mean thus one would expect her to be masked.

 

Asmo's wandering though makes it impossible for anyone but Graendal, Semirhage, or Mesaana to have ambushed him.

[Alys Kinch]

in order to know that he would go through that door, she would have had to follow until he touched it. i don't really think that in the time it took to open it and step through, she would have had time to weave a gateway, let it fully open, step through, close it completely(something would have had to be said about a vanishing gateway), and set a weave to kill him, not to mention dropping that mask you insist on. it doesn't fit, even if you still don't like my saying so.

[Graendals favourite]

No wait, but let me explain. I think it's apparent, (when someone is walking normally and not in any kind of figure dance or something strange,) that when you're gonna take a door you approach it before that, walk towards it. I mean the intention can be seen a few steps before, already. That gives a few seconds.

 

Edit: I think the longest time here goes in leaping through that gateway, all else can be prepared while about it, i think. The Forsaken I think are very skilled at handling the Power, do it very quickly.

[Guest Majsju]

But it's not only a mater of making a gateway, it's also a matter of being pretty damn sure there's noone around to see you step through a hole in the air.