one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK. Let's take your approach and start with the murder scene.

 

It's a doorway. Either a sliding door or one that opens out into the hallway. Either way, he pulled the door open.

 

Asmo opens that door, takes a single step, stops, says, "You? No!", and dies.

 

The scene itself plus the circumstance tells us that Asmo may have still been partially visible down that hallway when he died. The doorway itself may have been visible from the garden. Neither Mat nor Aviendha noticed anything. No flashes of light. No sounds of exploding fireballs. There is no mention of any of the surrounding structure showing any signs of damage. There is no mention of any blood. There is no mention of a body. Rand and everyone with him think Asmo simply ran off.

 

None of that gives us method. None of that singles out one weapon or another. There is nothing that even hints that this doorway was ever a murder scene.

 

There are many mundane ways to kill someone without making a mess. There are probably many ways to kill someone supernaturally without making a mess also. The lack of a body and the lack of a mess prove nothing about what method was used.

 

So, the murder scene itself tells us nothing about the killer or the means used to commit the murder. It only tells us someone had the opportunity and took it.

 

If we are going to narrow down our potential suspects we need to look beyond the murder scene before we can even come up with a starting list of names.

[SinisterDeath]

It's a doorway. Either a sliding door or one that opens out into the hallway. Either way, he pulled it open,

 

Asmo opens that door, takes a single step, stops, says, "You? No!", and dies.

 

The scene itself plus the circumstance tells us that Asmo may have still been partially visible down that hallway when he died. The doorway itself may have been visible from the garden. Neither Mat nor Aviendha noticed anything. No flashes of light.

 

By that theory, wouldn't mat/avi have heard asmo yell out "You? No!" ?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not necessarily. If the door opens outward, and Asmo stepped behind it to go through the doorway, he would be speaking down the other hallway, with the door itself cutting off most of any sound that would emanate toward the garden.

 

Unfortunately, we don't know whether the door opened out, or slid. And, if it opened out, which way it swung. So, it's impossible to say whether anyone in the garden would have heard what Asmo said or not.

 

Since we don't know exactly where that doorway is in relation to the garden, it's impossible to say whether it would have been visible from there. All we can say is it might have been.

[Graendals favourite]

OK. Let's take your approach and start with the murder scene.

 

It's a doorway. Either a sliding door or one that opens out into the hallway. Either way, he pulled it open,

 

Asmo opens that door, takes a single step, stops, says, "You? No!", and dies.

 

The scene itself plus the circumstance tells us that Asmo may have still been partially visible down that hallway when he died. The doorway itself may have been visible from the garden. Neither Mat nor Aviendha noticed anything. No flashes of light. No sounds of exploding fireballs. There is no mention of any of the surrounding structure showing any signs of damage. There is no mention of any blood. There is no mention of a body. Rand and everyone with him think Asmo simply ran off.

 

None of that gives us method. None of that singles out one weapon or another. There is nothing that even hints that this doorway was ever a murder scene.

 

There are many mundane ways to kill someone without making a mess. There are probably many ways to kill someone supernaturally without making a mess also. The lack of a body and the lack of a mess prove nothing about what method was used.

 

So, the murder scene itself tells us nothing about the killer or the means used to commit the murder. It only tells us someone had the opportunity and took it.

 

If we are going to narrow down our potential suspects we need to look beyond the murder scene before we can even come up with a starting list of names.

 

Quite true, most of that, until you mention the opportunity in this instance.

 

It tells us someone had the opportunity and took it. It goes down to only the female forsaken having the opportunity.

 

The opportunity means that someone was beyond that door in a position to immediately kill Asmodean. This requires amongst other things that the kill was conceivably attractive to the killer.

 

Also, it is not a question whether he could kill Asmodean, but whether he could kill him as you accurately described.

 

Without the foreknowledge of Asmo's arrival, the killer would not have been any less surprised than Asmodean, and without the knowledge he was alone, attacking him immediately would not have been an attractive option.

 

Thinking about separate people, the more able they are, the more other options they have, also. Being surprised they miss the point when Asmo should already die, having other alternatives they will take those rather than attack without learning more, if nothing else then flee or wait. There's two surprises for them: Someone comes, and Asmo comes. They cannot act before they recognise Asmo, and if they are surprised, they can hardly be quicker than him, and they still lack info on who else comes.

[Graendals favourite]

Oh, a killing with the power need not entail a flash of light, or a thunderclap. Surely the Forsaken can do better, if they deem it prudent. A bullet of air comes to mind, but they should know.

[SinisterDeath]

Hmm, could that death gate that rand makes, be used to kill asmo quitely as well as bloodlessly? I'm sure the forsaken know how to make that thing..

[Bob T Dwarf]

It tells us someone had the opportunity and took it. It goes down to only the female forsaken having the opportunity.

 

See' date=' this is where you jump off the rails. No, there is nothing about either the scene or the situation that tells us it could only be a female Forsaken.

 

A female Forsaken is certainly one possibility, but it is not the only possibility. It could also be a male Forsaken. It could be anyone.

 

It simply [i']was[/i] whoever was beyond that door.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hmm' date=' could that death gate that rand makes, be used to kill asmo quitely as well as bloodlessly? I'm sure the forsaken know how to make that thing..[/quote']

 

As far as I know, that only works on Shadowspawn. Asmo, being entirely human, would simply be transported to some other random place.

[SinisterDeath]

Hmm, but you your self bob, have said that camelyn is layered with traps, And the only traps that rhavin set up were for men. So via your logic it couldnt have been a male channeler because he would have died from the traps. :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

We don't know what traps Rahvin had set. Moggy only mentions the ones set against male channelers, but that doesn't mean they were the only ones. One of Jordan's tenets, that he has spelled out explicitly is that nobody ever tells other people everything they know. Not even sometimes when it is something they should know.

 

Rahvin didn't trust either Lanfear or Graendal one little bit. His POV in the Prologue talks about how anyone who trusted Lanfear behind him deserved the knife he would find in his back.

 

It is not unreasonable to assume there were traps against female channelers as well.

[Graendals favourite]

It tells us someone had the opportunity and took it. It goes down to only the female forsaken having the opportunity.

 

See' date=' this is where you jump off the rails. No, there is nothing about either the scene or the situation that tells us it could only be a female Forsaken.

 

A female Forsaken is certainly one possibility, but it is not the only possibility. It could also be a male Forsaken. It could be anyone.

 

It simply [i']was[/i] whoever was beyond that door.

 

Oh, but only a female forsaken could have known those two things:

 

It took seeing Asmo walk alone to know he was alone. It took seeing him approach the door to know he was going there. It took Travelling to get from seeing Asmo to behind the door in the time Asmo walked to the door. Only the Chosen and Rand know how to. Saidin would not have worked because Asmo would have noticed it. (A male chosen would not have even tried.) So it had to be a female forsaken, to have the opportunity of that kill behind the door.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And now you're even further off the rails.

 

Who was there? You have yet to provide any logical or overriding reason for any Forsaken to be there.

 

If such a hypothetical person existed, with such acute observational or psychic powers, it could as well have been a male using an inverted weave as a female.

[SinisterDeath]

But, inverted weave would only mean asmodean wouldnt see the guy channel, but he would know someone is channeling near him.

[Graendals favourite]

Who was there? You have yet to provide any logical or overriding reason for any Forsaken to be there.

 

If such a hypothetical person existed, with such acute observational or psychic powers, it could as well have been a male using an inverted weave as a female.

 

Yes, I spoken not a word on who was there. I've spoken who must have been there. I'm starting from how the murder could have happened, so when reaching the conclusion it could only have been carried out by a female Forsaken, then one of them must have been there. Yes, the analysis starts from the murder scene. Since that gives the answer, what else is needed?

 

You're referring to reversed weaves, which weren't known, but... The time in getting behind the door when Asmo was first seen to approach it was not long. It is conveyed in the books, that first you create a weave, then reverse it, only then release, and this takes time. When they use reversing, the forsaken prepare the weaves in advance. The Travelling would not have been attractive as an alternative to a male forsaken.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes' date=' I spoken not a word on who was there. I've spoken who must have been there. I'm starting from how the murder could have happened, so when reaching the conclusion it could only have been carried out by a female Forsaken, then one of them must have been there. Yes, the analysis starts from the murder scene. Since that gives the answer, what else is needed?

[/quote']

 

There are an almost unlimited number of ways the murder could have happened. To fasten on only one of them, and say that this particular one is the only way it could have happened is pure fancy.

[Graendals favourite]

Yet you didn't comment on any of the arguments why the murderer had to know those two things in advance. They stand, so there is only one way.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, the murderer could have simply been someone coming the other way up that hallway who ran into Asmo at the door and had better reaction time.

 

There is absolutely nothing that says it could only have been an ambush. That is something you have made up in your own head.

 

I fully understand that you have convinced yourself, but that does not make it fact. It only makes an ambush one of the possibilities.

[Graendals favourite]

You ignore the arguments, not answer them. Be reaction time what it may, there is still a reation time, and the arguments still stand.

 

Throwing a quick reason, then denying it all, does not refute the arguments.

[Jonn_2]

Who was there? You have yet to provide any logical or overriding reason for any Forsaken to be there.

 

If such a hypothetical person existed' date=' with such acute observational or psychic powers, it could as well have been a male using an inverted weave as a female.[/quote']

 

Yes, I spoken not a word on who was there. I've spoken who must have been there. I'm starting from how the murder could have happened, so when reaching the conclusion it could only have been carried out by a female Forsaken, then one of them must have been there. Yes, the analysis starts from the murder scene. Since that gives the answer, what else is needed?

 

 

Motive, means, opportunity and in this special case as it is a book, service to the plot that makes sense.

 

I interpret what Bob is saying to mean motive. I'll add on service to the plot to make it even better.

 

Graendal partially fulfills opportunity and more or less has the means to pull the trigger. She hardly begins to explain any real motive given the circumstances, and the service to the plot has been next to nil. If Graendal is the solution, then so far it has been the biggest goose chase ever put in print.

[SinisterDeath]

Yet he ignores the fact that who killed Asmodean, knew him.

It was dealt with very fast, and with no blood, and the corpse was no where near the palace, if there was a corpse. The do basically stated that he couldn't have saved asmodean, had he wanted to.

So whats that tell us bob? That it was just a random encounter of a servant who asmo called a slut, and decided to balefire him, even though she/he can't channel? Dun think so!

[Bob T Dwarf]

You ignore the arguments' date=' not answer them. Be reaction time what it may, there is still a reation time, and the arguments still stand.

 

Throwing a quick reason, then denying it all, does not refute the arguments.[/quote']

 

What you're saying does not constitute any rational argument. You have arbitrarily decided based on gosh only knows what, that it had to be an ambush. Then you have invented perpetrator, motive, means and opportunity to fit your preconception.

 

None of that is evidence of anything other than what you imagine.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yet he ignores the fact that who killed Asmodean' date=' knew him.

It was dealt with very fast, and with no blood, and the corpse was no where near the palace, if there was a corpse. The do basically stated that he couldn't have saved asmodean, had he wanted to.

So whats that tell us bob? That it was just a random encounter of a servant who asmo called a slut, and decided to balefire him, even though she/he can't channel? Dun think so![/quote']

 

I'm not ignoring it at all.

 

We simply haven't got that far yet. We're still dealing with the murder scene and how little it tells us and how much G's fave imagines it does.

 

If we can ever get beyond what G's fave imagines must have happened, we can began to deal with the fact that Asmo and his killer knew each other.

[Graendals favourite]

Bob, at this point, although I'm not a casual observer, I'd say it is intuitively obvious you cannot refute those arguments. You can call them what you will, but they still stand.

 

Yep, Sinister.

 

Yea, Jonn_2, all of those things are the same. The Killer must have had enough motivation, and it can easily be seen how Graendal could. None of it refutes her, and it is immediately clear why she is the one given the very few alternatives.

 

I think the undercover work is enough for a plot device, but that is a matter of taste. Also that it's a murder mystery. I think it became such a goose chase, because people just didn't look at it this way in the beginning. In a way, this is so far from the others, the approach and focus is completely different. Who knows.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Neither I nor anyone else can refute things you've made up in your own head. It's your imagination. You are free to imagine anything you like. Nobody can refute what you imagine because it is all entirely a construct that exists only inside your own head.

 

You can imagine little green men on Mars if that floats your boat. Nobody can refute that either, because it's entirely something you made up in your own mind.

 

So I'm simply going to quit trying to have any kind of rational discussion with you on the subject.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bob' date=' at this point, although I'm not a casual observer, I'd say it is intuitively obvious you cannot refute those arguments. You can call them what you will, but they still stand.

 

Yep, Sinister.

 

Yea, Jonn_2, all of those things are the same. The Killer must have had enough motivation, and it can easily be seen how Graendal could. None of it refutes her, and it is immediately clear why she is the one given the very few alternatives.

 

I think the undercover work is enough for a plot device, but that is a matter of taste. Also that it's a murder mystery. I think it became such a goose chase, because people just didn't look at it this way in the beginning. In a way, this is so far from the others, the approach and focus is completely different. Who knows.[/quote']

 

It became such a goose chase because people consistantly put forward groundless arguments and convoluted seqeunces of events. Much like you are doing.

 

In your theory, there are 3 points were any viable candidate must Travel. Getting into Caemlyn, within the palace, and getting out of Caemlyn. Fighting was still going on in and around Caemlyn, so the palace would be the only potential safe entry point/exit point making it likely that all three Travellings would have been within sensing range from the palace. You rule out the male Foresaken because Rand and Asmodean would have sensed it. Fine, agreed. Now you need to rule out the female Foresaken because Rand and Asmodean may have sensed a woman holding that much power, and Aviendha would have sensed. Every time this has been pointed out before, Graendal supports always want to discard Aviendha's ability to sense that by saying she wasn't that well trained yet. You cannot make that claim as we have eveidence the Wise Ones didn't baby her like the Aes Sedai do their novices. She was already throwing fireballs in training sessions when Novices would be passing puff ball flames. They allowed her to combat channel for the better part of a day during the seige of Cairhien. They allowed her to go to Caemlyn where they knew a Foresaken was, and combat channelling would be unavoidable. Elayne and Egwene could sense the other channelling before they could manage a stable puff ball flame. Aviendha is way beyond Tower Novice level and is at least at an advanced Accepted level.

 

"At this point, although I'm not a casual observer, I'd say it is intuitively obvious you cannot refute those arguments. You can call them what you will, but they still stand." Your statements apply just as well to the previous paragraph, in fact better, than they do to your own arguments. At least the preceeding paragraph uses verifiable information to make its assumptions.

 

Unfortunately saying that someone can't refute your argument doesn't make it any stronger. It just shows you are grasping at anything to justify a position. As you said, this is a murder mystery. If you can't prove opportunity, you don't have a suspect. It is quite obvious that you hold to a "guilty until proven innocent" stand point, but I don't. I was raised on the opposite concept of "innocent until proven quilty." In your mind, it is acceptable to say, "no one else could have done it, so it has to have been you." That doesn't prove opportunity, that just proves lack of objectivity as you method of eliminating suspects would also eliminate your only remaining candidate.

 

Your justification of your arguments never gets much beyond saying, "you can't prove me wrong." As Bob has said, attempting to refute something that is pure fantasy, is rather difficult. Each time we do, you add another couple steps of baseless statements and say that's how it had to happen. Fortunately for us, your doing so makes your own position undefendable. The burden of proof belongs on the prosecution, not the defence. You are the one who has to be able to prove beyond doubt that Graendal did it. I just have to provide reasonable doubt that she didn't, and your failure to accept the importance of facts rather than conjecture does that for me.