Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[Eht Slat Meit]

Best not to let the woman think that was her way of rejecting the offer out of hand. “Of course, the normal cus­toms duties would apply to any goods moving off this land into Andor.”

Zaida raised her silver cup to her mouth, and when she low­ered it, she wore the tiniest smile. Yet Elayne thought it was a smile of relief rather than triumph. “Goods moving into Andor, but not goods coming from the river onto our land. I might leave three Windfinders. For half a year, say. And they must not be used in fighting. I will not have my people die for you, and I will not have other Andorans angry at us because Sea Folk have killed some of them.”

 

Not certain but I believe you are misinterpreting the implications of that scene, the situation will enrich Andor and the Sea Folk will pay custom duties. Are you forgetting the later scene where Elayne thinks how they never specified the the land has to be on a river. She has thought it through and according to her inner thoughts has worked out a way that Andor will profit.

 

Again, note the wording. It doesn't matter if the Sovereignty isn't on the river, Andor still can't impose duties on any Sea Folk goods coming from the river into the Sovereignty. The only thing they can impose duties on are the goods coming out of the Sovereignty into Andor. Which means that they can only get those duties if the Sea Folk are foolish enough to bring the goods off their own land to sell in Andor.

 

That's entirely against the rules of good negotiation - you make them come to you. It's a standard Sea Folk practice. So the Andorans will come to the Sovereignty(ies), buy what is offered, and then be taxed on what they bring into their own country.

 

“Under the Light, it is agreed,” she was able to say at last, kiss­ing the fingertips of her right hand and leaning forward to press them to Zaida’s lips. Aviendha grinned, obviously impressed. Bir­gitte kept a smooth face, but the bond said she found it hard to believe Elayne had come out so well.

 

That means that Elayne -thinks- she came out well. It doesn't mean that she will. I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the wording on Birgitte's thoughts - that looks like skepticism to me, not elation. Half of a bargaining process and what makes contracts a formidable force is making the person you are dealing with at the time believe they are coming out ahead or even. Then sticking it to them afterward.

[XXX]

 

 

And I said an assassination squad of 10 AM could travel from place to place and kill all the rebel leaders in a ridiculously easy fashion. And that is how every rebellion in every country ever conquered has been squashed in our world atleast.

 

You really need to read up on your history if you believe the above statement to be true.

 

Actually you are the one who should read up on history...I would suggest the European colonization of Asia and Africa with special emphasis on the British Empire.

[Suttree]

Edit: David pointed out I was wrong on this point...

 

 

Another benefit is now "Andoran goods would be able to move in Sea Folk bottoms everywhere the Sea Folk sailed, and that was everywhere." which is another huge plus to the deal.

 

That means that Elayne -thinks- she came out well. It doesn't mean that she will. I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the wording on Birgitte's thoughts - that looks like skepticism to me, not elation.

 

It means Avi and Birgitte think she came out well in addition to Elayne. The way it is written it's obviously meant to show they are impressed.

 

 

 

And I said an assassination squad of 10 AM could travel from place to place and kill all the rebel leaders in a ridiculously easy fashion. And that is how every rebellion in every country ever conquered has been squashed in our world atleast.

 

You really need to read up on your history if you believe the above statement to be true.

 

Actually you are the one who should read up on history...I would suggest the European colonization of Asia and Africa with special emphasis on the British Empire.

 

No one said it hasn't happened before but your blanket statement is plainly false. There are numerous examples of it playing out in different directions throughout history. Rather pointless to continue the discussion if you don't already get what I am talking about.

[David Selig]

The Zaida deal in CoT was bad for Elayne at the time for a more basic reason - she had more than enough Kin women to do the Gateways even if all Windfinders left. Most of them are weak, but they can link. But Jordan needed the Windfinders to stay to beat the Black Ajah later, so we had another case of plot-induced amnesia among the characters, as I like to call it.

 

But even considering that, it wasn't that bad of a deal, even forgetting that those Windfighters later saved Elayne from the BA. With the widespread of commercial Travelling, sea and river trade would get mostly irrelevant, plus the Sea Folk don't do river trading now.

 

BTW, Ithought it was Rand who noted about his similar deal with the Sea Folk that he doesn't have to grant them land with access to the sea/river (since the deal was to give them land at any port he owned at the time), Zaida specifically wanted a spot adjacent to the river.

 

 

She's never thanked him personally no, though to be fair she hasn't exactly seen him much.

It could well have happened after they went into the bedroom to have sex, they must've had some breaks to talk given how much time they were at it. And later on in far Madding Rand mentioned something Elayne had told him about the current situation in Andor, so they've definitely talked in between the sex.

[Suttree]

BTW, Ithought it was Rand who noted about his similar deal with the Sea Folk that he doesn't have to grant them land with access to the sea/river (since the deal was to give them land at any port he owned at the time), Zaida specifically wanted a spot adjacent to the river.

 

Eh as I said in the first post I wasn't certain, CoT isn't my specialty...and you are right about Zaida making that request. Regardless goods moving into Andor are taxed. If the Sea Folk make merchants come to them it matters not because the Crown still gets paid either way, while Andoran merchants get unprecedented access to Sea Folk goods. This is all in addition to the now unequaled range for their own goods moving in Sea Folk vessels in the quote provided in my last post.

 

As a side note at what point would goods entering Andor by river be taxed? Wouldn't that happen at the border upon entering a country(that would be goods moving into Andor which Zaida agreed to) long before the Sea Folk got to their allotted land? Otherwise they could just freely trade up until Aringill or the like which seems highly unlikely.

 

Either way there is significant monetary gain to be made.

 

You could argue that the common people are actuall less well off with a system that allows for occasional civil war for a throne than with the one which would firmly fix the rules in Seanchan style and limit the fighting to back-stabbing among the ruling class.

 

You could make the argument but you would be utterly wrong. Piotreks you know you don't want to head down the rode in arguing that commoners are better off in Seanchan than Andor. You do realize how many rebellions they frequently have there that Karede mentions putting down? Bottom line in Andor most successions do not have wars. It has happened very rarely, only four times in Andor's history. Even when wars are fought you must still win the votes to claim the throne. On the flip side Kared mentions "numerous" rebellions just in his time with the Deathwatch Gurads. It is not limited to back stabbing among the ruling class in the slightest. All of that that is before we even touch on the whole personnel freedoms side of things. The idea is preposterous to say the least.

 

But it is not a democracy, nor a democratic monarchy!

 

You are right I meant to call it an Elective Monarchy.

[MasterAblar]

She's never thanked him personally no, though to be fair she hasn't exactly seen him much.

It could well have happened after they went into the bedroom to have sex, they must've had some breaks to talk given how much time they were at it. And later on in far Madding Rand mentioned something Elayne had told him about the current situation in Andor, so they've definitely talked in between the sex.

 

Well, perhaps the sex itself was her way of giving thanks.

[Guest PiotrekS]

You could argue that the common people are actuall less well off with a system that allows for occasional civil war for a throne than with the one which would firmly fix the rules in Seanchan style and limit the fighting to back-stabbing among the ruling class.

 

You could make the argument but you would be utterly wrong. Piotreks you know you don't want to head down the rode in arguing that commoners are better off in Seanchan than Andor. You do realize how many rebellions they frequently have there that Karede mentions putting down? Bottom line in Andor most successions do not have wars. It has happened very rarely, only four times in Andor's history. Even when wars are fought you must still win the votes to claim the throne. On the flip side Kared mentions "numerous" rebellions just in his time with the Deathwatch Gurads. It is not limited to back stabbing among the ruling class in the slightest. All of that that is before we even touch on the whole personnel freedoms side of things. The idea is preposterous to say the least.

 

I meant the system which ensures stability while taking away individual rights is better than the system which leads to various bloody conflicts while giving only a little more rights to the people.

Forgot about all the rebellions in the Seanchan being mentioned in the text. I hang my head in shame and retract my comment.

But it is not a democracy, nor a democratic monarchy!

 

You are right I meant to call it an Elective Monarchy.

 

Right - and even more, elective among a very small number of people, a circle of particular families.

 

It is interesting to compare it to Polish elective monarchy of XVI-XVIII centuries, where the number of people allowed to participate in king's election was about 10% of the whole society (around a million people).

[Guest PiotrekS]

She's never thanked him personally no, though to be fair she hasn't exactly seen him much.

It could well have happened after they went into the bedroom to have sex, they must've had some breaks to talk given how much time they were at it. And later on in far Madding Rand mentioned something Elayne had told him about the current situation in Andor, so they've definitely talked in between the sex.

 

I doubt it. They were almost teenagers. I think they hardly spoke at all

[Suttree]

You could argue that the common people are actuall less well off with a system that allows for occasional civil war for a throne than with the one which would firmly fix the rules in Seanchan style and limit the fighting to back-stabbing among the ruling class.

 

You could make the argument but you would be utterly wrong. Piotreks you know you don't want to head down the rode in arguing that commoners are better off in Seanchan than Andor. You do realize how many rebellions they frequently have there that Karede mentions putting down? Bottom line in Andor most successions do not have wars. It has happened very rarely, only four times in Andor's history. Even when wars are fought you must still win the votes to claim the throne. On the flip side Kared mentions "numerous" rebellions just in his time with the Deathwatch Gurads. It is not limited to back stabbing among the ruling class in the slightest. All of that that is before we even touch on the whole personnel freedoms side of things. The idea is preposterous to say the least.

 

I meant the system which ensures stability while taking away individual rights is better than the system which leads to various bloody conflicts while giving only a little more rights to the people.

Forgot about all the rebellions in the Seanchan being mentioned in the text. I hang my head in shame and retract my comment.

 

In theory you would be correct but even without all the rebellions in Seanchan, Andor doesn't fit the definition of "giving only a little more rights to the people" in comparison. Not even close.

 

Well, perhaps the sex itself was her way of giving thanks.

 

Or by making him High Lord above all others while having the 2Rs be tax exempt in perpetuity. Think it goes without saying now that she knows a forsaken held power she realizes the debt Andor owes Rand for what he did.

[MasterAblar]

Or by making him High Lord above all others while having the 2Rs be tax exempt in perpetuity. Think it goes without saying now that she knows a forsaken held power she realizes the debt Andor owes Rand for what he did.

 

I know, that's what I posted on the previous page. It's not clear if she has thanked him in person though, but like I said she hasn't really had time for that and the one time she had the occasion to I don't think it would have been really romantic of her to tell him: "By the way thanks for killing that Forsaken who raped and mindraped my mother, I really owe you". I suspect Rand would be somewhat turned off by that.

[XXX]

 

Well, perhaps the sex itself was her way of giving thanks.

 

Or by making him High Lord above all others while having the 2Rs be tax exempt in perpetuity. Think it goes without saying now that she knows a forsaken held power she realizes the debt Andor owes Rand for what he did.

 

She did not do that to thank Rand but as a excuse to give 2R what they wanted..it is not like she was thinking about it before Perrin came to see her.

 

I do not think there is even a PoV from her thanking Rand for it..but plenty with her hissy fit "how dare he give me the throne" tone

[Guest PiotrekS]

You could argue that the common people are actuall less well off with a system that allows for occasional civil war for a throne than with the one which would firmly fix the rules in Seanchan style and limit the fighting to back-stabbing among the ruling class.

 

You could make the argument but you would be utterly wrong. Piotreks you know you don't want to head down the rode in arguing that commoners are better off in Seanchan than Andor. You do realize how many rebellions they frequently have there that Karede mentions putting down? Bottom line in Andor most successions do not have wars. It has happened very rarely, only four times in Andor's history. Even when wars are fought you must still win the votes to claim the throne. On the flip side Kared mentions "numerous" rebellions just in his time with the Deathwatch Gurads. It is not limited to back stabbing among the ruling class in the slightest. All of that that is before we even touch on the whole personnel freedoms side of things. The idea is preposterous to say the least.

 

I meant the system which ensures stability while taking away individual rights is better than the system which leads to various bloody conflicts while giving only a little more rights to the people.

Forgot about all the rebellions in the Seanchan being mentioned in the text. I hang my head in shame and retract my comment.

 

In theory you would be correct but even without all the rebellions in Seanchan, Andor doesn't fit the definition of "giving only a little more rights to the people" in comparison. Not even close.

 

Ok, maybe the Seanchan in not a good example. Still,I concentrated on one issue of the choice of the monarch and it is undeniable that in this one matter, the commoners in Andor and in Seanchan have the same amount of influence -zero.

 

That's true that generally it is much better in Andor than in Seanchan. I just think we should look beyond RJ's description of people speaking their own mind etc. and see the cold fact that in Andor as everywhere else in Randland the social division was very strong. Elayne and her noble opponents were fighing for the throne, the commoners were bleeding.

[Suttree]

 

Well, perhaps the sex itself was her way of giving thanks.

 

Or by making him High Lord above all others while having the 2Rs be tax exempt in perpetuity. Think it goes without saying now that she knows a forsaken held power she realizes the debt Andor owes Rand for what he did.

 

She did not do that to thank Rand but as a excuse to give 2R what they wanted..it is not like she was thinking about it before Perrin came to see her.

 

I do not think there is even a PoV from her thanking Rand for it..but plenty with her hissy fit "how dare he give me the throne" tone

 

Well in the very scene where they make the decision she says it flat out.

 

ToM

"The noble Houses of Andor will accept this, since the Two Rivers is where Rand came from, and Andor does owe him a debt.

[Mr Ares]

 

He would find it much harder to take them on one by one if they were linked. They can't see his weaves, but he can't see theirs either. For Elayne alone it might be too hard a fight, but if he is having to take on, say, two links of two, he is outnumbered and outgunned. They're probably stronger than him as well, and he would find it hard to win a fight. He's either run or die in all likelihood.

 

First of all, Rand was able to sense Rahvin's weaves and go to him through the gateway. Before that, Rahvin was comfortably controlling the battle from remote location and doing quite well. The supergirls would not even be able to sense Rahvin - and they would be detected and hit by the wards he had in Caemlyn. Were they even able to weave gateways at the time?

Rand couldn't weave a Gateway when he went to Caemlyn. He learnt. The girls can learn as well. Rahvin dropped a few lightning bolts on them, killed Mat, Asmo and Avi and then Rand put up a shield before he Travelled into the throneroom. Which part of that is beyond the girls? You attempt to present a difficult fight as an impossible one. Based on nothing. Also, it's hard to say Rahvin was "comofrtably controlling tha battle" given how little time there was between arrival and skipping straight into the throneroom. It's also hard to argue that others really played a huge part in holding up Rahvin's army - it was a running battle throughout the palace (and later T'a'r) between two channelers. No-one was likely to intervene, even if Rand didn't have help Rahvin's army would have struggled to come and support him, andonce they got to T'a'r any armies the other had was rendered moot. What swung the battle was Nynaeve hitting Rahvin from behind. That can happen just as easily with the three girls fighting Rahvin. He has some advantages, but he had those over Rand as well. He still lost. Rand won, the girls could have won as well.

 

 

I think it was much more likely Rand would have hardly any problems with most of Andorans had he decided to alter Andor's traditions and take the throne or give it to somebody, than that Elayne or Morgase would be able to free Andor from Rahvin's grip. Rand needed a lot of luck to do it, while Morgase and Elayne simply did not have adequate resources, both on channeling and military fronts.

 

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

I think it is beyond doubt that a direct White Tower military intervention in Andor would spark the reaction much worse than anything Rand could have triggered by his alleged disrespect for Andor's independence.

Aes Sedai dethroning a legitimate ruler is bad. Even meddling to the extent of taking down a usurper is something that would be seen as not good. But taking down a Chosen? Well, isn't that precisely the sort of thing that the AS should be doing?

 

Rand took out Rahvin and Suttree made a god job of showing the distrust he received in consideration from the Andorans. If the Aes Sedai were to intervene - with almost everybody already convinced they crave control and power - it would be much worse. Moreover, it is very possible most people simply wouldn't believe Gaebril was Rahvin - they would suspect some Aes Sedai plot. In addition, the Aes Sedai themselves might have trouble in acknowledging the Forsaken are loose and also with publicizing the fact.

Well, there is a difference between crazy male channeler says something and AS who cannot lie says something. Say "Gaebril was the Forsaken Rahvin" and it's hard to find a loophole the AS might be exploiting. Handled badly it could cause all manner of problems, but handled well it needn't.

 

It seems to me at that moment of the books the Dark One was already taking the Forsaken in line.

Doesn't seem like that to me.

 

1. I don't think any potential Andoran rebels have the skills, the soldiers and the right battleground to wage a guerilla compaign. Ituralde was a great captain with seasoned soldiers, the terrain was different, the enemy was different. Aiel and Asha'man has huge mobility and firepower advantage, it is counterproductive to use guerilla tactics against enemy who is more mobile and better commanded and more efficient in such type of war than your own forces.

The Andorans have the biggest advantage - this is their country. They know it better than anyone, and any rebels can blend in with the native population, because they are the native population. There are sufficient experienced soldiers in Andor to train any potential rebels. What effective control can Rand exercise if the moment his back is turned, every town, village and city in the country ignores him, and every time he marches in no rebels are to be found? Rand could very easily find himself with zero effective control of the country, and his soldiers being picked off in ones and twos every time they go on patrol. Unless he's willing to start massacring civilians, he's not going to win any time soon. How are hordes of Aiel going to comabat that?

 

If that was the case, then every occupied country would be able to wage a succesful guerilla compaign against the invader. History shows it is not the case. You can't fight a guerilla compaign against the enemy who is much more mobile than you in addition to his superior firepower, who is much better at fighting in different kinds of terrain, be it mountains or forests. Your scenario ignores the fact that the rebels would not be able to use efficient "hit and run" tactics against the foes who would simply run them down without any problem. To blend with the natives, you need time and speed advantage they don't have. What's more, the main part of Andor -areas around Caemlyn etc., discounting Two Rivers or Mountains of Mist, seems to be a pretty heavily populated, flat country with highly developed agriculture and strong river trade. The guerilla fighters would not have where to hide.

You didn't really address my point. What does the countryside have to do with it when you're picking off soldiers in the towns and cities? How can you run the foe down when the handful of you there are just got knifed? And when they disappear into the crowds? How are the Aiel to hide when they're a head taller than everyone else? They don't all needto to rise. They just need to ignore Rand and he has no effective control.

 

They might be reluctant to slaughter their countrymen in large, but some rebelling nobles -no problem.

Rebelling commoners?

 

Not sure how patriotic people of Andor are...the greater 2 Rivers area wanted to carve their own kingdom out.

Four villages and a few farms. Not hugely compelling.

[Mr Ares]

If one group has travelling like the Ashaman...just a small group say 10 of them can be used to assassinate every single noble in Andor who rises against Rand. There can be no rebellion if there are no leaders.

And no one in their right mind will take on chaneelers..which is why the BT stays in Andor. No one can do anything about it.

Ituralde took on channelers. Is he not in his right mind? (I suppose that chaneelers might be more dangerous than mere channelers, but I don't of any chaneelers.) And assassinating every noble in the Kingdom does you no good if the commoners are rebelling, and find their own leaders. Commoners can rebel, remember, they don't ned nobles to lead them. So will you kill every commoner who rises against Rand? How can you be sure you've got them all? Best to make sure - kill everyone in Andor.

Ah..sarcasm.

 

Ituralde won one big battle against "channelers" which also decimated his own forces and he was dead in the water till Rand came. Moreover he could see damane and prepare for them..Ash'aman can remove their coat and melt into the population.

 

As for the assassination strategy..kill the leaders and every revolt will fizzle out. Revolts are led by leaders.Cut all the leaders down and the people will go back to their lives. That is how every nation that was conquered in the history of the world was subdued.

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

 

While they would have the advantage in strength, Rahvin would have the advantage in skill, experience, and knowledge. And they don't even know how to defend against his weaves.

Rahvin had the advantage of skill, experience, knowledge and quite possibly strength as well when he fought Rand. Rand won. This fight is not unwinnable. He learnt how to Travel in mid-battle. He figured out how to cut Lanfear's weaves with little information. The girls can learn to combat his weaves. It might be that only by taking him completely by surprise could they win. But that's what Rand needed to do to win. He did it. They can do it too.

 

They didn't have to flee to the BT, they weren't shunned or rejected. Most of them are learners. And even so, they will not necessarily be so keen to turn their backs on their country and slaughter their countrymen.

 

Doesn't mean they will agree with the official stance when push comes to shove and their families, friends and neighbours are in the firing line.

 

I get the impression that insubordination is a pretty dangerous move in the BT. If they refuse to do what they're told, it could go as far as executions. The Ashaman were made to be weapons. I doubt there would be many protest against fighting a rebellion, whether it's in their own country or not.

 

Now slaughtering people they might care less for. I remember one of the Ashaman with Logain saying he didn't care for "the butcher's yard", and that while he does what he's told, he doesn't have to like it. I don't how heartless they can be, but it's hardly unheard of in history for the police or the army to open fire on it's own civilians.

It's also not unprecedented for people to refuse such orders to shoot. What if some Asha'man decide to join the rebellion?

 

 

So Elayne spoke to everyone in every settlement she passed through on her way to Caemlyn?

You don't have to speak to everyone to get an idea of the prevailing sentiment. Also, if every comment you hear is anti-Rand, that should tell you something.

 

No. I'm pointing out the Sea Folk can be gained either way.

 

Except that they cannot,

They were. Rand got the Sea Folk's loyalty before the jailbreak. True, he doesn't get all the Sea Folk, only those who are free. That's true regardless. If a bunch of them are killed trying to escape, there are fewer channelers for TG. Fewer Sea Folk, fewer Damane. It hurts the Light. Frankly, I'm bored with you consistently dodging the point and talking rubbish. It smacks of trolling. I'm not prepared to talk with you any longer as you're not interested in debating in good faith.

[MasterAblar]

Rand couldn't weave a Gateway when he went to Caemlyn. He learnt. The girls can learn as well. Rahvin dropped a few lightning bolts on them, killed Mat, Asmo and Avi and then Rand put up a shield before he Travelled into the throneroom. Which part of that is beyond the girls? You attempt to present a difficult fight as an impossible one. Based on nothing. Also, it's hard to say Rahvin was "comofrtably controlling tha battle" given how little time there was between arrival and skipping straight into the throneroom. It's also hard to argue that others really played a huge part in holding up Rahvin's army - it was a running battle throughout the palace (and later T'a'r) between two channelers. No-one was likely to intervene, even if Rand didn't have help Rahvin's army would have struggled to come and support him, andonce they got to T'a'r any armies the other had was rendered moot. What swung the battle was Nynaeve hitting Rahvin from behind. That can happen just as easily with the three girls fighting Rahvin. He has some advantages, but he had those over Rand as well. He still lost. Rand won, the girls could have won as well.

 

Rahvin had the advantage of skill, experience, knowledge and quite possibly strength as well when he fought Rand. Rand won. This fight is not unwinnable. He learnt how to Travel in mid-battle. He figured out how to cut Lanfear's weaves with little information. The girls can learn to combat his weaves. It might be that only by taking him completely by surprise could they win. But that's what Rand needed to do to win. He did it. They can do it too.

 

You say Rand figured out or learned how to travel and cut Lanfear's weaves. But that's not true, he didn't have any thought process on how he needed to do it. He went from not knowing to knowing how to do it in an instant, simply because the knowledge came straight from LTT. In fact in a lot of Rand's battles, he mentions doing things instinctively as if he'd known how to do them all along. The girls can't do that. They won't just suddenly know how to do something. Aviendha once travelled by instinct, but she couldn't even remenber how she did it. It was purely out of panic that she managed to do it. LTT is probably what allows Rand to even survive as long as he does against the Forsaken. Even if he is incredibly talented (and being LTT reborn, he probably is), he is greatly lacking in training. He often fights on instinct, which works only because his instinct is partly LTT.

 

Rand took Rahvin by surprise, but Rahvin had time enough to recover. Travelling right into the throne room like Rand did, would lead to instant death for the girls. They might be able to defend against the lighting that he throws from far away (Aviendha's wasn't), but if he strikes at them directly then they have no chance of surviving, simply because they can not defend against his weaves (which is the advantage that Rahvin did not have over Rand), and they won't miraculously learn how in an instant. They wouldn't just need to take him by surprise, they would have to kill him before he has the chance to react. And I don't see how they can manage to get within striking distance of Rahvin, without him knowing.

 

This would be the very first time the girls took on a male channeller head on. If they don't know how to fight one, then they won't be able to defeat him, short of killing him by suprise before he has time to react.

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

But would the commoners rebel, without the nobles to provide leadership? And even if they do, they won't be very organised. With the draught going on in LoC, they might decide that they don't give a damn who sits on the throne, at least for the time being.

 

It's also not unprecedented for people to refuse such orders to shoot. What if some Asha'man decide to join the rebellion?

 

It's hard to judge how attached the Ashaman are to the countries they come from. Personally, I feel that the hellish training they recieve must pretty much beat that out of them. Being part of a group that is hated by everyone has to help as well. That said if there really was a risk of Ashaman refusing to follow orders, then I imagine they wouldn't be put on the job to begin with. And if any actually rebel, well, others have before as well. That's what the tree is for.

I rather doubt Rand would resort to mass executions in the first place.

 

You didn't really address my point. What does the countryside have to do with it when you're picking off soldiers in the towns and cities? How can you run the foe down when the handful of you there are just got knifed? And when they disappear into the crowds? How are the Aiel to hide when they're a head taller than everyone else? They don't all need to rise. They just need to ignore Rand and he has no effective control.

 

I think it sort of depends on what Rand's objective is in seizing the throne for himself (or for another andoran noble). If he's trying to rule the nation, then yes he's going to have a hard time imposing himself on everyone. But if he's just trying to make sure there isn't a civil war between the nobles when Tarmon Gaidon comes along, then he doens't need to control the whole country, every little town and village out there. What does he care what everyone thinks of him? If the people ignore him, what does he care as long as they don't fight each other, or kill his men? As long as he controls Caemlyn, then there is no problem. Actually all he needs to control is the palace, since that's where the throne is. If the country is at peace, then he doesn't need to send out his soldiers.

[XXX]

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

 

How difficult is to extract information from people when you have the OP at your disposal?

 

Hit and run strikes cannot be conducted on units who are more mobile than you..with travelling Rand's units will always be more mobile than anything any rebel can muster up.

[Eht Slat Meit]

They were. Rand got the Sea Folk's loyalty before the jailbreak. True, he doesn't get all the Sea Folk, only those who are free. That's true regardless. If a bunch of them are killed trying to escape, there are fewer channelers for TG. Fewer Sea Folk, fewer Damane. It hurts the Light.

 

As I recall, the terms of the Coramoor's bargain do not grant him any military usage of the Sea Folk. Feel free to correct me with details if I'm wrong.

 

Frankly, I'm bored with you consistently dodging the point and talking rubbish. It smacks of trolling. I'm not prepared to talk with you any longer as you're not interested in debating in good faith.

 

Your unwillingness to acknowledge the merit of my points does not make what I write rubbish or trolling. You are the one bringing down the tone of this debate by making unwarranted accusations and snide personal attacks in the form of insinuations like this. If you cannot keep your tone reasonable, then YOU are the one failing to deal in good faith. Correct your own failures before you try to call me out on what you perceive as mine.

 

If you want to discuss this reasonably, then do so, and lay off the personal attacks. The choice is yours, and no, I'm not going to phrase that as a polite request like you suggested in your little power play, because as I understand it, I don't have to request that you follow the rules of the forums for you to be expected to do so.

 

Back to the topic at hand, addressing your point, Mat has the Sea Folk as a military asset, something that Rand did not already possess, and they are more effective to Mat personally then as a secondary slave asset via the Seanchan.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Rand couldn't weave a Gateway when he went to Caemlyn. He learnt. The girls can learn as well. Rahvin dropped a few lightning bolts on them, killed Mat, Asmo and Avi and then Rand put up a shield before he Travelled into the throneroom. Which part of that is beyond the girls? You attempt to present a difficult fight as an impossible one. Based on nothing. Also, it's hard to say Rahvin was "comofrtably controlling tha battle" given how little time there was between arrival and skipping straight into the throneroom. It's also hard to argue that others really played a huge part in holding up Rahvin's army - it was a running battle throughout the palace (and later T'a'r) between two channelers. No-one was likely to intervene, even if Rand didn't have help Rahvin's army would have struggled to come and support him, andonce they got to T'a'r any armies the other had was rendered moot. What swung the battle was Nynaeve hitting Rahvin from behind. That can happen just as easily with the three girls fighting Rahvin. He has some advantages, but he had those over Rand as well. He still lost. Rand won, the girls could have won as well.

 

Rahvin had the advantage of skill, experience, knowledge and quite possibly strength as well when he fought Rand. Rand won. This fight is not unwinnable. He learnt how to Travel in mid-battle. He figured out how to cut Lanfear's weaves with little information. The girls can learn to combat his weaves. It might be that only by taking him completely by surprise could they win. But that's what Rand needed to do to win. He did it. They can do it too.

 

You say Rand figured out or learned how to travel and cut Lanfear's weaves. But that's not true, he didn't have any thought process on how he needed to do it. He went from not knowing to knowing how to do it in an instant, simply because the knowledge came straight from LTT. In fact in a lot of Rand's battles, he mentions doing things instinctively as if he'd known how to do them all along. The girls can't do that. They won't just suddenly know how to do something. Aviendha once travelled by instinct, but she couldn't even remenber how she did it. It was purely out of panic that she managed to do it. LTT is probably what allows Rand to even survive as long as he does against the Forsaken. Even if he is incredibly talented (and being LTT reborn, he probably is), he is greatly lacking in training. He often fights on instinct, which works only because his instinct is partly LTT.

 

Rand took Rahvin by surprise, but Rahvin had time enough to recover. Travelling right into the throne room like Rand did, would lead to instant death for the girls. They might be able to defend against the lighting that he throws from far away (Aviendha's wasn't), but if he strikes at them directly then they have no chance of surviving, simply because they can not defend against his weaves (which is the advantage that Rahvin did not have over Rand), and they won't miraculously learn how in an instant. They wouldn't just need to take him by surprise, they would have to kill him before he has the chance to react. And I don't see how they can manage to get within striking distance of Rahvin, without him knowing.

 

This would be the very first time the girls took on a male channeller head on. If they don't know how to fight one, then they won't be able to defeat him, short of killing him by suprise before he has time to react.

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

But would the commoners rebel, without the nobles to provide leadership? And even if they do, they won't be very organised. With the draught going on in LoC, they might decide that they don't give a damn who sits on the throne, at least for the time being.

 

It's also not unprecedented for people to refuse such orders to shoot. What if some Asha'man decide to join the rebellion?

 

It's hard to judge how attached the Ashaman are to the countries they come from. Personally, I feel that the hellish training they recieve must pretty much beat that out of them. Being part of a group that is hated by everyone has to help as well. That said if there really was a risk of Ashaman refusing to follow orders, then I imagine they wouldn't be put on the job to begin with. And if any actually rebel, well, others have before as well. That's what the tree is for.

I rather doubt Rand would resort to mass executions in the first place.

 

You didn't really address my point. What does the countryside have to do with it when you're picking off soldiers in the towns and cities? How can you run the foe down when the handful of you there are just got knifed? And when they disappear into the crowds? How are the Aiel to hide when they're a head taller than everyone else? They don't all need to rise. They just need to ignore Rand and he has no effective control.

 

I think it sort of depends on what Rand's objective is in seizing the throne for himself (or for another andoran noble). If he's trying to rule the nation, then yes he's going to have a hard time imposing himself on everyone. But if he's just trying to make sure there isn't a civil war between the nobles when Tarmon Gaidon comes along, then he doens't need to control the whole country, every little town and village out there. What does he care what everyone thinks of him? If the people ignore him, what does he care as long as they don't fight each other, or kill his men? As long as he controls Caemlyn, then there is no problem. Actually all he needs to control is the palace, since that's where the throne is. If the country is at peace, then he doesn't need to send out his soldiers.

 

 

Precisely. Master Ablar explained it much better than I could have.

 

Mr Ares, I find it pretty confusing that you seem to equate the Supergirls' battle channeling skills with Rand's. I find it also a little bit suspect, because for me the difference is huge and obvious, for everyone to see- and certainly for such a careful reader as you are. Are you playing devil's advocate just for the fun of it?

 

For me it is obvious and hardly worth any meaningful discussion that Rand is a much more skilled/efficient (taking into account ta'veren effects which aren't skills as such) battle channeler than any of the Supergirls. I'm not saying that any of the things he did was were beyond the Supergirls's abilities, but taken as a whole, in the time the battle took place and against Rahvin - the Supergirls' would have no chance. Four main factors why:

1. Rand had at the time much more battle experience (and also specifically against the Forsaken) than any of the girls.

2. LTT memories - additional huge pool of experiences, clicking in when needed.

3. Ta'veren.

4. Rand was much stronger in the Power.

 

The girls have none of these advantages. They also would have to deal with specific disadvantages Rand didn't:

1. Lack of experience/knowledge how to fight a male channeler and specifically, how to counter his weaves.

2. Inablity to sense Rahvin and therefore to take the fight to his hiding hole.

3. Inability to weave a gateway.

4. Lack of sufficient supporting force, forcing them to deal with other dangers beside Rahvin.

[ElusiveAthena]

I think Rand's biggest advantage is Lews Therin, but in re-reading FoH, I didn't see how the girls might not together have been able to defeat Rahvin. Yes, they aren't as strong in the power as Rand - but then each of them are more strong than most Aes Sedai - and Nynaeve was controlling Moghedien. Plus Rahvin likely would have used different attacks against them, seeing as he was "Lord Gaebril" and he had a thing about women - so he wouldn't have tried using balefire on them like he did Rand. He would have probably tried using Compulsion first, even seeing Moghedien, he would probably have just felt contempt for Moghedien rather than fear of Nynaeve. Being the misogynist he was, I think it's quite possible he would have underestimated them, especially if he saw ELayne first (looking so like Morgase as she does). I think all the girls are smart (to greater or lesser extents - Nynaeve is probably the most cunning - that a'dam trick was brilliant - and ELayne is shown to be skilled at manipulating the Tel'aran'rhiod in LoC) so I don't think it's impossible to contemplate their victory. Rahvin wouldn't have felt the need to flee from them as he did from Rand, bacause after all, they aren't The Dragon Reborn, and Rahvin's ego was such that he would have thought he wouldn't need to flee. So they wouldn't have needed to Travel. Now, they wouldn't be able to counter Rahvin's weaves or sense them, but then, as I said earlier, Rahvin would have probably tried Compulsion first and Morgase showed that it's possible to counter that with willpower. And also the fact they were female meant that although Rahvin would feel a "tingling" in his arms when one channeled, he wouldn't be able to see their weaves either. And if they didn't all attack at once - if he focused on one or two to the exclusion of all else (which can happen - as shown with Lanfear) then Avienndha could have snuck up behind him with a spear and stabbed him. It's possible. Implausible perhaps, but then a lot of the things that happen in WoT are implausible, but not unbelievable.

[David Selig]

If the plot requires it, our guys easily beat those who are supposed to be stronger, more skilful and experienced than them all the time. So of course the Supergirls could've beaten Rahvin. All of them plus Moggy against him all alone is a far likely win than Nynaeve against Moggy.

[Cybertrolloc]

Reread the fight and look for WoG on some aspects of it (these are actually interesting and worth tracking down).

[ElusiveAthena]

I just did, and I stand by my argument.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Rand's biggest advantage is Lews Therin, but in re-reading FoH, I didn't see how the girls might not together have been able to defeat Rahvin. Yes, they aren't as strong in the power as Rand - but then each of them are more strong than most Aes Sedai - and Nynaeve was controlling Moghedien. Plus Rahvin likely would have used different attacks against them, seeing as he was "Lord Gaebril" and he had a thing about women - so he wouldn't have tried using balefire on them like he did Rand. He would have probably tried using Compulsion first, even seeing Moghedien, he would probably have just felt contempt for Moghedien rather than fear of Nynaeve. Being the misogynist he was, I think it's quite possible he would have underestimated them, especially if he saw ELayne first (looking so like Morgase as she does). I think all the girls are smart (to greater or lesser extents - Nynaeve is probably the most cunning - that a'dam trick was brilliant - and ELayne is shown to be skilled at manipulating the Tel'aran'rhiod in LoC) so I don't think it's impossible to contemplate their victory. Rahvin wouldn't have felt the need to flee from them as he did from Rand, bacause after all, they aren't The Dragon Reborn, and Rahvin's ego was such that he would have thought he wouldn't need to flee. So they wouldn't have needed to Travel. Now, they wouldn't be able to counter Rahvin's weaves or sense them, but then, as I said earlier, Rahvin would have probably tried Compulsion first and Morgase showed that it's possible to counter that with willpower. And also the fact they were female meant that although Rahvin would feel a "tingling" in his arms when one channeled, he wouldn't be able to see their weaves either. And if they didn't all attack at once - if he focused on one or two to the exclusion of all else (which can happen - as shown with Lanfear) then Avienndha could have snuck up behind him with a spear and stabbed him. It's possible. Implausible perhaps, but then a lot of the things that happen in WoT are implausible, but not unbelievable.

 

Rand as of VoG is now in a league of his own. He has the memories and power of a 400 year old legend who was the best in his Age (overall, of course). He literally has the power to rival the DO in the pattern. (not in brute force per se, but he is the only one that can defeat the DO/seal him out of the pattern.) So it is impossible now to compare them, and unfair to the Wondergirls, since they are pretty good, its just comparing a chihuahua to a German Sheppard. Two different leagues. Not aimed specifically at your post, just in general.

 

relating more directly to the quoted post, I think its perfectly reasonable..reasoning. The wondergirls could definitely have defeated Rahvin, anything is possible, and, as we have seen time and time again, the Chosen are hardly all they are cracked up to be. (except, of course, Demandred )

Anyway, point being, the reasoning you outlined is perfectly valid, and I could see it as something RJ would have written really. One of the biggest things about the forsaken is their arrogance, and it is constantly their downfall.

 

Chances are, Rahvin, on paper, would carve them up like a christmas ham, but there would be plenty of tactics they could have used to win. I mean, if the the wondergirls are deemed unfit to win against Rahvin in any way, why Rand would be dead by now. I mean, Rand v Ishamael and really ANYONE in the first 3 books would be impossible.

[Guest PiotrekS]

If the plot requires it, our guys easily beat those who are supposed to be stronger, more skilful and experienced than them all the time. So of course the Supergirls could've beaten Rahvin. All of them plus Moggy against him all alone is a far likely win than Nynaeve against Moggy.

 

Ok, the plot could justify everything. Still, Rand has a built-in justification for some plot armour, i.e. ta'veren and LTT. The supergilrs have none. Though that's true, the Forsaken seem to be a failure any time they actually confront any of the main heroes, with the sole exception of Rahvin who could have beaten Rand if not for some really bad luck.