Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[Kahsm]

I find it very annoying that she is somehow the person most invested in the White Tower even though she only saw the place for the first time fairly recently and has been out adventuring most of the time since.

I think she's invested in the her idea of Aes Sedai, which, for most of us sadly, does not match the status quo. Which is why she's working to change things. I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

The whole "I'm able to ignore pain because what is happening to the tower is soooo much more painful" idea would work for Siuan or many other Aes Sedai, but for one of the newest ones [...] to be so overwhelmed by the changes in a place they know nearly nothing about is ridiculous.

Seanchan beat her, Black Ajah beat her, Aiel ran her raged and beat her, Elaida had her beaten... It's fairly easy to see how being beaten becomes much more commonplace for her, nothing to worry so much about when the tower is tearing apart around her. Egwene's main goal, as stated from almost the day she became Amyrlin is to tie all female channelers to the white tower, and under Elaida (through Alviarin's manipulations) the tower was fracturing more and more, mainly along ajah lines. That is exactly counter to what Egwene was working towards. And given that you've already noted how passionate she would be, I don't see how crazy it is that someone who's probably used to being beaten would find the fracturing more torturous.

 

(and one who is only able to even claim the title by some serious Johnny Cochrane-level legal interpretation)

If you mean by what the law says, then yes. Even Elaida wasn't scandalized over it, she was just like "Yep! It doesn't say anything about needing to be Aes Sedai."

 

I also find it absurd that actual Aes Sedai who are much older and more experienced coming to her for advice about things like how to get back in good graces with their Ajah or deal with a down Warder? What in Egwene's life as a country child would ever give her a frame of reference for these things that women who are probably over 100 years old and have lived with Warders and been part of Ajahs for a long time just can't figure out? It seems that to make her fit as the Amyrlin, the rest of the Aes Sedai as a whole had to be repackaged as a group of mostly helpless idiots who can barely tie their own shoes without her there to lead them.

Just like any non-main character around any main character. But for most of it, we saw Siuan swearing that she was going to make Egwene the greatest Amyrlin. And you seem to accept Siuan as capable. So a lot of what Egwene knows would come form Siuan.

 

How then did they manage to be the most crafty/powerful/manipulative organization in the world, especially since everyone knew they couldn't use the one power as a weapon thus removing them as a physical threat?

Not using the power as a weapon is a personal sacrifice they made so that they COULD be crafty/powerful/manipulative. If the world turned against them anyway, there'd be no reason to swear the oaths. Also I think most people mistrust the oath anyway. As well they should, since a tool for "punishment" is clearly not considered "weapon".

 

Other annoying characters include Perrin, with his constant insistence that he is a blacksmith and single minded pursuit of Faile (which would have been much less annoying had it covered many less pages) Perrin has really annoyed me since she entered the books. He is now starting to improve and be readable again, although I'm waiting until after the last book to declare his character redeemed. Gawyn is a ridiculous idiot who is lucky he is miraculously good at fighting (three super assassins with special ter'angreal at one time? please...) or he would be long dead since he can barely put two thoughts together before rushing off to do something crazy. Elayne is probably the most useless of all the main characters, since her plotline became centered around basically shoring up her own power rather than doing anything particularly productive toward the last battle (oh and getting herself captured and taking stupid risks).

I agree on Perrin. Gawyn listens to his heart WAY more than his head (like a anti-Galad, on purpose I'm sure). I'm in different about Elayne. I'm more annoyed by how her and Rand could possibly be a couple given the seconds they've actually spent together relative to Rand/Min and Rand/Ahvi.

 

The character I have had the most improved opinion of is Nynaeve. She started as being pretty much just a bully who always tried to get her way by being so unpleasant that people just gave in, but I think now if I were picking teams she would be my second choice (Rand first obviously, with all his new badass-ness after VoG). Also a big fan of Moiraine, she made the Aes Sedai mysterious and cool before most of the others ruined it. I like Mat, but I agree with whoever above noted that he has become too slapstick (I think that happens when a characters role is humorous. Not exactly the same, but when Han Solo's role was taken by Jar Jar Binks in the new trilogy I felt the same about that). Pretty much most of the other characters I like, surprisingly I started to like Galad once he got a serious plotline.

You know the Aes Sedai are the same as they were in book 1 right? You just have more information. Well that kinda answers your earlier question about how they were powerful/manipulative, because the people in the world don't know the embarrassing/incompetent parts, just like us in book 1.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Does the freeing of the Sea Folk channelers help with TG at all?

 

Absolutely. In the hands of the Seanchan, those few channelers are limited solely to those that can be trained in time (TG isn't waiting for the Seanchan), and their ranks are limited only to those that were taken by the Seanchan. By being freed, these Windfinders have incurred a debt that can only be repaid with real service by everyone involved. That's not a small thing - all dealings with the Seafolk that haven't involved the interference of ta'veren have ended badly for the negotiators.

 

And Elayne saying yes is still her production facilities turning a dream into a reality (and it was Aludra's dream more than it was Mat's - credit should thus go to her first and foremost.

 

Absolutely not. Elayne plays no role in that except that of a Known Quantity that can be trusted even if disliked, a relationship that has been built over the course of those "books where nobody accomplished a hell of a lot". These aren't a pair of star-eyed inventors from Rand's academy looking to realize their dreams - Aludra already understood the basic workings of what was needed, Mat gave them design and function; neither of these roles can be fulfilled by anyone else. Point - nobody else can be in Mat's position because he has his ta'veren nature to thank for most of his role in the matter.

 

Any national leader with resources can fulfill Elayne's role. Not that she deserves no credit, but quite frankly after that demonstration... she'd have to be a complete raging moron NOT to see the power of weapons of devastation that can kill like only channelers could before. Any leader would have jumped at the opportunity and remember that Mat can get access to any of them via Rand. So Elayne gets the benefit of being trustworthy and providing facilities. She didn't revolutionize the world. To give credit where it's due, the one who deserves the first and foremost credit is Aludra. Mat is tied to that but secondary, and Elayne? No way.

 

In short, he didn't need to give it to Andor. He could have gone to Darlin in Tear, Steppin in Illian or any of Rand's allies. Why choose Elayne? Trust. Trust that she will keep that information from spreading before TG and unleashing it on the rest of the world. Theoretically speaking, the -best- move should have been to give all of Rand's allies this information, but with the world in its current state, darkfriends and Black Ajah everwhere, it's not.

 

Also, I note you don't try to defend your position of Elayne being reckless and stupid.

 

He'd probably be better served arguing that in the threads that statement originated from, no? I can see that argument tripling the size of a single post, all by itself.

 

 

both happened in book 13, which would be after the period of no-one accomplishing a hell of a lot.

 

I'm not going to go into this too deeply, but to point - take a look at Mat Cauthon's entry in encyclopaedia wot, covering that specific period of the books, and tell me if you think it doesn't reflect a certain key world-shaking decision that Mat is going to have to make very soon. That being the future of Aes Sedai in the world now, and the Age(s) yet to come. There was a lot more going on there than Mat simply getting married and saving a few random channeling womenfolk. Without that build, any world-shaking decisions about the future of the Aes Sedai will look flip and whimsical, an embarassing throwback to his Two Rivers and SL-tainted views of the AS as untrustworthy creatures who are better avoided (and perhaps leashed). He's been given a world-shift in his insight, and such a decision will be much harder and more compelling to make.

 

You don't have to have big flashy events to tell a great story, and Mat's story over the course of those books has been marked by smaller flashy events designed to build towards -his- key moment, the one where HE is the one who sets in motion the events that will secure the Seanchan to Rand... something he desperately needs in order to win.

[David Selig]

Aludra already understood the basic workings of what was needed, Mat gave them design and function; neither of these roles can be fulfilled by anyone else.

I thought Aludra did all the work on inventing the Dragons, including design and function. All Mat did was get her a Queen who can provide the resources needed for building it.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Aludra already understood the basic workings of what was needed, Mat gave them design and function; neither of these roles can be fulfilled by anyone else.

I thought Aludra did all the work on inventing the Dragons, including design and function. All Mat did was get her a Queen who can provide the resources needed for building it.

 

Yeah, that was poorly written and really not reflective of Mat's role. What he did was give her inventions/developments scope and vision that prevented them from simply being a curiosity of the Age doomed to obscurity when taken out by some damane in a poorly planned attack.

[Mooka]

Aes Sedai - Wielders of the One Power. Since the Time of Madness, all surviving Aes Sedai are women. Widely distrusted and feared, even hated, they are blamed by many for the Breaking of the World, and are thought to meddle in the affairs of nations. At the same time, few rulers will be without an Aes Sedai adviser, even in lands where the existence of such a connection must be kept secret.

...save Faile. She has a smaller role then the others though.

[LeeM.Erickson]

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

 

How dare he maintain order in the city, and keep the nobles in line, instead of letting a power vacuum lead to another Succession that would ultimately have ended with a non-Trakand on the throne.

 

She seems way more upset about the fact that he would dare give her the city that is rightfully hers, without stopping to realize if he didn't do that there wouldn't BE a city left, either for him to give or her to take.

 

Oh, and he killed the Forsaken that was plowing your mom.

[David Selig]

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

She never had a problem with Rand holding Caemlyn. That's different from giving her the throne.

 

She seems way more upset about the fact that he would dare give her the city that is rightfully hers, without stopping to realize if he didn't do that there wouldn't BE a city left, either for him to give or her to take.

What? Why? Let's say Rand had pulled out of Caemlyn after killing Rahvin, the city would still have been thee. Even Rahvin had no reason to destroy the city.

[Eht Slat Meit]

What? Why? Let's say Rand had pulled out of Caemlyn after killing Rahvin, the city would still have been thee. Even Rahvin had no reason to destroy the city.

 

Had Rand pulled out, what would have kept Caemlyn (and Andor) from imploding into chaos like every other nation without leadership? The good will of the nobility towards each other? The love of the people for their queen? Common sense from the refugees? Sounds like a breeding ground for a multi-front civil war for the throne, with no support of a people who have been completely disenfranchised by their former Forsaken-addled queen. Being the homeland of most of the primary heroes in this series doesn't give it exemption from the things that have brought other equally powerful nations to their knees. Elayne doesn't actually take up any kind of leadership till about three books after Rand terminates Rahvin. I'm not sure exactly what that translates into in time, but a month of zero leadership and a power vaccuum is more than enough to bring a country down.

[David Selig]

I am not saying Rand should've pulled out, he did the right thing, but Caemlyn would've remained in place anyway. None of the claimants for the throne was willing to destroy or even damaged it seriously in a civil war.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I am not saying Rand should've pulled out, he did the right thing, but Caemlyn would've remained in place anyway. Non of the claimants for the throne was willing to destroy or even damaged it seriously in a civil war.

 

What people want is often overbalanced by what they feel they have to do. All it takes is one aggressive claimant to try and force their way onto the throne to set things in motion. RJ might not be as brutal as Martin, downright civil in comparison in fact, but even he acknowledges the destructive power of the "game of thrones". People die, nations burn.

[aross]

The discussion is going in an interesting direction for me, basically asserting that a character is good or bad (or in-between) based upon purpose.

 

Do they have a purpose? What is it? Does that purpose affect themselves only? or a few? or many? or nations? the world?

 

Upon which relationships hinge this purpose? Do they share their task with others? Is there a sense of building to it? doing it? waiting for it? passing time?

 

If you look at the characters in this way, some are seen in a more charitable light. Some harsher.

 

Rand certainly has been building to something the whole way, and performing tasks as he has gone. With the exception of a few of the middle episodes, he really has driven this story. So maybe he gets some love.

 

 

Mat has stagnated at times, but he affects a wider group than anyone except Rand. The Band (obviously), The Seanchan, the Sea Folk, Andor (through Elayne), the Aes Sedai (strangely enough), and others indirectly. His relationships promise more entertainment, climax, and resolution than any character's I think. For instance:

 

What happens when he and Tuon are reunited? Will it be hilarious, romantic, grim, touch-and-go, honest, deceptive, etc, etc, etc. Is he the "Great Captain" that will lead the Seanchan to battle? Is he the "Great Captain" that will lead ALL of the armies?

 

What happens when the Sea Folk recognize him? Will he run into Nestelle din Sakura South Star? Will she "remember" him as she promised? I've always figured that to be a planted bit. I believe they will meet again.

 

What happens when Mat runs into Morgase and Tallanvor? Will they remember Thom Grinwell? Will they believe that earnest Thom Grinwell is the same man that Elayne has chosen to lead Andor to war? And that they are friends, no less?

 

Is Mat done with Moiraine and Thom Merrilyn?

 

Will Teslyn return to the Band? Will Joline and Edesina spend A Memory of Light offscreen (please)?

 

In fact, speaking of Aes Sedai, does Mat figure in to the pending attack by the Seanchan on the White Tower? Will Tuon, Selucia, or Furyk be there?

 

So many things involving Mat, I haven't even touched on all of them.

 

 

Perrin had two important things happen as a result of the painful "search for Faile" storyline. One, he grew his army. Two, he met Tylee - the best chance for alliance.

 

Then, he grew up and decided to lead and found himself leading 100,000 people. Saved Galad and the Whitecloaks. Turned enemies into allies. Forged a hammer made especially for killing Shadowspawn. Mastered himself. Mastered the dream. Saved Egwene from balefire in their admittedly odd unsatisfying meeting in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

He just had so much great stuff happen that I find myself forgetting the other stuff. That said, he seems to have done so much already of what he was tasked to do. Honestly, I don't know how much we'll see of Perrin in A Memory of Light.

 

 

Egwene was spectacular in uniting The Tower. But I also loved her with the Wise Ones, and when she seized control of the Rebel Camp. Great relationships with Siuan, Bryne, Leane... awful relationship with Gawyn.

 

Was fantastic in engineering the alliance of Wise Ones, Windfinders, and The Tower. Great in fights, whether it be the Seanchan attack or the Mesanna / Black Ajah attack. I'm just bummed that she couldn't get even a moment's satisfaction out of killing Katerine.

 

I wish her relationships with most of the Hall of the Tower made any sense at all.

 

 

Faile provides organization and backbone to Perrin's leadership. But she also plays the Great Game pretty well. I've enjoyed watching her at that. Alliandre, for one thing. Bavin. Putting down Berelain. She can be an enjoyable read.

 

 

Elayne is most fun as a read in her relationships. The ones she has with Mat and Thom ironically, bring out her best. Her Daes Daemar works pretty well. Her petulance doesn't. Nor does her unceasing need to plunge into danger. It doesn't seem real when she does it so much. I found it a little hard to take when she found herself nearly dead at the hands of the same Black Ajah and Hanlon a second time. Also, why does she call Mat a "disaster when not properly harnessed"? Why does Birgitte accept that assertion when she ought to know it's untrue?

 

 

Nynaeve is good as a warrior but best as a woman of passion. Rand had it right. Her caring motivates that fantastic read as she rallied the scattered Malkieri around Lan. Her love for Rand motivated her to find his good though he himself had buried it. I can't figure out her behavior toward Mat when they are together and her professed adoration for Mat when they are apart. Is it a plot device?

 

 

Aviendha really rings true for me throughout. Great buildup, and her climax in Towers of Midnight? Fantastic. I'm dying to see her influence on the peace talks. She'll end up being the most important character in Merrilor, except for Rand himself.

 

 

Min really got shortchanged as a character when the author(s) neglected to delve deeply into the anguish that would go with her viewings. I know that if I were burdened with her knowledge in a time when so many would die, I'd break under the strain. That said, her character does have purpose and influence. She is the wildcard. Status given by the Wise Ones, by the followers of the Dragon Reborn, and earned by her cleverness. She's earned Cadsuane's grudging approval and that is fun to read.

 

 

Thom is such a great character as Mat's mentor, best friend, most dependable companion and confidante. Moiraine's savior. The brains, wisdom, and guidance onstage whenever he's there. And when he played the Great Game on Rand's behalf in Tear, he just blew it up. I could read those chapters until my eyes fall out.

 

 

Tuon has been getting mixed reaction I see. Some like her and some just hate her. Me, I mostly love her. I say "mostly" because sometimes she just won't let go of Seanchan "ways". She herself admitted that "Doing right sometimes requires an admission of guilt as well". If that is true, then continue on with it. Her insistence on destroying the White Tower reverses all of the interesting changes and acceptances occurring within her. She has so many good moments. Her realization that she underestimated Mat. Her thought that Mat made an onion look like an apple. Her acceptance of Beslan's oath.

 

 

So many characters a fellow could comment on, but I'll stop here.

[Suttree]

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

 

How dare he maintain order in the city, and keep the nobles in line, instead of letting a power vacuum lead to another Succession that would ultimately have ended with a non-Trakand on the throne.

 

She seems way more upset about the fact that he would dare give her the city that is rightfully hers, without stopping to realize if he didn't do that there wouldn't BE a city left, either for him to give or her to take.

 

Oh, and he killed the Forsaken that was plowing your mom.

 

Rand had no right to give Elayne anything, he never conquered Andor, he liberated it and was a Steward nothing more. It always amuses me how wrong people get this portion of the story. Do people forget that there was a period of time(65 days iirc) after Rand left that Dyelin was Steward? He left a power vacuum and Elayne filled it. To say if Rand pulled out there would be no Andor is plainly false.

 

Couple other things, if Elayne had allowed Rand to hand her the throne Dyelin would not have supported her and Civil War would have followed.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

So by custom in Andor it is a "self evident" truth that the Lion Throne can not be handed over by a man so there is a huge cultural precedent in play here that shapes Elaynes thoughts. In addition we have Davram Bashere's pov where he explains to Rhuarc why Elayne can't use Rand or his forces to help to claim the throne.

 

Lastly it wasn't so much Elayne indignant over Rand holding Andor for a time, far more so it was the rest of the nobles...

 

LoC, Ch.16

 

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

& the general populace...

 

TPOD, CH. 20

 

’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from.”

 

&

 

Elayne heard a great deal about Rand, rumors ranging from him swearing fealty to Elaida to him being the King of Illian, of all things. In Andor, he was blamed for everything bad that happened for the last two or three years, including stillbirths and broken legs, infestations of grasshoppers, two-headed calves, and three-legged chickens. And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor. Not what she had hoped to hear, not a bit of it. But she heard it all again and again.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Do people forget that there was a period of time(65 days iirc) after Rand left that Dyelin was Steward? He left a power vacuum and Elayne filled it. To say if Rand pulled out there would be no Andor is plainly false.

 

Dyelin didn't retain that liberated state by the force of her own arms. As you've quoted, she managed that Stewardship while Andor was still occupied by Rand's Aiel, until Elayne's return. Nobody threw them out, and nobody but nobody was going to challenge the Dragon's authority. Andor, no matter its customs, is not that brave.

 

So, in point of fact, there never was a "power vacuum" because the occupying power, whether there by conquest or liberation, never left until Elayne arrived.

 

Credit where it's due, Elayne took that throne for herself and it was not given to her, but the idea that Andor kept itself in one piece until she got back without any kind of authority is a joke, and honestly, seems to belittle her accomplishment. Why does it need a queen if a Steward with no real power can keep it in one piece?

[Suttree]

Dyelin didn't retain that liberated state by the force of her own arms. As you've quoted, she managed that Stewardship while Andor was still occupied by Rand's Aiel, until Elayne's return. Nobody threw them out, and nobody but nobody was going to challenge the Dragon's authority. Andor, no matter its customs, is not that brave.

 

At this point the Aiel where a police force and nothing more. Bashere and all other high ranking officials were out of Caemlyn, Dyelin ruled in entirety and could have used her own houses men to police the city if needed(don't forget the other houses supported her), so yes the "occupying power" was gone.

 

As to Andor's bravery it is made quite clear in text what would have happened if Rand had stayed and tried to hold the throne. Dyelin has been shown to not be the type for idle threats. So they had already challenged his authority once in the matter of him holding on to the city too long. Andor has the single largest army in Randland when called, so that isn't an idle threat. Not saying they would have been successful, but they quite clearly were ready to challenge him.

[trelkor]

i think people need to back off elayne, she can be a bit ditzy at times but honestly that makes her more interesting, i especially liek the bits where she is trying to learn the common mans way of cursing. as for the andoran civil war, well she was clearly the best candidate for queen, both amyrlins supported her, and while the tower might have been split having the support of both sides just showed that she was clearly good for it. dyelin has also never come across as a fool to me and she has repeatedly said how elayne is the right one for the job. i also noted that when elayne visited the smaller houses that are allied to her, she treated them with dignity, as opposed to arymilla who treats everyone of a lower rank the same - mud. and she may make rash decisions at times which infuriate me but there is fairly good reasoning to her stupid decisions if you look at it from her perspective instead of from the outside in

 

as for people i dislike - CHA FAILE are the most annoying part of the book, oh and that red sister (possibly sashalle) that tried to wrestle control of carhien away from sumitsu i believe, i dunno its been a long time since i read that book, but just seemed that a yellow sister that represents healing is what carhien needs, instead of someone whose purpose has been pulled out from under her

[Guest PiotrekS]

What is pretty ironic in Elayne's indignation over Rand taking Andor's throne is the fact that Rand is a son of a Daughter-Heir, which means he had some blood right to not maybe the throne itself (as it is reserved for women), but certainly to securing the nation for a time. Doesn't Tigraine's blood come before Morgase's, who ascened the throne only because Tigraine went missing?

 

Even understanding Andorans' passion for independence, I was also a little annoyed with both Elayne's and Deylin's attitude towards Rand. All those brave words and gestures of defiance had their right addressee in Rahvin, who had no problem in doing what he wanted with Andor. It is glaringly obvious none of the Andorans had the slightest chance of defeating Rahvin, which means they should be grateful to Rand.

 

I have to say nonetheless it was maybe the sole moment I was irritated by Elayne. Overall, she is one of my fauvorite characters and I even enjoyed her chapters in CoT, which is pretty rare, I know

[Durinax]

What is pretty ironic in Elayne's indignation over Rand taking Andor's throne is the fact that Rand is a son of a Daughter-Heir, which means he had some blood right to not maybe the throne itself (as it is reserved for women), but certainly to securing the nation for a time. Doesn't Tigraine's blood come before Morgase's, who ascened the throne only because Tigraine went missing?

 

tigraines blood is just another noble house's blood, since another house has taken the throne and became the royal blood

[Eht Slat Meit]

At this point the Aiel where a police force and nothing more.

 

Police force or not, they are an occupying power. Had they left, any noble house attempting to "police" Andor under the perceived pretext of Stewardship would have been considered an invitation to civil war, no matter how good their intentions. Dyelin may have had only the right reasons and many people to support here, but it still would have provoked a war. The Aiel preserved stability, in part because of the limited duration of their time there.

 

As to Andor's bravery it is made quite clear in text what would have happened if Rand had stayed and tried to hold the throne. Dyelin has been shown to not be the type for idle threats. So they had already challenged his authority once in the matter of him holding on to the city too long. Andor has the single largest army in Randland when called, so that isn't an idle threat. Not saying they would have been successful, but they quite clearly were ready to challenge him.

 

Uniting against an outside threat is an ongoing theme in unifying nations in the WoT books, and even Rand recognizes that unifying Andor against him wouldn't serve Elayne. That temporary unification is exactly that; it is not a lasting situation and it requires someone in charge to take advantage of it and rally it into real and lasting power. King Roedran of Murandy did it and so did Elayne.

 

Without that leadership, the threat either dominates, or it goes away, but in the end, the unified nation doesn't go back to the way it was. It falls apart. Dyelin might have ruled after that, but it isn't what she wanted, no matter how real her threat. Point - without leadership or some sort of enforced stability like unification and policing powers, there is a vaccuum and nations fall.

[Suttree]

Police force or not, they are an occupying power. Had they left, any noble house attempting to "police" Andor under the perceived pretext of Stewardship would have been considered an invitation to civil war, no matter how good their intentions. Dyelin may have had only the right reasons and many people to support here, but it still would have provoked a war...

 

Are you really trying to say that if Dyelin had used her own armsmen to police Andor as Steward that would have started a civil war? Don't you recall that she did precisely that?

 

“Take the throne?” Deira said incredulously, and her husband laughed out loud.

 

“I have no understanding of wetlander ways,” Bael said, “but I do not think that is what she has done.”

 

“Far from it.” Davram carried the pitcher over to pour more punch for Rand. “Some lesser lords and ladies who thought to curry favor proclaimed for her at Aringill. She moves quickly, Lady Dyelin. Within four days she had the two leaders hanged, for treason to the Daughter-Heir Elayne, and ordered another twenty flogged.” He chuckled approvingly. His wife sniffed. Likely she would have had the road lined with gibbets all the way from Aringill to Caemlyn

[Eht Slat Meit]

Are you really trying to say that if Dyelin had used her own armsmen to police Andor as Steward that would have started a civil war? Don't you recall that she did precisely that?

 

Yes, she certainly did that.

 

While the Aiel were occupying/policing Andor. When the people of the Dragon and Dyelin are aligned to the same end, how many of those same good Andorans are going to challenge it? Elayne came back, and the very first thing that was dealt with was the question of whether she was claiming the throne by her own rights, or from the hand of the Dragon.

 

Why does she need to? Why is it even a question? Because the White Lion isn't the only banner hanging over the Royal Palace.

 

The Inner City, ringed by towered walls of silver-streaked white, was a remembered delight, and Elayne finally began to feel that she was coming home. The streets followed the curves of the hills, and every rise presented a new vista of snow-covered parks and monuments laid out to be seen from above as well as up close, of brightly tiled towers shining with a hundred colors in the afternoon sun. And then the Royal Palace itself was before them, a confection of pale spires and golden domes and intricate stonework traceries. The banner of Andor waved from nearly every prominence, the White Lion on red. And from the others, the Dragon Banner or the Banner of Light.

 

The answer to why? Because that banner levies the possible threat of a puppet queen. With the question answered, she can go on to fight her own battle for the Lion Throne.

 

Point - Without the threat of the Aiel backing her claims to be acting in Elayne's interests, every other House would be perfectly within reason (as Elayne is already suspicious) to suspect Dyelin of making a grab for the throne by enforcing laws like treason for a woman who hasn't yet claimed that throne.

[Suttree]

While the Aiel were occupying/policing Andor. When the people of the Dragon and Dyelin are aligned to the same end, how many of those same good Andorans are going to challenge it? Elayne came back, and the very first thing that was dealt with was the question of whether she was claiming the throne by her own rights, or from the hand of the Dragon.

 

Dyelin's was able to use her own force to police Andor because of her reputation, there was no threat of Aiel because she did so w/o Rand's knowledge and far away from Caemyln which was the only part of Andor he held.

 

Are they going to challenge it in relation to the DR though? We know what the good people of Andor thought, they wanted him out...

 

TPOD, CH. 20

 

’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from.”

 

&

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

I see the points you are making but the most important thing is had Elayne been seen to take the throne from the Dragon(as Rand initially wanted to do) Andor would never have supported her. Yes Rand was Steward and the Aiel policed the city for a short time but Elayne arrived after he was gone, held the city with a skeleton crew with zero help from him and then won over the votes.

[LeeM.Erickson]

It's not like Andor was totally against him though...Rand heard people in the street shouting for "Rand al'Thor, King of Andor," and if I recall correctly, his reaction was akin to something along the lines of he had been hearing too much of that lately.

[Mr Ares]

Does the freeing of the Sea Folk channelers help with TG at all?

 

Absolutely. In the hands of the Seanchan, those few channelers are limited solely to those that can be trained in time (TG isn't waiting for the Seanchan), and their ranks are limited only to those that were taken by the Seanchan. By being freed, these Windfinders have incurred a debt that can only be repaid with real service by everyone involved. That's not a small thing - all dealings with the Seafolk that haven't involved the interference of ta'veren have ended badly for the negotiators.

So rather than not have all the Sea Follk trained, it's better to kick off a battle which would lead to the loss of men and materiel (both Sea Folk and Seanchan), thus making it unavailable for TG. Also, even with some of the Sea Folk imprisoned, the rest can still be negotiated with. The shorebound should just send better negotiators next time.

 

And Elayne saying yes is still her production facilities turning a dream into a reality (and it was Aludra's dream more than it was Mat's - credit should thus go to her first and foremost.

 

Absolutely not. Elayne plays no role in that except that of a Known Quantity that can be trusted even if disliked, a relationship that has been built over the course of those "books where nobody accomplished a hell of a lot". These aren't a pair of star-eyed inventors from Rand's academy looking to realize their dreams - Aludra already understood the basic workings of what was needed, Mat gave them design and function; neither of these roles can be fulfilled by anyone else. Point - nobody else can be in Mat's position because he has his ta'veren nature to thank for most of his role in the matter.

Aludra designed and built the weapons, Mat was simply the person who saw their battlefield potential. If you show those same weapons to any other general worth his salt, they'll see the benefits. Which is no different to showing them to Elayne and her seeing the benefits. Both Elayne and Mat can be easily replaced in this situation, save for the trust they have built up between themselves and Aludra. Elayne is trustowrthy and can provide facilities. Mat is trustworthy and can demonstrate their battlefield potential. Really, how are they any different?

 

both happened in book 13, which would be after the period of no-one accomplishing a hell of a lot.

 

I'm not going to go into this too deeply, but to point - take a look at Mat Cauthon's entry in encyclopaedia wot, covering that specific period of the books, and tell me if you think it doesn't reflect a certain key world-shaking decision that Mat is going to have to make very soon.

Key words: very soon. I.e., he hasn't done it yet. Setting the stage for great accomplishments down the line is not in itself a great accomplishment.

 

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

Actually, that is quite justifiable on her part. If it's hers, why should he be giving it to her? If he gives it to her, it undermines her. She is seen as the Dragon's puppet. Him maintaining order is a different point - he could do that without having to give her the throne. Giving her the throne is a problem that comes solely from Rand's poorly worded statements. People often conflate the two points, but her being given the throne and him maintaining order should be seen as separate. Maintaining order in the capital and its environs is a far cry from occupying the country, and therefore being in a position to hand it over to someone else.

[Eht Slat Meit]

So rather than not have all the Sea Follk trained, it's better to kick off a battle which would lead to the loss of men and materiel (both Sea Folk and Seanchan), thus making it unavailable for TG. Also, even with some of the Sea Folk imprisoned, the rest can still be negotiated with. The shorebound should just send better negotiators next time.

 

Either way, there is a loss of human resources

 

I'm not sure why you feel the Sea Folk need to be "trained" other than to ensure their loyalty. Bound by oath or debt, they are far more reliable, and more importantly, he gains the added resources of the Sea Folk in general and not just their channelers. In battle against the Shadow, I'd say that counts for a lot more than the time-consuming methods of the Seanchan.

 

I'll also point out here that you seem to be endowing Mat with something he does not possess... a reader's eye view of paths that he should have taken if he were wiser. Mat doesn't know that he needs to tie the Seanchan to Rand so that Rand can win; he's not actively participating in deciding his role. That's dictated by his ta'veren nature and what the Pattern feels that he needs to do his part at TG. In other words, the Will of Jordan. Now, if we take this strictly in judging what Jordan thought best for Mat, then I'd say that Jordan has the right of it. Why? Because from a numeric, tactics and story-based perspective, it is far better for Mat to not only tie the Seanchan to Rand, but the Sea Folk as well. In other words, having the Sea Folk serve him directly, rather than the Seanchan. The Sea Folk are far more effective as an independent organization than a slave race.

 

Negotiating without the benefit of the ta'veren cheat is inefficient to an extreme. Don't the ta'veren in question have better things to do? Like say, the events leading up to the Last Battle? Gathering armies, rescuing Moiraine, killing Forsaken, etc etc?

 

Aludra designed and built the weapons, Mat was simply the person who saw their battlefield potential. If you show those same weapons to any other general worth his salt, they'll see the benefits. Which is no different to showing them to Elayne and her seeing the benefits. Both Elayne and Mat can be easily replaced in this situation, save for the trust they have built up between themselves and Aludra. Elayne is trustowrthy and can provide facilities. Mat is trustworthy and can demonstrate their battlefield potential. Really, how are they any different?

 

And that's why I credit Aludra with most of this rather than Mat or Elayne. However, I will point out that Mat and Elayne are NOT interchangeable here. Elayne can be replaced by any monarch, of which there are plenty. Mat can be replaced by Perrin or Rand. One's busy running the world, the other's busy.... umm, saving his wife... and oh yeah, gathering armies. That pretty much leaves Mat, and why? Because without his ta'veren nature, Aludra's inventions would never have been anything more than an obscure curiosity of the Age. Had Aludra began trying to peddle her dragons as the world-shaking resource they were, chances are she'd have been laughed off to Rand's academy, simply laughed off, or worse, dead and tortured. How many people are really going to let Aludra near a Great General or king/queen to show them the power of her inventions, without the benefit of a ta'veren? No, she would have done the smart thing, had her moment of defiance, and gone the way of the Illuminators.

 

Being ta'veren isn't much in the way of "accomplishment", but at least Mat had to do something besides simply Be Trustworthy to turn the dragons into something more. Although being trustworthy (aka pretty bottom) was an unfortunately large element of his role and puts him not far above Elayne in the value chain related to the dragons.

 

Key words: very soon. I.e., he hasn't done it yet. Setting the stage for great accomplishments down the line is not in itself a great accomplishment.

 

You are correct in stating that there's no accomplishment in setting a stage; there's a reason I didn't intend to go into it too deeply, because the fact of the matter is that it's about story-telling and establishing rationale than sating a desire for high adventure and world-shaking accomplishments. Breaking the world is Rand's job.

 

However, that's not to say that the events of those books aren't showcasing a different kind of accomplishment... that of overcoming his distrust of Aes Sedai and forging his chains to the Seanchan. Minor accomplishments, yes, but doing what is to come without them would be just plain bad storytelling. Mat's a primary character and going to make an earth-shaking future-shaping decision(s) that will tie the Seanchan to Rand and decide the fate of the Aes Sedai without a word of explanation other than "Lol, ta'veren", replacing that explanation with a bunch of fighting that can be found elsewhere in the books? I realize that those books are slower and the pace could have been handled better in terms of intermingling with action, but to treat it as inconsequential is ignoring what's happening between the lines and the changes Mat is undergoing.

[Mr Ares]

So rather than not have all the Sea Follk trained, it's better to kick off a battle which would lead to the loss of men and materiel (both Sea Folk and Seanchan), thus making it unavailable for TG. Also, even with some of the Sea Folk imprisoned, the rest can still be negotiated with. The shorebound should just send better negotiators next time.

 

Either way, there is a loss of human resources

So Mat can hardly be praised for something which is only of dubious benefit to the Light's efforts at TG.

 

I'm not sure why you feel the Sea Folk need to be "trained" other than to ensure their loyalty.

I'm not sure why you think damane don't need to be trained.

Bound by oath or debt, they are far more reliable, and more importantly, he gains the added resources of the Sea Folk in general and not just their channelers. In battle against the Shadow, I'd say that counts for a lot more than the time-consuming methods of the Seanchan.

 

I'll also point out here that you seem to be endowing Mat with something he does not possess... a reader's eye view of paths that he should have taken if he were wiser. Mat doesn't know that he needs to tie the Seanchan to Rand so that Rand can win; he's not actively participating in deciding his role. That's dictated by his ta'veren nature and what the Pattern feels that he needs to do his part at TG. In other words, the Will of Jordan. Now, if we take this strictly in judging what Jordan thought best for Mat, then I'd say that Jordan has the right of it. Why? Because from a numeric, tactics and story-based perspective, it is far better for Mat to not only tie the Seanchan to Rand, but the Sea Folk as well. In other words, having the Sea Folk serve him directly, rather than the Seanchan. The Sea Folk are far more effective as an independent organization than a slave race.

Mat didn't act to tie the Sea Folk to Rand. He acted to free slaves. Any benefit gained is an unintentional by-product. Taking his actions here in isolation, with the benfit of the reader's eye perspective, Mat's actions may help draw the Sea Folk to Rand, but they won't bring the Seanhcan any closer. Any gain with one is cancelled out by the loss to the other.

 

Negotiating without the benefit of the ta'veren cheat is inefficient to an extreme. Don't the ta'veren in question have better things to do? Like say, the events leading up to the Last Battle? Gathering armies, rescuing Moiraine, killing Forsaken, etc etc?

Then that's why you don't bother with a ta'veren. Most people who deal with the Sea Folk manage just fine without one.

 

Aludra designed and built the weapons, Mat was simply the person who saw their battlefield potential. If you show those same weapons to any other general worth his salt, they'll see the benefits. Which is no different to showing them to Elayne and her seeing the benefits. Both Elayne and Mat can be easily replaced in this situation, save for the trust they have built up between themselves and Aludra. Elayne is trustowrthy and can provide facilities. Mat is trustworthy and can demonstrate their battlefield potential. Really, how are they any different?

 

And that's why I credit Aludra with most of this rather than Mat or Elayne. However, I will point out that Mat and Elayne are NOT interchangeable here. Elayne can be replaced by any monarch, of which there are plenty. Mat can be replaced by Perrin or Rand.

Or Agelmar Jagad, Gareth Bryne, Davram Bashere, Rodel ituralde, and probably a lot of others as well (I don't think it's only Great Captains who could see the benefits of such a weapon). As long as she can show it to someone who will see the potential (and it was her good fortune to meet with Mat, a man who could most definitely see their potential, making the whole thing much easier than it might otherwise have been. Note, though, that while Mat makes things easier he does not make them possible. The same could happen without him). Further, not every monarch has the same facilities available to them as Andor has. Replace Elayne with, say, Alliandre, and you might have have that many bellfounders who are able to get to work making your cannons. Mat is just as replaceable as Elayne. In fact, if Elayne inspects her academy in the same way Rand did his, that would mean that mat isn't necessary at all. Aludra gets into the academy, and when Elayne passes by all she needs to do is demonstrate the possibilities of her new invention. Even without Mat, or even academies, there are routes to the top. It might take a bit longer, but monarchs do hear petitions and suchlike. All she needs to do is not mess up the opportuinities that present themselves, and she will surely convince people that she has an idea worth listening to.

 

Being ta'veren isn't much in the way of "accomplishment", but at least Mat had to do something besides simply Be Trustworthy to turn the dragons into something more.

Yes, he also had to be present. That's a hell of a thing to accomplish.

Key words: very soon. I.e., he hasn't done it yet. Setting the stage for great accomplishments down the line is not in itself a great accomplishment.

 

You are correct in stating that there's no accomplishment in setting a stage; there's a reason I didn't intend to go into it too deeply, because the fact of the matter is that it's about story-telling and establishing rationale than sating a desire for high adventure and world-shaking accomplishments. Breaking the world is Rand's job.

 

However, that's not to say that the events of those books aren't showcasing a different kind of accomplishment... that of overcoming his distrust of Aes Sedai and forging his chains to the Seanchan. Minor accomplishments, yes, but doing what is to come without them would be just plain bad storytelling. Mat's a primary character and going to make an earth-shaking future-shaping decision(s) that will tie the Seanchan to Rand and decide the fate of the Aes Sedai without a word of explanation other than "Lol, ta'veren", replacing that explanation with a bunch of fighting that can be found elsewhere in the books? I realize that those books are slower and the pace could have been handled better in terms of intermingling with action, but to treat it as inconsequential is ignoring what's happening between the lines and the changes Mat is undergoing.

It's a shame that's not what I was doing, else you might have had a point. As it is, I was simply pointing out that Elayne's achievements (or lack of) over a given period are in line with the achievements (or lack of) or most other major characters over the same period. There is a lot of time over those books spent laying the groundwork for what is to come, and that is not unimportant. Why single out Elayne?