[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[Turin Turambar]

Fair enough Des. I've never seen Cult in a game I've played before. That makes some sense.

 

Ed, I think that smell is your socks. (sorry for the BT joke)

 

95% that is impressive. Thanks for the response. If I may can I ask if everyone saw it? If it turns out I was being Mr. Obvious then I'll rethink this thought provoking(and vote provoking) question thing.

[Sakaea]

Or Des is the CL and he was trying to throw suspicion on someone else, and it was his bad luck that that person flipped doc.

 

Just speculation.

[mmeeshal]

Okay, I'm back....

 

Wow, guys. Just wow.

 

Who the heck said anything about a case on Wombat? Please quote me where I said "I have a very strong feeling on Wombat and I will pull up the evidence to build a case tomorrow."

 

I said I had a "not-good" feeling on Wombat, hence my vote for him because I'm not cool with bandwagons this early on, especially over stuff that seems kinda trivial to me at the moment. A "not-good" feeling isn't strong enough to have a "case" with it. But some of your reactions are very interesting, guys.

 

Anyway, what I DID say I was going to do is go through Wombat's posts and point out which ones didn't feel good TO ME. Just so there's something more substantial than just "I don't like him."

 

You guys (mostly Despo) are trying to discredit me before I even post anything, and that makes me wonder if maybe I'm onto something here. Anyway, I'm embarking now.

[mmeeshal]

Oh yeah, while I'm digging through the thread for Wombat's posts, I just wanted to say that I think it's funny that ANYone says they have a "good" feeling about Wombat right now... XD In my experience, more often than not he comes off scummy to everyone. XD Plus, I've seen only one really good post from him (at Nolder) and one really good post does not seal the deal on if he's good or not. Helpful is the best way to play scum, imo... XD

[mmeeshal]

I'd edit it in, but I figured it would be easier just to post it separately, so you know I'm not changing anything else...

 

One of the reasons I'm emphasizing that I am not making a case is that I am very much open to changing my opinion--if I was casing Wombat I'd have to be pretty positive that I was onto something. I'm not; again, just a feeling. This is an exercise for myself as well as for everyone else. XD

[mmeeshal]

I don't like the way Boyo subtly pushed back at Nolder by accusing him of defending Amega.

 

Vote: Mr. Soy Boyo

Wombat's posts seem a bit sparse, so I'll probably end up quoting all of them. XD Since that won't be TOO many posts, I should think...

 

Anyway...hmm...this one was only iffy to me, at the time. In hindsight it would be easy to say nasty things about this post...but honestly, at the time, I mainly only didn't like this because I was getting very strong town vibes from Boyo (for most of his time in this game, actually, though not all XD) and I thought this seemed a bit opportunistic of Wombat in that light.

[mmeeshal]

Can't get a read on Nolder. I think he is trying to not get lynched by changing his style. That isn't necessarily scummy though.

I don't remember having a bad reaction to this post.

[mmeeshal]

I am of the opinion that D1 is more important than most people think. I don't like joke votes, but I don't begrudge them either unless they extend for too long. I agree that this discussion of joke voting isn't very relevant to hunting scum.

Okay, I do remember this one.... I didn't like it much because it seemed to be kind of strangely placed. Like, I thought the discussion on joke-voting and Day 1 had died down, for the most part, and then BG mentioned it a bit and then here's Wombat.... Acting like the discussion is still very much going on actively and saying it's not relevant to hunting scum, but contributing to it anyway.... *shrugs* Just felt strange to me.

 

I am tempted to vote you for subtly WIFOMing your alignment, Meesh.

And then this one...I'm checking now, but I don't think Wombat ever answered me when I asked him what he meant. Nope, didn't. Uhh...that was in response to post #247, if you want to look....

 

Anyway, nope, he never offered explanation, just said something that didn't even make sense and disapparated. Not necessarily scummy on its own, but since I was suddenly being attacked for seemingly no real reason by BG, and having everything I said twisted around, this post felt like more of the same, which I didn't like. So a bit situational, I guess.

[mmeeshal]

is it just me or is blackhoof agreeing with everyone?

 

Yeah, what a slimy slimeball.

not what I was saying...

 

Then what were you trying to say?

exactly what I said

 

I'm going to go back a bit because this bothered me. If you weren't trying to imply that Blackhoof was scummy for agreeing with everyone, then why did you even comment at all? I also find all this jumping all over BG for his Levity vote to be very interesting.

Thank you for quote pyramids already there; I thought this would be easier than quoting each one separately... XD

 

Well, the "slimy slimeball" thing looked snarky to me originally, although that may have just been a personal reaction, and maybe it was snarky, I dunno. Also, I can't really complain about snark myself, so meh...

 

Okay, so the rest of the interaction...just to refresh people's memories, Nolder went on to explain he was just asking if other people noticed the same thing about Blackhoof--not necessarily to call him scum, but just wondering if it was noticeable to others.

 

But anyway, the Womby/Nol interaction was meh....

 

And his comment on the BG thing... Of course it was interesting, Womby.

 

I didn't like how he said "all this jumping all over BG for his Levity vote" which wasn't exactly an accurate representation of what happened. What happened was that BG was ASKED why he voted for Levity, and he reacted very strangely and strongly to that. As far as I can tell, the majority of the "jumping all over BG" that was being done was based on what he was saying and how he was saying it in response to ME and others, not based on his Levity vote. That just kick-started it. So a bit of misrepresentation here by Wombat, maybe trying to make the whole thing look like something more sinister? Or just to discredit the events?

 

Regardless, I didn't like it very much, though admittedly I'm a bit biased here.

[mmeeshal]

@corrosive: so, you are saying that if he was mafia-buddies with Meesh, he could be stopping the argument since he might fear her lynch withotu lookign like he is directly defending her?

You forgot the other option for that question, Hoof. I don't think I was on my way to a lynch, so it could have very easily been BG.

 

Personally, I kinda thought Nol's post was weird as well. I don't want to go so far as to say he's on a team with BG atm, but it was very very strange, and the timing, too. Things had settled down quite a bit, and valid points were restated, and then Nol comes in with "OMG, you guys are going crazy, and I think it's just town on town violence, stop fighting, this is painful and unproductive, omg!!!" It was, again, timed very interestingly. The tone of his post and his reaction weren't really valid at all anymore. It was also said right after Boyo made very clear the points that I myself had been trying to communicate. Not sure if that was a coincidence or if maybe Nol wanted to discredit the points made against BG by tagging them with the word "violence" and making it sound like a bunch of personal attacks. Interesting move. Not really taking sides, but shoving the issue under the rug without giving credence or consideration to ANY of the points made. BG agreed very readily, too.

I dunno what you find odd about the timing exactly but you're very right that I am "shoving the issue under the rug without giving credence or consideration to any of the points made"

in other words I'm not reading any of your or BGs posts regarding each other

 

Same here. I may go back and read them later, but probably not.

Mmkay, for reasons I'm sure you can understand, this DEFINITELY pissed me off. For the time being I'm willing to accept that BG was probably telling the truth, BUT notice how we do NOT have his alignment even now. We don't KNOW he was town at the time, and we still don't know if he is or not. So, if there was something fishy going on, why on earth would ANYone not read it unless they already knew something about it the rest of us didn't know?

 

Both Nol and Wombat are still uber-sus to me based on that alone, by the way. There is nothing town at ALL about intentionally ignoring what anyone says in a mafia thread. You could miss something very important because you're too lazy or whatever it is that motivates you not to do that if you're town...maybe you didn't think you would miss anything important because you already knew for a fact neither party was scum? That is still the only conclusion I can draw from this.

 

**edit**

Shoot, forgot to mention that this, in addition to him misrepresenting the whole BG thing in the first place, just looks really off to me.

[mmeeshal]

BG, your case against Levity is that she is too polite? Interesting, if odd.

 

I caught Ithi with a similar case in her first game. That being said, I don't think Levity would let her alignment overtly affect her manners.

Nothing here, this one is pretty solid, if a bit noncommittal, so it didn't affect me either way.

 

Probably. Also, can we get a vote count?

This was in response to the discussion on what constitutes inactivity in a mafia game... Leyrann said: "I'd say that you should be called inactive if you have less than one post each RL day. Does everyone agree with me?"

 

So Wombat was responding to that specifically. Nothing for me there.

[mmeeshal]

I never said the walls of text were town on town; just that I didn't read them. Anyway, having just skimmed them, I think BG was trying to piss Meesh off. Also, I don't see why his "I have a super secret pro-town plan" excuse holds any water.

 

Unvote

Vote: BG

Okay, so after a bunch of people made a big stink (most noticeably at Nolder, since he stood his ground, strangely enough) about people not reading the BG/Meesh/Boyo exchanges...

 

He goes backs and at least looks at them, so thank you for that, Wombat (I forgot about this, actually XD).

 

Okay, so, he agrees with me and others who didn't like BG's actions at all. I wouldn't have had any reaction but positive to this one, since I was super-excited that FINALLY people were seeing what I was seeing. In hindsight, it might seem a bit opportunistic on his part, but that's not something I can say for sure, so we'll call this post good for now.

[mmeeshal]

As a comment here, even though I'm mostly just focusing on Wombat's posts and not actually rereading, this digging through the thread is reminding me of all the things I don't like about Nolder.... I might leave Wombat alone and go after Nolder, but that's not a promise. Just a possibility. XD

[mmeeshal]

Deadline

 

Competing trains. I like.

Not much here...not sure why he voted for a deadline, but that is unimportant.

 

Competing trains comment, seems pretty typical Womby. The competing trains were BG and Ledinna, btw.

 

Just another post by Womby, nothing here...

[mmeeshal]

I never said the walls of text were town on town; just that I didn't read them. Anyway, having just skimmed them, I think BG was trying to piss Meesh off. Also, I don't see why his "I have a super secret pro-town plan" excuse holds any water.

 

Unvote

Vote: BG

 

Ah, I see. Are you mafia that figured out my secret? it is possible given my posts. If so, you do realize what will happen if we get close to a lynch, yes?

 

Believe it or not, I think this is the only truly scummy vote on me. I can understand everyone else's votes cause they were involved or adding to the bandwagon. I think Wombat figured me out and wants to eliminate me before I can do any damage to the mafia.

 

That mixed with your desire for a deadline when when you've been fairly quiet. As I think Ishy put it, what I did was similar to your Day 1 style intentionally. Meta is a two edged sword I guess. What is normal for you is deadly to me. Shame.

 

I have no idea what you are doing other than trying to jack my swag.

Interesting exchange here. On the one hand, evidence suggests that BG is telling the truth about himself, but on the other, he's acted SO weirdly, and not in a good way, so I could take this either way as far as Wombat is concerned...

 

Um, at the time of this post, however, I am pretty sure that I took this as just one more vote of "I don't believe you" thrown at BG.

 

It's possible BG was right, though. But I'm reserving judgment.

[ElusiveAthena]

How do you play this? I've been trying to look at the rules but I'm still confused. Is this like "Mafia" game you play with cards? But eddie-boy's comment about the "smelly cat" made me even more unsure. And what does a "kitchen sink" type game mean?

[mmeeshal]

unvote

Vote" Ledinna

Understandable thing here, although I didn't like how BG lost votes all of a sudden...

 

Unofficial Vote Count:

 

Ledinna (12) - Nyn, Ed, Kae, Corrosive, Amega, BG, Nolder, Key, Wombat, Ley, Maw, Ishy

 

[I cut out the other votes and compacted it a bit to make this smaller]

 

BG (6) - Meesh, Soy, Hoof, Turin, Spirit, Ledinna

 

Not Voting: Red, Levity, Amega

 

24 players = 13 to lynch

 

unvote to avoid ninjahammers

I believe that this was while people waited to hear what Dinna had to say, so I don't take issue with it.

[mmeeshal]

In response to Levity returning...

 

You didn't really miss much imo. We just lynched Ledinna for saying some weird things about Nolder. From her lack of fight I expect her to flip vanilla town. The case on her wasn't very strong and the only competing train I can remember was on BG who claimed Cop, so we had to back off there.

Nice little summary, I suppose. Nothing truly off here; most of what I don't like is just how it turned out, I guess, not what Wombat is saying in this post.

 

And then a bit of a post-a-thon, again at Levity....

 

The apology was neither too little nor too much. Those of us who were/are in CM4 knew how busy you are, but the rest probably did not.

Fine...

 

You didn't really miss much imo. We just lynched Ledinna for saying some weird things about Nolder. From her lack of fight I expect her to flip vanilla town. The case on her wasn't very strong and the only competing train I can remember was on BG who claimed Cop, so we had to back off there.

I've read most of the second half of the game; I suppose I'll try and read through tonight, though I'll also be writing flavor in the meanwhile.

 

In regards to Ish--I know it was rude for me to sign up and vanish. (I... really didn't realize seventy-five percent of my actual content-laden posts were apologetic, either. I tend to get caught up in the moment, critically lash out at other players for things I'm wary of, and end up feeling I was too harsh in the end. I'll try and be more confident once I catch up.)

 

Looking forward to your input.

Fine-ish...if this pinged at all it would just be normal Wombat stuff, nothing else...

 

Oh and all that stuff BG said about you apologizing struck me at the time as some case he whipped up just so he'd have a nominal case. Then again, I've made cases on people for being too nice too, so it could be legit. And I don't want to risk a finder claim right now.

Ping.

Firstly, the italicized seems like something you'd have expressed previously, but this is the first post mentioning it.

Secondly, this whole post seems pretty wishy-washy. "Pfft, BG was just pulling stuff out of his butt, but then again, he could have really meant it and there could be something there, but either way he's a finder claim so yeah."

 

Like...Wombat doesn't seem to take many actual stances on anything thus far. A lot of "I can see it both ways," which always interests me from anyone. Some people apparently do that because they genuinely aren't sure what to think, but in my experience, Wombat doesn't seem to be one of the less-opinionated players out there. So this strikes me as a bit strange.

[Netbattler11]

For lurking observer: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide

[mmeeshal]

Another aside, I really hope Ed hasn't been culted.

 

**edit for ANOTHER aside**

I miss Loki, it's too bad he disappeared from DM again....

 

With hindsight telling us he was, in fact, on our side, it's interesting to revisit (not on-thread now, I'm not dragging this back up to the spotlight) the whole BG issue...Loki DID make some excellent points about BG, and we know he was being honest.

 

I've had the thought that maybe BG intended to act super-scummy because he was hoping it would keep him alive longer (as in, his finder claim would keep him from being lynched, but his scumminess and all the WIFOM would keep him from being NKed).... But still, interesting to think about, and there's no guarantee he's still town if he was in the first place...

 

But anyway, that was an aside. XD

[mmeeshal]

BG is the scummiest uncountered finder I have ever seen but he remains uncountered so I will not vote for him right now.

 

BG, how would a tailor mess with you unless the tailor knew who you were targeting?

Originally I did not like this at all because, again, I was a bit hotheaded where BG was concerned.... This post makes a bit more sense in hindsight and with a clearer head, but at the time I read this as kind of an excuse to keep BG off the lynching block.

 

I stated above I don't really believe BG's finder claim. it looks to me that Levity was not familiar with the DM mechanics and so got confused by her result and BG's statement. I also think that Loki made some decent points towards his lynch. With that I think I'll stay with voting BG.

 

 

Vote: BG

 

This seems very sheepish to me. Combined with something I read previously, it is enough for me to vote you.

 

Vote: Turin

Hmm...okay, so he was on Turin's case way back when, so at least this Turin thing today isn't totally random....

 

BUT, at this point in my exercise, I do not see any explanation as to what the "something I read previously" is or was.... So this seems rather flimsy. Not to mention I can't blame ANYone for voting BG, because there has been ample reason throughout this game for doing so....

[mmeeshal]

BG may be acting strangely, but he is still claiming cop. It's a big, steaming pile of WIFOM, but the way I see it, we should err on the side of caution for now. Lynching our finder on D2 would seriously hinder us and if Levity is what she says she is, we still have the ability to vet him. We can afford one more day to find out the truth of his claim, but if we act too soon, we have to finish the game without our cop.

 

Now he may be lying, not saying one way or the other what he's doing, but with no CC at this point (and I'm damn sure NOT calling for the real cop to CC if BG's lying) I just think we'd be making a much bigger mistake to maybe lynch our Cop than to wait one more day to see if Lev and the rest of us can either catch him in a lie, or prove he is what he says he is.

 

I agree completely. Can't lynched an uncountered cop without evidence.

Didn't like this at the time, but there's nothing wrong with it.

 

I am not suggesting that anyone counterclaim BG yet. I would rather if a cop were to counterclaim BG that that cop had a guilty result on someone other than BG before claiming. That way we could catch two scum. Lynching an uncountered cop claim without hard evidence of guilt is utterly inane and doing the mafia's work for them.

Again, makes total sense, although I didn't like it at the time.

[mmeeshal]

Vote: Meesh

 

Both her and Corrosive are good choices imo, but I think Meesh is slightly better. I don't like how she just buddied up to Turin.

 

This one got a huge rise out of me at the time. I still don't like it much, but I think I was slightly overreacting... XD He gave no reasoning for thinking I was a better choice than Corrosive, except the buddying up thing, which was totally invalid anyway and a bit laughable. I especially didn't like it at the time because it was on the tails of me saying that everyone trying to lynch me would be a waste of time, and it seemed like he was testing me or something...pushing for a reveal, if indirectly. Like I said then, the honest thing in that case would be just to ask, or let it go.

 

Anyway.

 

Some whatever posts here, nothing to do with me, nothing that stuck out...

 

That isn't the role I think of as Neighborhood Watch but I have seen it called that before. Ama actually had that role in her first game. Of course, Red was also in that game so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a fake claim.

LEVITY EQUALS LOVE

[mmeeshal]

It is overpowered. The only way to counter it is to give mafia something similarly overpowered.

This on the discussion about the Neighborhood Watch team; Cuathon thought it sounded a bit extreme and was thinking it sounded like a made-up role.

 

Game mechanic speculation doesn't really do much for me when it's harmless like this. So nothing here.

 

Red and Meesh are pingin.

Um-de-um...Wasn't sure what for at first because I'm mostly just reading Wombat's posts, but Red and I had a bit of a disagreement over...BG and Verb, I think...she didn't like what I said about Verb, and she thought it was weird that I was defending BG against what she claimed he said, although that turned out to be a misunderstanding....

 

Understandable post keeping that in mind, although, as Red asked him afterward, no comment on BG/Cuathon? That was a more present issue at the time of this post, and I don't think Wombat commented at all on that...

[mmeeshal]

Aggressive play is not necessarily anti-town. That being said, the way Red does it is often anti-town. I don't really want to lynch either of you right now although I do wish you would both shut up.

And by "shut up" I suppose I mean "calm down"

Responds to Red and Cuathon getting a bit irritated with each other, to say the least.... Pretty innocent in and of itself. Curious as to why there were no actual thoughts added at this point, but it's Womby, so yeah. Might be asking a bit much. He does his own thing.