[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[mmeeshal]

Well to be honest, I'd be very willing to move to BG, I think he's a much better candidate than Nol. While Nol's play has been a little off, BG's has been waaay off. And since we still apparantly have no deadline, I think we should move to the more likely scum. Just saying.

My last post was in response to this. XD

[Nolder]

Not only from your posts in this game, but to utilize a little meta here, what the hell has happened to the both of you this go-round? Neither of you have ever played this type of game, at least, in any I've been in with you two. Why the change? Just doesn't smell right to me.

I'm not sure what you mean

what am I doing differently?

[John E. Kelley]

Heh, I've been going off of voting patterns, really. As a general principle, people can say they are willing to vote for someone all they want but that doesn't make it true.

 

Granted, I'm sure people want to avoid looking like they're vote-hopping or something....

 

But as mine was the only vote on BG when I unvoted (as far as I'm aware) and Ledinna and Nol had a significant number of votes each.... It doesn't seem like there are that many people willing to commit to a BG lynch.

 

If that makes sense.

 

It makes sense, I just wanted to make a point before I moved on since we seem to have the time right now. If a vote is what it takes to prove at least my sincerity, I'll give BG one more chance to explain and if it doesn't satisfy, you can count on my vote going on him. And his timetable to reply is limited, because I really believe he's our best shot at this point. Also want to give Dinna a chance to say something.

 

Although I do think that I may have shot us in the foot by saying I wanted to pressure her and not lynch.

[John E. Kelley]

Not only from your posts in this game, but to utilize a little meta here, what the hell has happened to the both of you this go-round? Neither of you have ever played this type of game, at least, in any I've been in with you two. Why the change? Just doesn't smell right to me.

I'm not sure what you mean

what am I doing differently?

 

Well tbh, you've never been one to call for us to just drop an issue or end an arguement. You've always been one to enjoy a long, protracted discussion and the fact that you don't want to continue this one is very different from your usual play. You WoT's have been a constant in the games I've always played. And yes, they've been in this game too, but it seems that you've been including them under duress.

[Nolder]

thanks for waiting for me to catch up before bandwagoning

You're welcome. Don't think I need to....doubt anything whatsoever you can say is going to change my opinion here.

talk about sweeping things under the rug...

[mmeeshal]

these arguments have taken a spotlight and pretty much all scumhunting has ceased

I also take issue with this statement. You're implying that the arguments themselves are not scumhunting when, in fact, I know AT LEAST that I am only discussing this BECAUSE I'm scumhunting. It's ridiculous for you to so lightly dismiss and openly refuse to read a discussion that gives the town info.... As Boyo said, what people say is what we have to go on, that's how we get information, so by that token everyone who is talking about the game is helping. Maybe initially my discussion with BG seemed pointless to you, but if you stopped reading, how would you know it continued to be so? And you haven't acknowledged that other people, when reading the entirety of the discussion, are also seeing something off with BG. Why are you ignoring that?

they may be scumhunting in a limited scope but I was more referring to the fact that everyone is sitting back and letting you guys argue

we're no longer trying to pick scum out of the crowd and that's a problem

 

I know because I know

sorry but that's how it is

I saw what you guys were saying and I can see where it was going

to me it was obviously a townie on townie spat

I don't need to waste my time reading the rest of it to know that all the jabs you're taking at each other don't matter to me

 

other people also see the same thing I do concerning you both, are you ignoring that?

 

And why are both you and BG trying to discredit this whole thing so much? Nol, you're basically saying "It's so ridiculous I'm refusing to read it, and it's shut down activity, so it's all your guys' fault if things aren't going well!" which is definitely a blatant attempt to get people to ignore the discussion and any points brought up.

I never told anyone not to read it but whatever you say

 

BG, you leapt at the chance to cool it (you did, whether it was dramatically or not--yes, I had said all I had to say at the time but I didn't agree to let it go, hence why I brought it up later when I had more thoughts about Nol's weird thing; but you were like, "yes, let's call a truce, and stop this" which meant you did not want to keep discussing it and you were taking Nol's statement as an out) and now you're ignoring the discussion and just pointing out one little thing that may have been exaggeration on Boyo's part to try and turn everyone against him so they won't listen to anything else he's said.

UMMMMMMMMMM?

I made all the points I wanted to make. Didn't do it nearly well enough, but I have nothing more to say anyway.

you're really going to twist it to make it seem like this wasn't agreement to stop arguing?

lol ok

 

On blaming the discussion for killing activity, that is not the case. Nothing we've said has discouraged other people from weighing in--that is everyone's individual choice, and it's not up to any of us to make the game extra-comfortable for each other. This is not a comfortable game, so if you're playing, I'm assuming you know what to expect and are willing/able to handle it and keep playing to the best of your abilities. Thus, I play the game and oh well if someone doesn't like my tone or what I'm saying--I'm just doing my job here.

your discussion has blown up to the point where it's overshadowing everything

it is discouraging people from "weighing in" because you know what happens when they do? you accuse them of "shoving the whole issue under the rug"

speaking of which...

 

So yeah--Nol and BG are trying really hard to shove the whole issue under the rug, and to discredit those of us who are pointing out the scumminess we see. Why would they do that if our accusations are unfounded?

Which you seem to be wanting to push under the rug as well.

if I was trying to push this aside I'd be trying to placate you

perhaps by agreeing that BG is scummy or that the discussion between/about Meesh and BG should still be taking place or apologizing for my perceived scummy behavior

I am doing none of these things and am willing to discuss these matters at length if necessary

Bolded parts are what I wanted to respond to:

 

1st--this is why I would be fine seeing you lynched, Nol. They weren't jabs but you're trying to pass them off as if they were. It's nothing personal against BG--we get along fine elsewhere. It has everything to do with what he's been saying in this game and I've been trying and trying to point out that his actions do not look town, and I've been trying to point out the myriad flaws in his explanations/excuses, and you're calling those jabs? Whatever.

 

2nd--No, I'm not. I notice Sakaea and Wombat specifically agreeing with this. I don't think anyone else has maintained that--most everyone else who's weighed in notices that BG looks very interesting because of this discussion. A few people have even changed their opinion because we didn't stop our "jabs" as you call them, and why would that happen if it was just pointless bickering? Again, you miss stuff when you don't read, Nol.

 

3rd--Um, I don't have to twist anything. I remember exactly how pissed off I was when I typed that. I was going to say, "whatever, sure" but then I thought, no, I want to let them know that I'm not giving this up, I just don't feel the need to press my points at this time. Because I KNEW that if I agreed to back off, everything I said would be treated like a bunch of emotional crap with no basis, and that no one would think I really meant anything I was saying. And I didn't bring anything up again until more discussion started and I thought of new things. So, yeah, no twisting, Nol.

 

4th and I think last--Just you and BG, my dear. Just you two. No one else has been accused of trying to actively discredit the discussion but you two.

[mmeeshal]

thanks for waiting for me to catch up before bandwagoning

You're welcome. Don't think I need to....doubt anything whatsoever you can say is going to change my opinion here.

talk about sweeping things under the rug...

Talk about twisting....

[mmeeshal]

Especially since you just proved my point--I'll read what you say, but it's not going to change my opinion.

[mmeeshal]

Oh, and yay for bazillion-posting, but: I saw your reply, Ishy, and it is noted. I guess we'll see what BG has to say. XD

[WWWwombat]

I never said the walls of text were town on town; just that I didn't read them. Anyway, having just skimmed them, I think BG was trying to piss Meesh off. Also, I don't see why his "I have a super secret pro-town plan" excuse holds any water.

 

Unvote

Vote: BG

[Nolder]

Not only from your posts in this game, but to utilize a little meta here, what the hell has happened to the both of you this go-round? Neither of you have ever played this type of game, at least, in any I've been in with you two. Why the change? Just doesn't smell right to me.

I'm not sure what you mean

what am I doing differently?

 

Well tbh, you've never been one to call for us to just drop an issue or end an arguement. You've always been one to enjoy a long, protracted discussion and the fact that you don't want to continue this one is very different from your usual play. You WoT's have been a constant in the games I've always played. And yes, they've been in this game too, but it seems that you've been including them under duress.

this goes back to one of my first games ever

I do go on and on

I can argue for hours on end and keep it going for days

this is NOT a good thing

just like when I get angry when I play mafia (I do sometimes, in case you hadn't noticed)

anyway back to what I was saying

in one of my first games I got into a big heated argument that just kept going and going and one of the players basically told me to shut up

I took that badly of course but he explained how a big argument can really overshadow a game and cause it to become all about the two people arguing (in this case I guess we'll say four)

I ignored him and kept pushing until I think I got lynched

as townie of course

later I found out the other player was townie and that entire argument was just such a waste of time and effort and it let mafia sneak under the radar

since then I at times make an attempt to cool down my arguments or at least take some time to case other players or something

I know I still get into the WoT battles but it's a bad habit and one I'm trying to work on

[mmeeshal]

unvote

 

vote BG

 

I am okay with this development. XD

[Nolder]

1st--this is why I would be fine seeing you lynched, Nol. They weren't jabs but you're trying to pass them off as if they were. It's nothing personal against BG--we get along fine elsewhere. It has everything to do with what he's been saying in this game and I've been trying and trying to point out that his actions do not look town, and I've been trying to point out the myriad flaws in his explanations/excuses, and you're calling those jabs? Whatever.

you've misunderstood my meaning

I don't mean to say it's personal or that there are hard feeling

I think of debates like these as "fights" and you're both trying to knock each other out and win

when I say jab I mean "make a response"

like this one

you see?

 

2nd--No, I'm not. I notice Sakaea and Wombat specifically agreeing with this. I don't think anyone else has maintained that--most everyone else who's weighed in notices that BG looks very interesting because of this discussion. A few people have even changed their opinion because we didn't stop our "jabs" as you call them, and why would that happen if it was just pointless bickering? Again, you miss stuff when you don't read, Nol.

"most everyone else who's weighed in" is like 2 or 3 other people but whatever

 

3rd--Um, I don't have to twist anything. I remember exactly how pissed off I was when I typed that. I was going to say, "whatever, sure" but then I thought, no, I want to let them know that I'm not giving this up, I just don't feel the need to press my points at this time. Because I KNEW that if I agreed to back off, everything I said would be treated like a bunch of emotional crap with no basis, and that no one would think I really meant anything I was saying. And I didn't bring anything up again until more discussion started and I thought of new things. So, yeah, no twisting, Nol.

well you pretty much failed because your post gives the impression that you agreed to drop it to me

it was not made clear to me that you were just backing off for now

 

4th and I think last--Just you and BG, my dear. Just you two. No one else has been accused of trying to actively discredit the discussion but you two.

because no one else will do it because they don't want to BE accused

[John E. Kelley]

Meh, I think we're focusing on the wrong guy. I think Wom has the right idea.

 

Unvote. Vote BG.

 

Hope this doesn't offend you, but I think I just figured out what has seemed so scummy to me about BG. He's been playing this game like......Wom. Voting with no explanations, giving no reasonings for what he does. I've asked Wom before about his style and he gave me an explanation. BG, however, hasn't. Wom told me in the past that he sometimes does this just to get a reaction, see how everyone reacts to his moves to get a read on everyone. "Shake the tree and see what falls out." I get it and I kind of like it. But BG has never pulled anything like this before.

 

And I hope this proves my resolve to you now Meesh.

[Nolder]

now

are we done for the moment? can I go make my other little cases now?

[John E. Kelley]

now

are we done for the moment? can I go make my other little cases now?

 

Please do. You have some points to make?

[Nolder]

now

are we done for the moment? can I go make my other little cases now?

 

Please do. You have some points to make?

I dunno

I was going to do a reread and see what I could pick out on some of our less active players

 

I think I might watch some stuff on youtube though for a bit so uhh expect that in a few hours not "soon"

[John E. Kelley]

now

are we done for the moment? can I go make my other little cases now?

 

Please do. You have some points to make?

I dunno

I was going to do a reread and see what I could pick out on some of our less active players

 

I think I might watch some stuff on youtube though for a bit so uhh expect that in a few hours not "soon"

 

Boo.

[mmeeshal]

What, you couldn't have done that before (focused on other things)? Okay, then.

[Amadine]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay in VC - my work schedule is going back to normal now so should be able to do more regular counts now. Maw did not unvote so...

 

 

Ed (1) - Key

Leelou (1) - Nolder

Ley (1) - Maw

Ledinna (6) - Nyn, Leelou, Ed, Kae, Corrosive, Amega

Amega (1) - Spirit

Soy (2) - Des, BG

Pandy (1) - Verb

Nolder (5) - Pandy, Turin, Soy, Hoof, Ley

BG (3) - Womby, Meesh, Ishy

Not Voting: Red, Levity, Ledinna, Amega

24 players = 13 to lynch

[Amadine]

I'm seeing quite a few calls for a deadline - do you truly need a deadline to be able to consolidate your votes? I thought the game was progressing nicely myself, however if you truly want one post

 

DEADLINE

 

for me, if we get a majority (ie 13 votes) for the deadline i will set one.

[Nolder]

@meesh: I don't understand your question

 

@VC: isn't Red the one who always wants to have her vote somewhere at all times? or am I getting her mixed up with someone else? if so, it's odd that she's not voting atm

[Nolder]

I'm seeing quite a few calls for a deadline - do you truly need a deadline to be able to consolidate your votes? I thought the game was progressing nicely myself, however if you truly want one post

 

DEADLINE

 

for me, if we get a majority (ie 13 votes) for the deadline i will set one.

personally I think we're ok for now

the game doesn't really feel like it's dragging to me and I'm still not very sure who I'd like to see lynched

[mmeeshal]

now

are we done for the moment? can I go make my other little cases now?

I meant this. You act like you weren't allowed to do it before. No one was stopping you.

 

Incidentally, it may be totally coincidental, but habits in this game die hard--it reminds me a lot of BG saying he couldn't post reasons for voting Levity, or suspicions or anything at all for that matter, because I was in the middle of a discussion with Red. Totally a big excuse, and excuses are like a certain part of the human anatomy--everyone has one, and they all stink.

[Nolder]

now

are we done for the moment? can I go make my other little cases now?

I meant this. You act like you weren't allowed to do it before. No one was stopping you.

 

Incidentally, it may be totally coincidental, but habits in this game die hard--it reminds me a lot of BG saying he couldn't post reasons for voting Levity, or suspicions or anything at all for that matter, because I was in the middle of a discussion with Red. Totally a big excuse, and excuses are like a certain part of the human anatomy--everyone has one, and they all stink.

you and Ishy were kind of distracting me

I felt like I had to keep addressing you guys

 

I don't understand what you're getting at with this second part

could you be clearer please?