Bad Ending

[bobarose]

i think mat will kill morie because rand will be very busy.

mat is the only big three causulty.faile dies lan and nyvie die

in each others arms(sigh).camelon gets destroyed big time.

the wolfs and perrin save rand.

[Mr Ares]

I think Mat is going to be killed by a Foresaken who is then balefired and so then he can "die and live again".

Again? Wasn't it happening in FoH enough?

 

I think that Rand will have to unite both the male and female Aes Sedai, and they all link, (equally, none of this "let's have all the Ashaman take control of all the female Aes Sedai and occupy the White Tower" rubbish)as well as all the sul'dam and damane linking with Aes Sedai and Wise Ones and Kin - all the channellers link to break the last seal on the Dark One's prison, then the Dark One battles with Rand, Rand dies to weaken the Dark One enough so that he can be sealed again. This time with thirteen seals.

Because if it went wrong before, doing the same thing again, only with more people is sure to work.

[ElusiveAthena]

Yeah, but he didn't actually die - he was just half-strangled and then resuscitated by Rand. Also that happens in The Shadow Rising, not The Fires of Heaven.

 

I think it will, because the whole thing about the Wheel of Time is that things keep repeating themselves. Also, when the Dark One was first sealed, the female Aes Sedai did not help. Also there were only 7 seals on the Dark One's prison. Now if 13 seems to be a magic number - it takes 13 to gentle a man, to turn a male or female Aes Sedai to the Dark One, 13 is the maximum linkage of female Aes Sedai without adding men... I think 13 seals on the Dark One's prison sounds reasonable.

[Suttree]

Yeah, but he didn't actually die - he was just half-strangled and then resuscitated by Rand. Also that happens in The Shadow Rising, not The Fires of Heaven.

 

Correct about the hanging in TSR but in TFoH Mat was killed by lightning and then brought back when Rand balefired Rahvin. Fits a bit better don't you think?

 

I think it will, because the whole thing about the Wheel of Time is that things keep repeating themselves. Also, when the Dark One was first sealed, the female Aes Sedai did not help.

 

Which was a lucky thing per RJ as Saidar would have been tainted as well. The plan was flawed and Rand knows it, that is why he says he can't attempt to seal it the same way and needs Min to find the answers for him.

[ElusiveAthena]

I'm still in the process of re-reading The Fires of Heaven - so I must have forgotten that part - my apologies, all.

 

I can't think of any other solution - because The Dark One, as evil incarnate, is obviously not going to be killed. However, if he's let out for good... Unless Rand manages to summon the Creator to bind the Dark One like he was supposedly done at "the instant of creation". Maybe the whole world will die, as the end of an Age, and be re-created again? Because clearly there is "an Age yet to come" as some have called the Fourth Age "an Age long past". But then, all the Aiel will die, and "a remnant of a remnant will be saved". And (I'm getting ahead of myself) but I seem to recall something about the former damane going to "help Rand die"? Argh! Maybe I should stop speculating and trust Robert Jordan's vision. :P Everything I say is going to be way off, and I'll just embarrass myself. But I still think "become part of what was, and what will be" means the Great Hunt. I mean, new heroes get to join right? Even if Mat is actually a reborn hero (and perhaps Nynaeve is too?) :?

[Suttree]

I can't think of any other solution - because The Dark One, as evil incarnate, is obviously not going to be killed. However, if he's let out for good... Unless Rand manages to summon the Creator to bind the Dark One like he was supposedly done at "the instant of creation". Maybe the whole world will die, as the end of an Age, and be re-created again? Because clearly there is "an Age yet to come" as some have called the Fourth Age "an Age long past". But then, all the Aiel will die, and "a remnant of a remnant will be saved". And (I'm getting ahead of myself) but I seem to recall something about the former damane going to "help Rand die"? Argh! Maybe I should stop speculating and trust Robert Jordan's vision. :P Everything I say is going to be way off, and I'll just embarrass myself. But I still think "become part of what was, and what will be" means the Great Hunt. I mean, new heroes get to join right? Even if Mat is actually a reborn hero (and perhaps Nynaeve is too?) :?

 

I think one option is not to put a patch on the prison but redo it completely. That would fit with Herid Fel's thoughts...

 

Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's Prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age."

 

Seeing how he was killed for something he was researching and Min is not studying his books it could be along those lines.

 

As for embarrassing yourself? Join the club, everyone on DM has been there at one time or another, welcome to the boards!

[Guest PiotrekS]

I don't understand this argument. If that makes me look dumb, then sorry, I should go to sleep

 

I understand the prison was originall made by the Creator. Then the hole was made by Lanfear and Beidomon and later the patch by LTT and Hundred Companions.

 

If that's so, and LTT thinks that the failure was a result of his thinking that "humans could match the Creator", it means that his acivities should now focus on summoning the Creator and asking him to remake the prison.If time is a wheel and the Creator made a prison that was whole, doesn't a new, whole prison also require Creator's intervention?

[SylvanFox]

Maybe Rand has to get all creation to help him seal the DO away, since apparently that's creation's function. So when the soldiers are all fighting/already fought the LB, Rand will be doing Rand stuff and everybody else gets to hold hands and sing the Tinkers' song as a symbol of their solidarity in closing up the Bore. I suppose they'd have to kill all the DFs.

[Mr Ares]

I think it will, because the whole thing about the Wheel of Time is that things keep repeating themselves. Also, when the Dark One was first sealed, the female Aes Sedai did not help. Also there were only 7 seals on the Dark One's prison. Now if 13 seems to be a magic number - it takes 13 to gentle a man, to turn a male or female Aes Sedai to the Dark One, 13 is the maximum linkage of female Aes Sedai without adding men... I think 13 seals on the Dark One's prison sounds reasonable.

It doesn't take thirteen to gentle a man except by AS custom - it can be done by one alone. It also takes 26 (including the 13 Myrddraal) to turn someone to the Shadow. 13 is just a number. Given that the method used was flawed, then trying that method again is rather silly. What is needed is a different approach to last time, not a repeat of the same mistake. Time is cyclical, but it doesn't repeat exactly, and those cycles take thousands of years.

 

 

As for embarrassing yourself? Join the club, everyone on DM has been there at one time or another, welcome to the boards!

Everyone? Surely you mean everyone except Mr Ares.

 

I don't understand this argument. If that makes me look dumb, then sorry, I should go to sleep

 

I understand the prison was originall made by the Creator. Then the hole was made by Lanfear and Beidomon and later the patch by LTT and Hundred Companions.

 

If that's so, and LTT thinks that the failure was a result of his thinking that "humans could match the Creator", it means that his acivities should now focus on summoning the Creator and asking him to remake the prison.If time is a wheel and the Creator made a prison that was whole, doesn't a new, whole prison also require Creator's intervention?

The failure to seal the Bore was not a result of humans thinking they could match the Creator - that sounds more like despair talking than a rational judgement. Rand seems to understand now that what he did last time was wrong, but currently lacks an understanding of what the correct way to fix things is. He's searching for such a plan now (rather, Min is). The Creator made a prison that was whole, but humans figured out a way to change what the Creator made. They created the Bore to begin with. While that doesn't necessarily mean they can fix things, it is possible that they can repair the damage. Trying to summon the Creator is a somewhat flawed plan - how would they even begin getting in contact with him? plus, of course, simply asking the Creator to fix things is abdicating responsibility for their own actions. "Excuse me, God? We've cocked things up a little - I don't suppose you'd mind doing a bit of the old ex machina stuff to put it all right again? Cheers, humanity."

[Guest PiotrekS]

[The failure to seal the Bore was not a result of humans thinking they could match the Creator - that sounds more like despair talking than a rational judgement. Rand seems to understand now that what he did last time was wrong, but currently lacks an understanding of what the correct way to fix things is. He's searching for such a plan now (rather, Min is). The Creator made a prison that was whole, but humans figured out a way to change what the Creator made. They created the Bore to begin with. While that doesn't necessarily mean they can fix things, it is possible that they can repair the damage. Trying to summon the Creator is a somewhat flawed plan - how would they even begin getting in contact with him? plus, of course, simply asking the Creator to fix things is abdicating responsibility for their own actions. "Excuse me, God? We've cocked things up a little - I don't suppose you'd mind doing a bit of the old ex machina stuff to put it all right again? Cheers, humanity."

 

Now we have the letter brilliantly written, we need only to deliver it!

 

I agree with you. what conclusions do you draw though from Fel's argument about circular nature of time? There seem to be two options:

1) the prision is made whole again by humans, which means that it is "the second" time it is whole in a particular cycle (first one being prision's creation by the Creator). How would we get to the moment when the Creator creates a new prison though?

2) the prison can be made whole only by the Creator, we have no clues it has been succesfully accomplished by humans in past turnings of the wheel. Therefore, the Creator needs to intervene now and the cycle will begin anew, with the whole prison waiting for the new Bore to be drilled.

[lordofsoup]

It wouldnt be a bad ending if my favorite characters die, I dont know that might make me cry, its never happened to me before in a book or movie, so I dont know. But WoT is such a big deal, it might be the first time. But if no one dies, there will be a problem. Harry potter killed off like 4 minor characters in the final battle, too few. Everyone else did not matter at all, or I didnt care if they died or not, Plus WoT is way bigger there better be a lot of death before the end. If the world is supposed to break again, people need to die.

[Bavarian Raven]

This:

 

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

 

 

Followed by the scene where Rand and his father are strolling down the road with the cart full of cider and rand sees the clad rider following them...etc...etc...

 

~

 

So long as he doesn't pull a steven king dark tower ending... (it worked for the dark tower series), here, it would be disturbing though XD

[Suttree]

This:

 

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

 

 

Followed by the scene where Rand and his father are strolling down the road with the cart full of cider and rand sees the clad rider following them...etc...etc...

 

It doesn't really work like that. It would be the "Dragon Soul" but not Rand as there are subtle changes...

 

RJ

- I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.

[Guest PiotrekS]

It is funny but the quote you posted Suttree made me think about evolution. If there are small changes with accumulate with time, as is apparent from this:

but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent

 

Then it might be that the basic pattern itself might change with enough turnings. I know RJ said it didn't in the same quote, but it might be an interesting direction to go in alternate WOT

[Mr Ares]

The failure to seal the Bore was not a result of humans thinking they could match the Creator - that sounds more like despair talking than a rational judgement. Rand seems to understand now that what he did last time was wrong, but currently lacks an understanding of what the correct way to fix things is. He's searching for such a plan now (rather, Min is). The Creator made a prison that was whole, but humans figured out a way to change what the Creator made. They created the Bore to begin with. While that doesn't necessarily mean they can fix things, it is possible that they can repair the damage. Trying to summon the Creator is a somewhat flawed plan - how would they even begin getting in contact with him? plus, of course, simply asking the Creator to fix things is abdicating responsibility for their own actions. "Excuse me, God? We've cocked things up a little - I don't suppose you'd mind doing a bit of the old ex machina stuff to put it all right again? Cheers, humanity."

 

Now we have the letter brilliantly written, we need only to deliver it!

 

I agree with you. what conclusions do you draw though from Fel's argument about circular nature of time? There seem to be two options:

1) the prision is made whole again by humans, which means that it is "the second" time it is whole in a particular cycle (first one being prision's creation by the Creator). How would we get to the moment when the Creator creates a new prison though?

2) the prison can be made whole only by the Creator, we have no clues it has been succesfully accomplished by humans in past turnings of the wheel. Therefore, the Creator needs to intervene now and the cycle will begin anew, with the whole prison waiting for the new Bore to be drilled.

I would say it is more likely the first option. Given RJ has said that humanity is on their own and the Creator won't be interfering to save everyone, I think we can safely say that option 2 is ruled out. But I don't think that the Creator needs to make a new prison at any stage - he did it once, when he created the Wheel. That's it. And each time the prison is damaged, it is repaired. Made whole again, good as new. LTT had a damaged prison and he hastily slapped a patch on it, he didn't repair the damage. Provided humans can repair the damage, then the prison does not need to be remade by the Creator, it doesn't need to be created anew each cycle.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Mr Ares, isn't what you say a little at odds with the circular nature of time, where everthing that happened, must happen again and again?

 

I guess you could say that the act of the very beginning - the creation of the wheel itself and the prison - is exempt from that rule. It might make sense. Then we would have generally linear time that applies to the Creator and "within" that time, so to speak, circular time of the Wheel that applies to all who are within the Pattern. Which would mean both the Creator and the DO are in fact acting in linear time and are not bound to constant repetition. Maybe less elegant than a simple principle of either circular/linear time, but possible.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, isn't what you say a little at odds with the circular nature of time, where everthing that happened, must happen again and again?

 

I guess you could say that the act of the very beginning - the creation of the wheel itself and the prison - is exempt from that rule. It might make sense. Then we would have generally linear time that applies to the Creator and "within" that time, so to speak, circular time of the Wheel that applies to all who are within the Pattern. Which would mean both the Creator and the DO are in fact acting in linear time and are not bound to constant repetition. Maybe less elegant than a simple principle of either circular/linear time, but possible.

Shai'tan and the Creator stand outside the Wheel, they are not threads in the Pattern, and therefore their actions are not subject to the same cycles as everyone else.

[Guest PiotrekS]

That makes sense.