A new mystery to solve...

[Cybertrolloc]

But exactly who is this unnamed confederate through whom he is negotiating with Bashere? Since when did Logain have any confidantes or confederates? He doesn't even trust the Two AS he's bonded enough to let them know what he's up to.

We know those two Aes Sedai aren't trustworthy, Logain has reason to suspect so but keeps them on a pretty tight leash. Also, Logain has had a posse almost since he arrived at the Black Tower ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... it truly does seem obvious to me. After the attack, Bashere wants to report to Rand. Logain also obviously wanted to find Rand, for his own reasons. He had reason to believe Bashere might know where Rand is, so he approaches Bashere. Bashere doesn't agree, but doesn't completely put Logain off either (Logain's reason to stick around for a bit). After the attack, in the prelude to CoT, the next time we see Bashere is ... in chapter 24, with Logain, who brought him to Rand. No great mystery there ...

 

They both have reasons to work together, and they're next found in each other's company ...

 

Out of curiousity, do you have another candidate in mind for this apparently ultra-mysterious person?

[Bob T Dwarf]

No I don't. I asked hoping somebody else had seen something I missed.

 

I'm left, now, with just one more straw in the wind.

 

I'll give all of you that it sure looks like it should be Logain, but as I've said, the timeline and the combination of both Logain's own character traits and how closely Taim was watching him just don't work for me.

 

As nearly as I can tell, both from what we know of Logain, and the sense of him that Gabrelle had when we leave him, he would have been long gone before Bashere reached his decision.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'll give all of you that it sure looks like it should be Logain, but as I've said, the timeline and the combination of both Logain's own character traits and how closely Taim was watching him just don't work for me.

 

As nearly as I can tell, both from what we know of Logain, and the sense of him that Gabrelle had when we leave him, he would have been long gone before Bashere reached his decision.

 

Not if Bashere had given him some reason to stay around for a bit in the course of their conversation. Obviously he hadn't said "No, I won't have anything to do with you," or he wouldn't have expected Tumad to be able to readily find him. Its not like he sent Tumad to find him a week later or anything. Besides, where else would Logain go?

 

Sorry ... I just think you're making something out of nothing here.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I may be.

 

But, we still have the problem of how Logain could have approached Bashere to begin with. Taim was watching Logain for certain. He was also most likely keeping a close eye on Bashere. So, how did Logain secretly approach Bashere? And, what made Bashere think he could secretly reach Logain?

 

Where else would Logain go? Cairhien.

 

That was the most recent place where Rand was known to have been.

 

Logain is convenient, but there are just too many holes in how it would have worked.

[Bob T Dwarf]

CoT - Ch. 24 - A strengthening Storm:

The manor house and all of its outlying buildings were crowded, now. It had seemed inevitable that sooner or later someone would try using the Warders left in Cairhien; their Aes Sedai had not blared that they were going off to find the Dragon Reborn, but neither had they been particularly secretive. Even so, he had never anticipated those who arrived with them. Davram Bashere with a hundred of his Saldaean light horse, dismounting in a wind-driven soaking rain and muttering about ruined saddles. Over half a dozen black-coated Asha'man who for some reason had not shielded themselves from the downpour. They rode with Bashere, but it had been like two parties arriving, a little distance between them always, a strong whiff of watchful wariness. And one of the Asha'man was Logain Ablar. Logain! An Asha'man, wearing the sword and Dragon on his collar! Bashere and Logain both wanted to talk to him, but not in front of anyone, especially each other it seemed. Unexpected or not though they were hardly the most surprising of visitors. He had thought the eight Aes Sedai must be more friends of Cadsuane, yet he would swear she had been as surprised as he to see most of them. Odder, all but one seemed to be with the Asha'man! Not prisoners, and certainly not guards, but Logain had been reluctant to explain with Bashere present, and Bashere reluctant to leave Logain the first chance to talk to Rand alone....

 

That does not seem to me to be a description for a group of people who are traveling together by mutual pre-arrangement. Neither group trusts the other and neither wants to be in the company of the other. I can conceive of no basis upon which Logain would trust Bashere. Not even, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." The circumstances of their arrival gives the lie to that. It's unlikely that he trusted the other Asha'man who had bonded AS enough to let them know where he intended going before they setoff.

 

I can only read it as separate groups who were forced to travel together through the accident of being in Cairhien at the same time and having the same need.

[KaptainKaos]

First of all Bob you are stuck in your box again without any hope of looking outside it ever so it is pretty pointless for me to even be posting right now but hey I'm bored so what do you expect... Anyway, the quote you reference is to me pretty self explanatory you have a group arriving that is described to look like two separate groups, one group essentially of Bashere's soldiers and another of the Asha'man. This is really odd considering what most Borderlanders know about a man who can channel and how much he can be trusted why would they act that way toward a man who can channel?(Note the heavy sarcasm)It just doesn't make any sense for the soldier's to not be walking with men who in their minds could go insane on the spot and start killing(most of us don't need reminding but not everyone knows/believes that saidin is actually cleansed).

 

Also in response to the second bolded part you have quoted obviously Bashere and Logain each know something of the other's extensive need to speak with Rand. I also have to mention something about what you said at the end of your post about both of the groups arriving in Cairhien at the same time is so far beyond an oversight it's insane. If they arrived separately to see Rand Logain would have arrived through a gateway within at least ten miles of Rand and Bashere would have had to march his hundred men apart from his full force across a lot of miles to randomly meet where Logain was coming out of a gateway with his Asha'man. Basically the way you interpret this quote is how you interpret just about everything in this series, wait there is no interpretation from your end of things it is just translation from what actually happens to what you say happens so that you can argue against it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

KK -

 

If you bothered to read the quoted chapter, then you would know that it was Bashere who managed to convince Sashelle and Sorilea to let the Warders go. Logain would have been stuck in Cairhien until Bashere arrived.

 

He'd still be stuck there IF Bashere had not arrived.

 

What Logain would not do is approach Bashere outside Caemlyn in the first place. Circumstance forced them together in Cairhien. Bashere had the Warders that were needed. Logain had the channelers that could shorten the travel time. Both felt they had urgent news for Rand. Both needed to find Rand, and they now needed each other in order to do so quickly.

 

But, that wouldn't have been apparent to either of them before they arrived - quite separately - in Cairhien. Given the timeline of the events - as Jordan wrote them - it wouldn't even have been possible.

[Cybertrolloc]

They rode with Bashere, but it had been like two parties arriving, a little distance between them always, a strong whiff of watchful wariness.

 

Trying to think where we've seen this before...how about every time Ashamen go anywhere with non-Ashamen?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Which proves what, exactly?

 

Logain is well aware of that suspicion. So, why exactly is it that he'd approach Bashere... one man he can be very certain would hold him in the utmost suspicion? A man who would not be inclined to deal with any False Dragon.

 

Because you want everything to be tied up neatly in pretty pink bows?

 

No. They got driven together in Caihien only when it became apparent that each had what the other needed - Bashere, the Warders who could pinpoint Rand and Logain and the other Asha'man to make the gateways.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That does not seem to me to be a description for a group of people who are traveling together by mutual pre-arrangement.

 

Excuse me? Because they were riding in two groups with a small space between them? Please, PLEASE tell me you're not serious. How did Bashere get to Rand if he didn't Travel? Are you saying he Travelled with someone else, but then just happened to ride in within a couple hundred feet of Logain's party? Or that they Travelled together without reaching some kind of arrangement?

 

Please. That is seriously the weakest argument I've ever seen from you, and that is saying something ...

 

So, why exactly is it that he'd approach Bashere... one man he can be very certain would hold him in the utmost suspicion?

 

What reason does Bashere have to be any more or less suspicious of Asha'man in general, or Logain in particular? Bashere has been known to work with a former false Dragon who ravaged his own country (Taim), why would Logain expect him to balk at working with him?

 

They got driven together in Caihien only when it became apparent that each had what the other needed - Bashere, the Warders who could pinpoint Rand and Logain and the other Asha'man to make the gateways.

 

Thats as much of a reason for them to work together immediately after the raid on Bashere's tent as it is at any other time and place.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No it isn't.

 

Now you want them both to be clairvoyant, and time travelers besides. They're Bashere and Logain, not Dr. Who.

 

Neither knows exactly what situation they'll face in Cairhien. Neither can know that Rand's whereabouts are totally unknown. Until that fact is established - and it won't be until they actually get to Cairhien - neither can begin to form a plan to solve that problem.

 

Neither knows exactly who is with Rand. Neither knows that some of those Aes Sedai left Warders behind. It is only after they learn those two things that Logain's own experience with the Warder bond can come into play and provide a way to proceed.

 

Until they get to Cairhien, neither would have any need nor any inclination to work with the other.

 

Once Bashere works out that he needs the Warders to provide a heading to follow, he needs Logain to make the gateways. Logain, in turn, needs the Warders that are only available to Bashere to provide direction and distance estimates for the gateways.

 

It's a shotgun wedding. Arranged on-the-spot. After they both independently reach Cairhien and discover that they need each other.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK. Lets get everyone's starting positions. The Warders are in Cairhien, Bashere is with his army outside of Caemlyn, and Logain is in the Black Tower. Given those starting positions, here is a perfectly logical sequence that matches what we know in the books.

 

Logain is likely to know that Rand is not, in fact, in Cairhien, or Caemlyn, or any of his usual spots, beacuse Taim has been looking for him, and if he was in Cairhien, he would be easy to find. Logain may think that Bashere is likely to know where Rand is, since he is building an army for Rand, and Rand has trusted Bashere in cases where he hasn't trusted Taim (like the war in Illian). Also, since Logain is carrying information to Rand that is prejudicial against Taim, Bashere is likely to be sympathetic. So, Logain goes to see Bashere. Logain says, "I want to find Rand, there's some things going on at the BT he needs to know about." Bashere says something to the effect of "I may know a way to find him, I'm not sure whether I should lead you to him though ... let me think about it for a day or two." Then, the very next day, someone raids Bashere's tent, most likely to steal the seal they think Bashere is guarding. So, Bashere sends Tumad to Logain, and says "Lets go find him." Even though Bashere doesn't know where Rand is, Logain agrees to take him, because some of Rand's followers know and have worked with Bashere, and are more likely to tell him something than they are to tell Logain. They go to Cairhien, the last place where Rand was reported to be, and find the Warders, who lead them to Rand.

 

Now, the only thin part of that sequence is Logain's reason for taking Bashere along ... but frankly, any reason is even more thin if they reach Cairhien separately. If they got to Cairhien separately, why would Logain take Bashere at all? Logain got to Cairhien in the same chapter (prologue) that Bashere sent Tumad to find the "mysterious person". If Bashere had to go to Cairhien on his own, it would have taken days to ride. Was Logain sitting on his butt for no apparent reason while Bashere rode to Cairhien?

 

The only reason for Bashere and Logain to reach Rand together is because of some accomodation, and the only logical place for them to reach that accomodation is at Bashere's camp near Caemlyn. The timeline works against them reaching Cairhien at the same time independently, and Logain has no reason to wait for Bashere if they arrive separately.

[Guest Majsju]

Now, the only thin part of that sequence is Logain's reason for taking Bashere along ...

 

Well, there is survival instinct. Logain knows Asha'man tried to kill Rand, he does carry his past of being a false dragon, and he does not have a clue how much the taint has started to influence Rand.

So it might not be the best of ideas to appear on Rands doorstep from out of the blue, and hope that Rand has the sense to not blast him to smithereens before giving him a chance to speak up.

 

But to arrive with the man Rand trusts enough to have him in command of Rands army, that improves the odds of actually getting to talk to Rand before something unpleasant happens.

"Hey, I'm Logain, I used to call myself the dragon reborn, but I'm nice nooarrrrgh!..."

[RobertAlexWillis]

But to arrive with the man Rand trusts enough to have him in command of Rands army, that improves the odds of actually getting to talk to Rand before something unpleasant happens.

"Hey, I'm Logain, I used to call myself the dragon reborn, but I'm nice nooarrrrgh!..."

 

Not only can I buy that, but that gives Logain even more reason to seek out Bashere at his Caemlyn camp. Then they travel to Cairhien together, etc.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Logain is likely to know that Rand is not, in fact, in Cairhien, or Caemlyn, or any of his usual spots, beacuse Taim has been looking for him, and if he was in Cairhien, he would be easy to find. Logain may think that Bashere is likely to know where Rand is, since he is building an army for Rand, and Rand has trusted Bashere in cases where he hasn't trusted Taim (like the war in Illian). Also, since Logain is carrying information to Rand that is prejudicial against Taim, Bashere is likely to be sympathetic. So, Logain goes to see Bashere. Logain says, "I want to find Rand, there's some things going on at the BT he needs to know about." Bashere says something to the effect of "I may know a way to find him, I'm not sure whether I should lead you to him though ... let me think about it for a day or two." Then, the very next day, someone raids Bashere's tent, most likely to steal the seal they think Bashere is guarding. So, Bashere sends Tumad to Logain, and says "Lets go find him." Even though Bashere doesn't know where Rand is, Logain agrees to take him, because some of Rand's followers know and have worked with Bashere, and are more likely to tell him something than they are to tell Logain. They go to Cairhien, the last place where Rand was reported to be, and find the Warders, who lead them to Rand.

 

Very logical reasoning. I really like it.

 

The only things that stand in the way are Logain's circumstances, his character, and the timing.

 

Let's say he manages to work past his own arrogance and admit that he actually needs somebody else for something. That let's him approach Bashere secretly - if he is able.

 

We have no indication that he has that much freedom prior to being granted permission to go "recruiting".

 

Put yourself in Logain's place. You've got intel that you are convinced Rand needs to know. In order to get that intel to him you NEED for Taim to turn you loose. Are you going to jeopardize that by doing anything that even hints at conspiracy with Taim's biggest adversary, Bashere?

 

I don't think so. The only way he could even think about approaching Bashere is if he knew some ironclad way to do it in secret. There aint no such way. So how does Logain approach Bashere with his little proposal? Especially when realizing his plan is entirely conditional on Taim's approval - which he doesn't yet have, and may never get?

 

As to why he would wait in Cairhien. Where else is he going to go? Nobody has a clue where Rand might be. Sashelle and Sorilea aren't going to give him no steenkin Warders.

 

He's stuck. All he can do is gnash his teeth and wait. Either for word of Rand's whereabouts or for Rand himself. Bashere showing up is a godsend for him. While they don't like or trust each other, they do have a mutual need and can assist each other in satisfying it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We have no indication that he has that much freedom prior to being granted permission to go "recruiting".

 

I'm sorry ... do we know that Logain only got permission to go "recruiting" after he approached Bashere? I rather think he gets permission to go "recruiting" so that he CAN approach Bashere. Once out from under Taim's nose, there's no indication that it would take more than a couple of days to find Bashere, take him to Cairhien, get the Warders, and go to Rand.

 

He's stuck. All he can do is gnash his teeth and wait. Either for word of Rand's whereabouts or for Rand himself. Bashere showing up is a godsend for him. While they don't like or trust each other, they do have a mutual need and can assist each other in satisfying it

 

A couple of posts ago, you were using his impatience to say he wouldn't wait one day to hear back from Bashere, and now you're saying he would wait for several days in Cairhien without even knowing anything is likely to change?

 

Come on ...

 

The only way he could even think about approaching Bashere is if he knew some ironclad way to do it in secret.

 

How about "Lets go off to the side here where no one can see us and talk". Thats more likely to work outside in the countryside outside Camelyn that anywhere in Carihien. Remember Cairhien's slogan "Cairhien, where even the floors have ears."

 

There is no reason Logain would not expect to be able to see Bashere, and no reason for him not to expect Bashere to be sympathetic, especially since Logain's intel is regarding Mazrim Taim.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That ignores a couple of important points.

 

In an earlier book, it was pointed out that Bashere was forming a secondary force from those men who had made their way to the Black Tower and failed the testing. What better way for Taim to plant spies on his adversary?

 

Logain has every reason to suspect that any visit he made to Bashere would immediately be seen and reported back to Taim. After all, he first has to pass the guards. Logain Ablar showing up at the edge of camp would cause quite a stir. When we leave Logain in the Prologue, he's on his way to round up his people and get going. Logain Ablar showing up at the edge of camp with a bunch of Asha'man and Aes Sedai would cause a furor. Bye, bye secrecy in either case.

 

I was waiting for someone to come to the conclusion that the events in the Prologue take place over more than one day. That is a possibility. Logain's scene may have been more than a day before Bashere's.

 

But, how would that work? Logain is supposedly eager to go recruiting. He gets permission to do so. Then he and all of those with him hang around somewhere nearby? Whoever contacted Bashere left a location at which he could be reached. Somewhere close enough that Tumad could get there in an afternoon - on horseback - through the snow - without leaving a trail. Where is it that's that close to Bashere's camp that hasn't had the bejesus recruited out of it already?

 

So, Logain can't go to the camp. He can't stay at the Black Tower - he's eager to get away and he just got permission to leave - he can't hang around close by - that just screams, "I was lying!", and invites an attack by Taim and his devotees. So, how did he contact Bashere? And, where is Bashere supposed to get back to him?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was waiting for someone to come to the conclusion that the events in the Prologue take place over more than one day. That is a possibility. Logain's scene may have been more than a day before Bashere's.

 

There's no reason to believe that except to support your theory that they arrived separately ...

 

In an earlier book, it was pointed out that Bashere was forming a secondary force from those men who had made their way to the Black Tower and failed the testing. What better way for Taim to plant spies on his adversary?

 

Taim could just as well have spies in Cairhien. The "Taim might find out" argument could be made wherever they meet. The woods have lots more private places to talk than the city of Cairhien. And besides, the way he waltzed into Cairhien later, it doesn't seem like he's terribly worried about secrecy.

 

Logain has every reason to suspect that any visit he made to Bashere would immediately be seen and reported back to Taim. After all, he first has to pass the guards. Logain Ablar showing up at the edge of camp would cause quite a stir. When we leave Logain in the Prologue, he's on his way to round up his people and get going. Logain Ablar showing up at the edge of camp with a bunch of Asha'man and Aes Sedai would cause a furor. Bye, bye secrecy in either case.

 

You're assuming Logain had to go into the camp personally. He brought six of his followers with him. To the rest of the camp, they would be nothing more than anonymous Soldiers or Dedicated, and Bashere has gotten messages from people like that before. Or heck, Logain could send one of his Aes Sedai. Setting up a meeting without entering the camp would not be difficult, and its easier to hide in the woods outside Caemlyn than in the Palace of Cairhien. Setting up the meeting is not a serious problem.

 

But, how would that work? Logain is supposedly eager to go recruiting. He gets permission to do so. Then he and all of those with him hang around somewhere nearby?

 

They didn't stay very long, less than two days at most. And how would Taim know if they Travelled ten miles or a thousand? I doubt Logain made the gateway right there in front of him. For that matter, he could have Travelled to Shienar, and then turned around and come back near Camelyn, if he was that worried about throwing Taim off.

 

Where is it that's that close to Bashere's camp that hasn't had the bejesus recruited out of it already?

 

That would only be a consideration is Logain was actually going recruiting, which we know he wasn't.

 

So, Logain can't go to the camp.

 

You haven't even come CLOSE to proving that.

[Kaznen]

In an earlier book, it was pointed out that Bashere was forming a secondary force from those men who had made their way to the Black Tower and failed the testing. What better way for Taim to plant spies on his adversary?

 

 

That "secondary force" is The Legion of the Dragon. And given what Taim thinks of non-channlers it is unlikly he recruited darkfriends from their ranks.

 

Remember they joined to serve the DR, testing came after they signed on.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That "secondary force" is The Legion of the Dragon. And given what Taim thinks of non-channlers it is unlikly he recruited darkfriends from their ranks.

 

Well, to be fair, Taim wouldn't even have to recruit new Darkfriends, he could just plant some fellas who are already Darkfriends in the group, and there's no reason he wouldn't. But unless all those spies know Logain, his six followers, and all their bonded Aes Sedai all on sight, spies in the camp aren't going to force Logain to avoid it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's no reason to believe that except to support your theory that they arrived separately ...

 

No, no, no, no, no... it's what's needed to support your theory. Bashere was approached the day before his scene. "...the man who came to me yesterday...". Which is also why Logain couldn't have sent an Aes Sedai. It was a man not a woman who came.

 

So, in order for your theory to even begin to work, Logain's scene has to happen one or more days before Bashere's scene. But, we have no indication, whatsoever, that the two scenes don't happen during the same day.

 

That is the trouble with the timeline for your version. In your version, Logain get's his clearance to leave, so he's now free to approach Bashere if there was only some way to do so in secret. But, it's already too late. Bashere was approached the day before. Unless, Logain is really Dr. Who, and has a Tardis up his sleeve.

 

That's why I can't buy your version of the events. Logain had no idea when or if Taim would allow him to leave. Until Taim does so, Logain can't approach Bashere - and I still don't buy that he'd be inclined to do so, anyway. But, so far as we can tell from Jordan's narrative, Logain doesn't get that clearance until the day after Bashere was approached. Ergo, he who approached Bashere was not Logain, nor anyone representing Logain.

 

Day 1: Some unknown man approaches Bashere with a proposal. He leaves a location at which he can be contacted if Bashere decides to accept, implying he's prepared to wait indefinitely.

 

Day 2 - morning: Logain gets clearance to go recruiting. He immediately sets off for parts unknown. He's waiting for no one.

 

Day 2 - afternoon: Bashere discovers his tent has been ransacked. He then - and only then - decides to accept whatever was proposed the day before. By this time Logain is long gone.

[Kaznen]

I don't think there are any DFs in the LoD and tBotRH. The Legion because it is made up of rag tag bumpkin villagers and I don't think DFs would stand being in that group. If the Band, they would have tried to kill Mat by now.

 

Plus the Band's to kewl to let DFs in. And they 100% loyal to Mat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Who says they have to be Darkfriends?

 

They just have to be Soldiers or Dedicated who are willing to carry out a clandestine mission for the M'hael. That means any Asha'man at the BT.

[Cybertrolloc]

It's the prologue to CoT, the timeline is all over the place even though it's only a few scenes. Even taking the ones from what's her name (sister bonded to Logain), Bashere and the Aes Sedai with Sashelle...I don't think it fits that it's the same day. The attacks on Bashere and Dobraine both happened around midday at the same time in that case (there's enough distance between Carhein and Caemlyn for them to remark about the sun's position being noticeably different when traveling between the two, so the Dobraine one would have been earlier and Logain would had have to have left immediately for Carhien when we last see him). Assuming the prologue is mostly pre-cleansing by a little bit (no one mentions that I recall), it's about 2 weeks between these scenes and Logain + Bashere + whomever showing up in Tear.

 

Also, remember that Taim and his coterie are dismissive of what Logain's been doing at the tower (teaching basic woodscraft and so on). Get the feeling that they don't take that much interest? Also Logain has leads the Rand loyalist side of the tower...see the Logain portions previously, Logain is getting info from somewhere. Plus he or any of his friends are a footstep away from anywhere at any time.

 

Bashere mentioned he had discussed some other things with Mat that he wanted to try with the Dragon legion too, I don't think we have many hints about what they may be. Plus whatever improvements Bashere made to his strategies from the PoD campaign into the Seanchan held lands. Also don't forget the talks and letters Rand left before he went to Far Madding as well.