The Horn of Valere and Jain Farstrider

[Kahsm]

Any one of the main characters could be bound to the horn. So far the 2 Ta'veren that we have seen dead or died are heroes of the horn. Good chance all Ta'veren are heroes of the horn. Seems like Ta'veren are spun out for that purpose. After all Mat and Perrin could have just been Ta'veren echo's like the rest of Rand's friends who come into greatness after meeting him.

 

There is also a good chance that Ishy is a hero of the horn. It's at least been confirmed that his soul is tied to Rand.

 

Rand wasn't Ta'veren until just before Moir showed up. And it will likely be removed from him after TG. Anyone can be made ta'veren or have it taken away at the wheel's will. Therefore, it has nothing to do with being a hero, other than the fact heroes might be good choices since they're often up and about.

 

Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview

 

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

And while Brandon said the souls are "often linked" that doesn't make Ishy a hero. The interview database entry actually claims Brandon said many souls are linked. And since I doubt you'd say there are "many" heroes of the horn, it seems regular souls often link together too.

 

Not sure if you saw my hero vs regular soul description. The analogy about trophies on the mantle vs a barrel of generic figures. But linked souls might be like that old-skool game "barrel of monkeys" where sometimes when you you pull out one of the generic souls, it's often linked arm and arm with another.

[FarShainMael]

I've thought about the idea that the universe is destroyed and remade continuously as well, FarShainMael. Again, it's pure speculation when you're talking about that sort of thing just because we don't know enough information about how the Wheel actually works. It sure seems possible, but I'm not sure about it either. I think there's an essential paradox...we have information that the Creator created the Wheel and that there was a moment of creation, but at the same time are told that there are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

 

The question was asked in another thread: what happened to all the objects made of indestructible cuendillar from previous Turnings?

 

If the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times, there should be lots of them. An infinite number, in fact!

 

Since there aren't, there MUST have been a destructive process or event. But what? We know that the seals are crumbling under the DO's touch; but if It can touch the world enough to destroy other items, that's pretty much it for the Wheel anyway!

 

So, I propose that it is consistent with the Wheel concept that, at some point in its turning, there is an event which resets it to some kind of initial state.

 

About the 'moment of creation': I further propose that the Creator's timescale is not the same as that of His creation. Think of Him as a super-programmer. He builds a computer and runs His Wheel-program on it. To the entities inside the program (Rand et al) the Wheel has been turning forever; to the Creator, He set it running mid-UltraFriday afternoon, His time, after a cup of super-coffee..

[Duskfire]

Personally I think all ta`veren are Heroes, but not all Heroes are ta`veren. The two most powerful ta`veren we know of is Rand and Hawkwing, and both are Heroes. I dont see why Mat and Perrin wouldnt be. In fact, I would be surprised if they weren't, particularly Mat, who has so many themes and incarnations and whatnot based around him. Hawkwing not referring to both of them doesnt exclude them; we know so little regarding the Heroes and their relationships with one another as well as the precepts that its hard to really use that as a for or against.

 

Birgitte does get along really well with Mat. And true, they have similar personalities, but it could also mean a whole lot more, knowing RJ. Or it could mean nothing. I like to think it does :P

[Majsju]

 

The question was asked in another thread: what happened to all the objects made of indestructible cuendillar from previous Turnings?

 

If the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times, there should be lots of them. An infinite number, in fact!

 

Since there aren't, there MUST have been a destructive process or event. But what? We know that the seals are crumbling under the DO's touch; but if It can touch the world enough to destroy other items, that's pretty much it for the Wheel anyway!

 

 

 

One explanation could be that when the OP disappears from the world, it affects all items made by/with the help of the OP. So, cuendillar items would no longer be indestructible.

 

To me, that makes a lot more sense than a Big bang in a Wheel that supposedly has neither beginnings nor endings.

[Zhalfirin]

The Wheel of Time is eternal, neither beginning nor ending. We have Rand's PoV telling us of countless thousands of turnings in the past.

 

If it were the case that particularly noteworthy individuals were added, it would imply one of 3 things

 

1. The horn is a recent artifact, created in an age prior to the Age of Legends, called the 1st age by some. An age long past, an age yet to come and the current heros have all been added during the current cycle of the ages, and at some point the horn will be destroyed to be created anew in the next cycle. Probably most were 'boot strapped' into it

 

2. Over time the Horn of Valere would become more and more important and significant, summoning an ever larger army to the field. Implicitly this would mean that when the horn was young, few heroes would have been summoned.

 

I don't buy the concept of an artifact that survives multiple full cycles of the wheel, growing ever more powerful with each occurrence of the 3rd age. It would imply that there was, indeed, a beginning to the wheel of time. Not A beginning, but THE beginning.

 

Just as new people can seemingly be bound to the Horn, I would guess that it is possible for the heroes to be unbound either by their own action or some other event.

 

While the Wheel isn't about good or evil, all the people that are bound to the Horn are seemingly known in stories for heroics and other acts of good. There are no 'dark heroes' bound to the Horn.

 

So if one of the heroes turned to the shadow (willing or unwilling) it could be that they would be cut loose. As the Wheel isn't sentient it would just see them as a threat, and such a close connection to itself would be dangerous.

 

The Shadow seems to try to tempt good people as much as it tries to kill them. Cowin Gemallan was considered a hero until he betrayed Malkier to the Shadow. There are mentions of other renown people who turned to the Shadow (could some the Forsaken at one time have been bound?). So maybe the number of people bound to the Horn remains small because the ranks are changing throughout the turnings of the Wheel with only a few of the greatest among them always staying true. And even if they were unbound, there is nothing to say that couldn't rejoin during a later turning of the Wheel.

[Durinax]

well mat and perrin could be disregarded as heroes because Hawkwing would have referred to them by a name, not as Hornsounder and Flagbearer.

 

as for why only light sided heroes are bound to the horn, could it be because these people would be heroes to everyone? not only to some

[Duskfire]

well mat and perrin could be disregarded as heroes because Hawkwing would have referred to them by a name, not as Hornsounder and Flagbearer.

 

as for why only light sided heroes are bound to the horn, could it be because these people would be heroes to everyone? not only to some

 

Why would he have? For all we know, he isnt allowed to refer to them by name and the Dragon is unique, as he is in so many cases. We know absolutely nothing about the precepts regarding the Horn and the situations regarding the Heroes to use the lack of name as evidence.

[FarShainMael]

 

The question was asked in another thread: what happened to all the objects made of indestructible cuendillar from previous Turnings?

 

If the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times, there should be lots of them. An infinite number, in fact!

 

Since there aren't, there MUST have been a destructive process or event. But what? We know that the seals are crumbling under the DO's touch; but if It can touch the world enough to destroy other items, that's pretty much it for the Wheel anyway!

 

 

 

One explanation could be that when the OP disappears from the world, it affects all items made by/with the help of the OP. So, cuendillar items would no longer be indestructible.

 

I don't think the OP could actually disappear from Randworld, although the ability to handle it might! The most that could happen is that the entire world could be shielded, the way it is in steddings or Far Madding.

 

Do we know if anyone has taken any cuendillar item into either place?

 

To me, that makes a lot more sense than a Big bang in a Wheel that supposedly has neither beginnings nor endings.

 

The Big Bang was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

[Asgard Thorin]

Hawkwing is definitely of the Third Age. Remember, the current Age has lasted around 3,000 years, from the end of the Breaking until the current events. Hawkwing's empire ended around a thousand years before the events taking place with Rand and Co. It certainly falls into the Third Age.

 

But, based on Hawkwing's dialogue in TGH, and the fact that he's bound to the Horn and mentions fighting both along side and against Lews Therin, I'd wager that he's been bound to the Horn for a long time, and Artur Hawkwing was just his latest incarnation in this Age.

 

Also, the Horn is definitely older than the Age of Legends. It was known as an ancient artifact even in the Age of Legends, but was seen only as a myth.

 

I don't think people are added to the Horn too often, so I don't know if Jain Farstrider will be added to the list. Considering there's only around a hundred Heroes of the Horn (at least around that many called in TGH I believe...I'm sure if there's any Heroes that are currently alive when the Horn is sounded, they don't come. At least it didn't happen with Rand), I doubt that they get added very often.

That's if only one age has passed since AOL. Half the time it seems like its one age. The other half the whole wheel has spun round. Yes, history becomes legend, legend myth, et cetera, but is the DR born in every age, or is he only in the third? And when did the AOL stop? End of breaking? Well, the human date for that was purely arbitrary. Perhaps it stopped with the end of the war o' hundred years, the end of the Fall of Man, so to say? We don't know when the wheel goes to the next spoke, as it were. Regardless, I think we'll see Farstrider again, when the horn is blown-or when he escapes through the redstone. (I'm betting it was disassembled because Moiraine and Mat had already used it, not that it was destroyed.) We know Farstrider was injured. Was he killed? A belly wound can take a hideously long time to be fatal, and somehow I doubt the snakeFinn or foxFinn would have been inclined to make it quick out of mercy. Here's what I hope for: snakes keep him alive since he's a minor taveren (better than nothing, especially since he has some link to DO from when Ishy pawned him) To toy with him, they let him run about the Tower of G., but he stumbles on Mat's blood trail (blood is iron) and his own tvrn-ness lets him get to the other Redstone-voila! he's in the Stone of Tear! I could even see that as the final scene of the book. Or he's called back by the Horn; he is the most celebrated hero of recent memory, before the DR anyway, even making some journeies in Shara. Can we be sure he's a t-man, like the Heroes Three? Probably. Remember, Ishamael had to capture him personally (or chose to capture him personally) to make him a pawn. And he did stand the rear guard to let his friends escape. that is a heroic act, and "no man may walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot return to the Light." Especially, if, as I suspect, Farstrider was forced to the shadow in the first place. If he's dead, the horn has claimed him as one of his own, methinks. The one I wonder about is Ingtar. will he be bound to the Horn?

[Luckers]

 

The question was asked in another thread: what happened to all the objects made of indestructible cuendillar from previous Turnings?

 

If the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times, there should be lots of them. An infinite number, in fact!

 

Since there aren't, there MUST have been a destructive process or event. But what? We know that the seals are crumbling under the DO's touch; but if It can touch the world enough to destroy other items, that's pretty much it for the Wheel anyway!

 

 

 

One explanation could be that when the OP disappears from the world, it affects all items made by/with the help of the OP. So, cuendillar items would no longer be indestructible.

 

To me, that makes a lot more sense than a Big bang in a Wheel that supposedly has neither beginnings nor endings.

 

My theory on this is that given its stated that using the One Power on cuendillar makes it stronger, leaving us with the question of how you could quantify the relative strength of something 'indestructable', that the second of the two methods of destroying cuendillar is something known to the Age of Legends Aes Sedai.

 

I've always thought that the most likely case, therefore, is that there is a way to undo the process of making cuendillar, effectively returning it to its base metal, and that exposure to the One Power makes the reversal process more difficult. Still this would allow for the Age of Legends to dispose of cuendillar.

[Leyrann]

 

And talking about the size of an age, it seems more logical to me that they are about 1000 years each - NA is the most current year count, and it stands for "New Age". and its at only 1000 now.

The current Age, which is called the Third Age by some, is older than 1,000 years. In fact, it's older than 3,000 years. The calendars changed after the fall of Hawkwing's empire and after the Trolloc Wars. So AB (after the Breaking) is the first thousand years, followed by 300 years of Trolloc Wars, then another 1,000 years, then hawkwing, then the War of a Hundred Years, then the New Era. Of course, the only Age identified by number is the Third, the Age of Legends is only ever referred to as such, not the Second Age. Once upon a time, a poster put forward the theory that the AoL was actually the first part of the Third Age, not an Age of its own.

 

Sorry, got confused by the dutch translation.... Age is translated the same as Era.

 

If I needed a confirmation on who you are...

 

Welcome to DM.