A Paradigm Shift (for myself at least)

[Roxinos]

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

 

Might have missed it but where do those lesser victories come in to the definition?

 

Exactly where Elci said they did. They are battle victories as opposed to the war victory.

 

(Battle = happenings in the individual world like the Trolloc Wars.

War = Great Lord attempting to get free.)

 

I'd be pissed if I was living in Reality 1, and the bastards in Reality 2 would manage to screw things up so bad that they lost and caused my Reality 1 to be destroyed, too.

 

No, you wouldn't. 'Cause you wouldn't exist. :-p Haha.

[Rose]

Not at all. I would say you aren't taking it far enough. You are still not taking into account what "infinitely many worlds" means. With an infinite number of worlds, it is necessary that the Great Lord win in at least one. As the Great Lord of the Dark need only win once, the concept as is presented (that is, that the Great Lord quite evidently has never won as long as creation has existed) is inherently ridiculous. :)

 

Ah, so that's your point. I agree with that. If victory is a possibility, then an infinite number of possibilities means at least one victory, therefore the DO should have won already. But he hasn't, so victory is not a possibility.

 

So either the Dark One can't win, or when Verin said that the mirror worlds reflected every possible reality, she means every one except one where the Dark One is free.

[Lisa Campbell]

Let's clarify a few things for you, Elci.

 

I'm going to define a few terms.

 

Great Lord wins = breaking free and destroying the Wheel and Pattern.

Great Lord loses = being sealed.

 

If the Great Lord wins in one reality, he breaks free of his prison and destroys the Wheel. Effectively winning in all realities.

 

Infinitely many realities necessitates at least one victory condition and at least one loss condition simultaneously. This is a contradiction and is thus impossible. Thus, the idea of the Great Lord is impossible. Amusing, but impossible as presented.

 

He doesn't exist in any of the worlds because he doesn't exist in the Pattern.

 

Haha, re-read what I wrote, man. I was agreeing. I understand exactly what you are saying and was agreeing. :-p

 

Am I taking this too far ? :p

 

Not at all. I would say you aren't taking it far enough. You are still not taking into account what "infinitely many worlds" means. With an infinite number of worlds, it is necessary that the Great Lord win in at least one. As the Great Lord of the Dark need only win once, the concept as is presented (that is, that the Great Lord quite evidently has never won as long as creation has existed) is inherently ridiculous. :)

 

Rox, while I appreciate your effort to educate me, I think I'll take RJ's definitions of winning and losing over your arbitrary and compacted ones.

 

I get what you guys are debating, I just disagree with a few things. To me, reality is the world where the current war against the Shadow is taking place and even though you can port to some of these mirror worlds that have a greater chance of being a reality, they are still only possibilities. I'm not arguing that the war could take place on any of these worlds, but for this to happen the population in general would have to be present to make it a reality. That is, the mass belief of the population make it reality.

[Jon Paul]

I get what you guys are debating, I just disagree with a few things. To me, reality is the world where the current war against the Shadow is taking place and even though you can port to some of these mirror worlds that have a greater chance of being a reality, they are still only possibilities. I'm not arguing that the war could take place on any of these worlds, but for this to happen the population in general would have to be present to make it a reality. That is, the mass belief of the population make it reality.

 

If it takes mass belief to make a place a reality in the Wheel of Time, how did Rand exist outside of his reality in a mirror world?

[Lisa Campbell]

I get what you guys are debating, I just disagree with a few things. To me, reality is the world where the current war against the Shadow is taking place and even though you can port to some of these mirror worlds that have a greater chance of being a reality, they are still only possibilities. I'm not arguing that the war could take place on any of these worlds, but for this to happen the population in general would have to be present to make it a reality. That is, the mass belief of the population make it reality.

 

If it takes mass belief to make a place a reality in the Wheel of Time, how did Rand exist outside of his reality in a mirror world?

 

Like I said porting to the worlds with a higher probability of being real is possible. It was real to Rand, Hurin and Loial because of their belief in their existance. Kind of like 'I think, therefore I am' mentality.

[Roxinos]

To me, reality is the world where the current war against the Shadow is taking place and even though you can port to some of these mirror worlds that have a greater chance of being a reality, they are still only possibilities.

 

I'd be perfectly fine with that definition...except that's not how it's described in-universe. Here lemme give ya a quote. :D

 

The Dragon Reborn: Chapter 21: A World of Dreams

"...Look here." With one finger, Verin drew a number of parallel lines across the area she had cleared, lines clear in dust atop the old beeswax. "Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way."

 

"The worlds reached by the Portal Stones," Egwene said, to show she had listened to Verin's lectures on the journey from Toman Head. What could this possibly have to do with whether or not she was a Dreamer?

 

"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds--even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed--lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these words, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

 

In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. "In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?" The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.

 

"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."

 

"That does not seem to make sense," Egwene protested.

 

"Paradox, child. The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order."

 

So do Jordan's words soothe you? It is a paradox, a contradiction. Jordan himself knew it, and admitted it, and didn't let it bother him one bit, and you shouldn't let it bother you, either. :) The mirror worlds are not potential realities, they are parallel realities.

[Jon Paul]

Right, so it's all agreed. Suspend disbelief. Massively !

[Suttree]

So do Jordan's words soothe you? It is a paradox, a contradiction. Jordan himself knew it, and admitted it, and didn't let it bother him one bit, and you shouldn't let it bother you, either. :) The mirror worlds are not potential realities, they are parallel realities.

 

Except for the fact that RJ made a distinction between mirror worlds and parallel ones.

[Roxinos]

So, you're basically just ignoring the quote, eh? Okay, that's fine. Even though it expressly describes mirror worlds (worlds accessible through the Portal Stones) as parallel worlds. Go for it. :) Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.

[Lisa Campbell]

So do Jordan's words soothe you? It is a paradox, a contradiction. Jordan himself knew it, and admitted it, and didn't let it bother him one bit, and you shouldn't let it bother you, either. :) The mirror worlds are not potential realities, they are parallel realities.

 

Wasn't bothered, just have a different take on it and decided to join the debate. I know it's a paradox. I guess I just can't help looking at things from a scientific/mathematical point of view which is why we disagree on the difference between potential and parallel worlds.

 

All good though. Nothing wrong with a friendly debate and having opposing opinions.

[Roxinos]

Indeed. I just don't see the need to qualify it any further than what is given to you in the text. If you acknowledge it's a paradox, then why bother with "potential" versus "mirror?"

[Suttree]

So, you're basically just ignoring the quote, eh? Okay, that's fine. Even though it expressly describes mirror worlds (worlds accessible through the Portal Stones) as parallel worlds. Go for it. :) Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.

 

No, but in addition to possible multiple interpretations, we know AS have been proven wrong many times in what they think the know. Now the creator on the other hand?

 

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

Jordan: Possibly.

 

and there are others...

Tamyrlin: This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

[Roxinos]

Semantics.

 

Verin described "mirror worlds" (worlds accessible through the Portal Stones) as parallel lines to our own world. This makes sense as they are alternate realities (in the common parlance sense of the phrase -- that is, realities where different choices at different points led to different results). However, her explanation also includes what Jordan refers to as "parallel" worlds in those quotes you provided.

 

As Verin put it, mirror worlds and parallel worlds are the warp and woof of the weave. Regardless of the terms you wish to use to describe them. Mirror or parallel, the argument stands (as the Great Lord also exists in what you would refer to as parallel worlds, the world of the 'Finns and such).

[FarShainMael]

I'm going to define a few terms.

 

Great Lord wins = breaking free and destroying the Wheel and Pattern.

Great Lord loses = being sealed.

 

If the Great Lord wins in one reality, he breaks free of his prison and destroys the Wheel. Effectively winning in all realities.

 

Infinitely many realities necessitates at least one victory condition and at least one loss condition simultaneously. This is a contradiction and is thus impossible. Thus, the idea of the Great Lord is impossible. Amusing, but impossible as presented.

 

Or at least, the idea of It winning is impossible. Would someone please tell Moridin?

[Dream]

Let me jump in here with my interpretation of the situation starting with a point that everyone seems to agree on but I disagree with.

 

The Wheel is infinite so that means everything that can happen has happened and the Dark One has been simultaneously free and imprisoned in different realities.

 

First of all, the Wheel being infinite does not mean that everything that can happen has happened. The Wheel follows a specific Pattern that happens over and over again. It also has built-in corrective measures that ensure that in the grand scope of things, the same events happen over and over again. The Pattern is not random. Not every possibility is explored.

 

Secondly, the Dark One has never been free in any World. Even in the Worlds where the forces of Light have been decimated, He is not free. In none of the infinite number of Worlds within the Wheel is the Dark One ever free. I contend that the Wheel was built in a way that it cannot even predict its own demise.

 

Finally, this does not mean that the Dark One can never "win". From within the circular Time of the Wheel, the Dark One has never broken free of his prison and never will. But the Dark One exists outside of the Wheel and the Pattern. He does not exist within this circular Time. Where the Dark One resides, Time may be linear or it may not exist at all. From the Dark One's perspective, He just needs to break in once.

 

Once He does, and whether or not He destroys the Wheel, the Pattern as we know it will cease to exist. Once He is free in one World, He is free in all, regardless of what is happening in any other of the infinite Worlds. He does not have to rampage and conquer all the other Worlds. Past, present and future in all Worlds will all be rewritten or erased as the Dark One wills.

[Jon Paul]

The possibility that not every option has been explored in the Pattern is not something I had considered.

[Roxinos]

Oh, it's one I considered. But for the sake of the argument, I ignored it. If the Pattern is infinitely expanding, but finite in age, then it is limited in possibilities. And in that case, the Great Lord winning simply hasn't happened yet.

 

This notion is actually bolstered by Moridin's position that fighting against the Shadow is fruitless as it is inevitable that the Great Lord win at some point. All it means for the Light to win is for the Great Lord to be sealed once more. But there is a cycle, and Moridin knows this. He thinks it's best to just destroy the Pattern and the endless cycle and get it over with. It will happen eventually through simple laws of statistical likelihood.

 

The corrective measures the Wheel takes only applies to the laws of the Pattern itself. The Great Lord's influence bends and breaks those laws. That is why the Great Lord is capable of destroying the Wheel in the first place, he is not subject to the Wheel's influence.

 

That's just Moridin's point of view on the matter. Why he follows the Shadow instead of the Light.

[FarShainMael]

Let me jump in here with my interpretation of the situation starting with a point that everyone seems to agree on but I disagree with.

 

The Wheel is infinite so that means everything that can happen has happened and the Dark One has been simultaneously free and imprisoned in different realities.

 

First of all, the Wheel being infinite does not mean that everything that can happen has happened. The Wheel follows a specific Pattern that happens over and over again. It also has built-in corrective measures that ensure that in the grand scope of things, the same events happen over and over again. The Pattern is not random. Not every possibility is explored.

 

It's inherent in the nature of infinity that it does include everything that is possible.

 

The Pattern may not be random, but at each decision-point (such as Rand deciding to marry/not marry Egwene) it branches. All possible branches and consequent branches are explored, in one Turning or another. That's how infinity works.

 

Is there a mathematician out there..

[Dream]

Let me jump in here with my interpretation of the situation starting with a point that everyone seems to agree on but I disagree with.

 

The Wheel is infinite so that means everything that can happen has happened and the Dark One has been simultaneously free and imprisoned in different realities.

 

First of all, the Wheel being infinite does not mean that everything that can happen has happened. The Wheel follows a specific Pattern that happens over and over again. It also has built-in corrective measures that ensure that in the grand scope of things, the same events happen over and over again. The Pattern is not random. Not every possibility is explored.

 

It's inherent in the nature of infinity that it does include everything that is possible.

 

The Pattern may not be random, but at each decision-point (such as Rand deciding to marry/not marry Egwene) it branches. All possible branches and consequent branches are explored, in one Turning or another. That's how infinity works.

 

Is there a mathematician out there..

Let's try putting it this way:

 

In VoG, Rand has the opportunity to destroy the Wheel and end it all. Now, either he destroys everything or he doesn't. But never in any of the infinite Turnings of the Wheel does Rand ever destroy the Wheel. Why? Because the Wheel doesn't want him to. Does this mean Rand will never ever destroy the Wheel? Not necessarily. The Dark One may somehow be able to interfere with this decision and bring about the Wheel's destruction. But it won't be because the Wheel decided to explore this possibility.

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

[Roxinos]

The Wheel is not omnipotent. The prophecies are not descriptions of what will happen, but rather an instruction set for what must happen. There is still free will in Randland. The Wheel is also not a divine entity; it is merely a harbinger of balance.

[Suttree]

Let me jump in here with my interpretation of the situation starting with a point that everyone seems to agree on but I disagree with.

 

The Wheel is infinite so that means everything that can happen has happened and the Dark One has been simultaneously free and imprisoned in different realities.

 

First of all, the Wheel being infinite does not mean that everything that can happen has happened. The Wheel follows a specific Pattern that happens over and over again. It also has built-in corrective measures that ensure that in the grand scope of things, the same events happen over and over again. The Pattern is not random. Not every possibility is explored.

 

It's inherent in the nature of infinity that it does include everything that is possible.

 

The Pattern may not be random, but at each decision-point (such as Rand deciding to marry/not marry Egwene) it branches. All possible branches and consequent branches are explored, in one Turning or another. That's how infinity works.

 

Is there a mathematician out there..

Let's try putting it this way:

 

In VoG, Rand has the opportunity to destroy the Wheel and end it all. Now, either he destroys everything or he doesn't. But never in any of the infinite Turnings of the Wheel does Rand ever destroy the Wheel. Why? Because the Wheel doesn't want him to. Does this mean Rand will never ever destroy the Wheel? Not necessarily. The Dark One may somehow be able to interfere with this decision and bring about the Wheel's destruction. But it won't be because the Wheel decided to explore this possibility.

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

 

Going back to the game of Sha'ra I don't think people fully realize how close the Shadow came to allowing Rand to control the "Fisher" but tricking him into doing their bidding in that scene.

[Dream]

The Wheel is not omnipotent. The prophecies are not descriptions of what will happen, but rather an instruction set for what must happen. There is still free will in Randland. The Wheel is also not a divine entity; it is merely a harbinger of balance.

Is there any difference between what will happen and what must happen when it always does happen?

 

Min's Viewings aways come true (unless the Pattern becomes sufficiently unraveled). No matter what Min tries to do, and she did try a long time ago, they will always come true. Neither Min nor her Viewee has any free will over the matter.

 

Also, the Wheel is most active on the three Ta'veren. And we see that our three Ta'veren have the least amount of free will.

[Roxinos]

Is there any difference between what will happen and what must happen when it always does happen?

 

I did not say "this must happen, always." I said, "In order for the Dragon to win, the Prophecies must come true; if they do not come true, the Dragon fails."

 

Min's viewings only apply to certain things, and not all of her viewings are certain. In the relatively few cases where she sees something that will happen, yes, there is no free will in those cases.

 

But the majority of her viewings are not of the definitive, prophetic nature. Rather, they're things like the falcon and hawk perched on Perrin's shoulder (which only really says that Perrin will meet Faile and Berelain, not that he will be with either one specifically).

 

Also, the Wheel is most active on the three Ta'veren. And we see that our three Ta'veren have the least amount of free will.

 

That's not how ta'veren works, though. It doesn't bend their lives to match its will. Rather, it bends the lives of those around them to aid them in the purpose they were designed for.

[Jon Paul]

It's inherent in the nature of infinity that it does include everything that is possible.

 

The Pattern may not be random, but at each decision-point (such as Rand deciding to marry/not marry Egwene) it branches. All possible branches and consequent branches are explored, in one Turning or another. That's how infinity works.

 

Is there a mathematician out there..

 

Yes, that is how I viewed it but remember Loial's words. A man could move from one farm to another, but he couldn't move to a throne (unless the Wheel wills it of course). What if there are possibilities that simply cannot happen in the Pattern? What if it is simply an infinite loop and not an infinite of possibilities?

 

Say someone built a machine to weave a piece of clothe with a specific pattern on it.. and left it with enough fuel to go one for.. well for ever. And it couldn't vary the pattern.. it just kept one weaving.. but sometimes some threads get a little loose become someone hits the machine with a baseball bat.. the machine keeps to the same pattern but because of the outside influence it gets a little buggered every now and then?

 

So maybe these mirror worlds only come into existence when there is a genuine possibility for chance in the weave that doesn't actually effect the Pattern, but that sometimes there just cannot be alternative realities in which it went different? So.. sort of.. like.. when Rand Sedai confronts the Dark One, and wins, there isn't an alternative reality in which he looses because that's just simply not a part of the Pattern, it cannot weave such a reality?

 

Min's viewings only apply to certain things, and not all of her viewings are certain. In the relatively few cases where she sees something that will happen, yes, there is no free will in those cases.

 

I disagree with you here, free will can be reconciled. Min simply sees what is going to happen. She sees what these people's choices will be. Exactly that.. she simply sees what their choices will be. She her self does not ordain their choices and remove their free will. She just has a bird's eye view of the Pattern and can see in front of her.

[Roxinos]

I never said that Min is a source of determination. But if she can see what their choices will be, and her visions are never wrong, then there is no free will. Simple as that.