The Dragon that turned to the Shadow.

[MasterAblar]

LTT was refered to as the Dragon before the breaking though, not after, so they couldn't have named him Dragon because he, indirectly, caused the breaking. The title just gained notoriety after that.

 

Not disagreeing necessarily, but I'd be interested to see a source for that.

 

When Rand is going through the Terangeal in Rhuidean, in the second to last vision he sees, the Aiel Coumin refers to LTT as the Dragon. This is the morning of LTT's attack, so before the breaking and certainly before LTT became the kinslayer.

[Hadilmir]

If Demandred had been named Dragon it still doesn't change the fact that the LTT/Rand soul is the CoL. Demandred could have gained the political title but he still wouldn't have been the lights champion that the pattern spins out.

 

RJ appears to suggest differently-

Netherlands tour April 2001' date=' Leiden - Aan'allein reporting[/url']"[/font]]

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern. But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ... the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

A different soul tied to the Wheel could become the Dragon, but it would always be male and the Dragon Reborn would have to be the same soul and male as well. LTT/Rand is simply an important soul to the Pattern, one of the many which has the opportunity to become the Dragon/Dragon Reborn combo.

[MasterAblar]

If Demandred had been named Dragon it still doesn't change the fact that the LTT/Rand soul is the CoL. Demandred could have gained the political title but he still wouldn't have been the lights champion that the pattern spins out.

 

RJ appears to suggest differently-

Netherlands tour April 2001' date=' Leiden - Aan'allein reporting[/url']"[/font]]

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern. But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ... the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

A different soul tied to the Wheel could become the Dragon, but it would always be male and the Dragon Reborn would have to be the same soul and male as well. LTT/Rand is simply an important soul to the Pattern, one of the many which has the opportunity to become the Dragon/Dragon Reborn combo.

 

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but RJ says here: It would be the same soul. It wouldn't be Rand or LTT but it would be the same soul.

[Suttree]

If Demandred had been named Dragon it still doesn't change the fact that the LTT/Rand soul is the CoL. Demandred could have gained the political title but he still wouldn't have been the lights champion that the pattern spins out.

 

RJ appears to suggest differently-

Netherlands tour April 2001' date=' Leiden - Aan'allein reporting[/url']"[/font]]

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern. But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ... the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

A different soul tied to the Wheel could become the Dragon, but it would always be male and the Dragon Reborn would have to be the same soul and male as well. LTT/Rand is simply an important soul to the Pattern, one of the many which has the opportunity to become the Dragon/Dragon Reborn combo.

 

Not getting what you mean? RJ says flat out it's the same soul. That soul is the Rand/LTT one and no other. The female dragon theory has been disproved many times.

[Rose]

That's how I understand it too. If somebody else instead of Rand had been the Dragon reborn, that other person would still have had LTT's soul. Rand as a person would not have existed.

[Hadilmir]

RJ is saying the Dragon is always going to be a male and the Dragon Reborn is always going to be the same soul as the Dragon. You're reading it as him saying the Dragon is always the same soul, but unless the writing is even more convoluted than it already appears, he is saying the Dragon Reborn is always the same soul as the Dragon and the Dragon is always male. He specifically says at the beginning with that "Yes" that a different soul could be the Dragon, does he not?

[damandred]

It appears that way, it also appears that there was some problem with the tape recorder.

Why would he say it doesn't have to be the same soul when all through the series its implied it is. It doesn't make sense, it would be over complicating things for no apparent reason.

[Suttree]

RJ is saying the Dragon is always going to be a male and the Dragon Reborn is always going to be the same soul as the Dragon. You're reading it as him saying the Dragon is always the same soul, but unless the writing is even more convoluted than it already appears, he is saying the Dragon Reborn is always the same soul as the Dragon and the Dragon is always male. He specifically says at the beginning with that "Yes" that a different soul could be the Dragon, does he not?

 

The question he says yes to is specifically related to the female dragon question which has since been disproven.

 

This question if Rand has always been the CoL has been going around in other threads lately. It is really clear from other quotes and the text that the "Dragon Soul" is always the CoL.

[Hadilmir]

The question he says yes to is specifically related to the female dragon question which has since been disproven.

 

This question if Rand has always been the CoL has been going around in other threads lately. It is really clear from other quotes and the text that the "Dragon Soul" is always the CoL.

I'm pretty sure the "Yes" is an answer to the first half of the question and the unheard part deals with the second half. He says "Yes" to the whole question. but feels the need to explain why it couldn't be a female soul. That means his "Yes" was answering only the first half because it isn't likely he would ignore half of a question and only answer the second half, which he would be if the "Yes" referred only to the second half of the question. OhhdearGodIjustconfusedmyself, but I do still think I'm correct.

 

What other quotes? As far as I know, RJ has never said LTT/Rand is always the Dragon/Dragon Reborn or the Wheel's Champion... Though if you can find one that is definite I will accept it. (I still disagree with the title "Champion of Light")

 

The text says very little on the subject. With infinite turnings, even if LTT/Rand was not the Dragon/Dragon Reborn every time he would still have been the combo an infinite number of times.

[Suttree]

The question he says yes to is specifically related to the female dragon question which has since been disproven.

 

This question if Rand has always been the CoL has been going around in other threads lately. It is really clear from other quotes and the text that the "Dragon Soul" is always the CoL.

I'm pretty sure the "Yes" is an answer to the first half of the question and the unheard part deals with the second half. He says "Yes" to the whole question. but feels the need to explain why it couldn't be a female soul. That means his "Yes" was answering only the first half because it isn't likely he would ignore half of a question and only answer the second half, which he would be if the "Yes" referred only to the second half of the question. OhhdearGodIjustconfusedmyself, but I do still think I'm correct.

 

What other quotes? As far as I know, RJ has never said LTT/Rand is always the Dragon/Dragon Reborn or the Wheel's Champion... Though if you can find one that is definite I will accept it. (I still disagree with the title "Champion of Light")

 

The text says very little on the subject. With infinite turnings, even if LTT/Rand was not the Dragon/Dragon Reborn every time he would still have been the combo an infinite number of times.

 

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

 

This question specifically was asked about the female dragon. It isn't a two part question.

 

Although you choose to interpret it diff apparently RJ says it's the same soul in the quote you provided.

 

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

 

As for text evidence go back and read post #22.

[Hadilmir]

This question specifically was asked about the female dragon. It isn't a two part question.

 

Although you choose to interpret it diff apparently RJ says it's the same soul in the quote you provided.

 

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

 

As for text evidence go back and read post #22.

 

He answers "Yes" it could be a different soul, but then clarifies the soul can't be female. So, yes, it's a two-part answer to a two-part question. I do not understand how to make that clearer, though I'll admit my wording last post was awkward. I also think you're misunderstanding my point on the next question/answer.

Netherlands tour April 2001' date=' Leiden - Aan'allein reporting[/url']"[/font]]

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern. But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ... the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

The bold part (And really the rest of the paragraph) shows his answer to that question is referring to the Dragon Reborn always being the same soul as the Dragon. He is clarifying that the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male because the Dragon is always a male and they're the same soul.

 

 

I answered that text evidence in the last part of my post-

The text says very little on the subject. With infinite turnings, even if LTT/Rand was not the Dragon/Dragon Reborn every time he would still have been the combo an infinite number of times.

[Suttree]

He answers "Yes" it could be a different soul, but then clarifies the soul can't be female. So, yes, it's a two-part answer to a two-part question. I do not understand how to make that clearer, though I'll admit my wording last post was awkward.

 

Dude, please explain how this is a two part question?

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

 

He doesn't ask about a different soul and a female soul. There is no distinction between the two. It is quite clearly asking if there could ever be a different soul that is female. This quote has been used to debate the female dragon issue for years and years and I have never seen anyone interpret it as you are.

 

As for saying he is only referring to Dragon/DR you need to do some serious mental gymnastics to reach that point. It isn't what he meant at all as others in the early part of this thread have noted.

[Hadilmir]

He answers "Yes" it could be a different soul, but then clarifies the soul can't be female. So, yes, it's a two-part answer to a two-part question. I do not understand how to make that clearer, though I'll admit my wording last post was awkward.

 

Dude, please explain how this is a two part question?

I already have,

I'm pretty sure the "Yes" is an answer to the first half of the question and the unheard part deals with the second half. He says "Yes" to the whole question. but feels the need to explain why it couldn't be a female soul. That means his "Yes" was answering only the first half because it isn't likely he would ignore half of a question and only answer the second half, which he would be if the "Yes" referred only to the second half of the question. OhhdearGodIjustconfusedmyself, but I do still think I'm correct.

 

But to reiterate in a (hopefully) more simplistic way-

In this case, because it is a complex question, RJ answers "Yes" as in "Yes, the Dragon could be a different soul" but then needs to clarify "No, that soul cannot be female because some things are preserved between turnings of the Wheel, the Dragon always male being one of them." He gives two answers, and therefore there were two questions, even if the question applies a causal chain to them that makes them appear one question. RJ's answer suggests he saw the question as having two parts, otherwise he would not have given two answers.

 

Dude, please understand this time, I literally cannot make this clearer.

 

Example might help-

In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

"Yes, but because of this, No."

[Suttree]

Example might help-

In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

"Yes, but because of this, No."

 

So you see this as a question on it's own?

 

In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon

 

Even though the second part as you agree clearly relates back the first?

 

On top of that you are basing your interpretation off a jarbled, paraphrased answer? Attempting to glean meaning from something that wasn't recorded and wasn't an exact quote from RJ would seem to be a very iffy science. I prefer to view it as it was obviously intended.

[Hadilmir]

So you see this as a question on it's own?

Yes, well... no. One question that has two separate, but equally correct answers.

 

Even though the second part as you agree clearly relates back the first?

 

On top of that you are basing your interpretation off a jarbled, paraphrased answer? Attempting to glean meaning from something that wasn't recorded and wasn't an exact quote from RJ would seem to be a very iffy science. I prefer to view it as it was obviously intended.

I agree it clearly relates back to the first. That is irrelevant to my point; RJ answered in two parts.

 

Do you believe it is Lanfear who drills the Bore every Turning? If you don't then you agree with me; there is a specific role which will be fulfilled every Turning, but maybe not always by the same soul. I would argue that Lanfear and perhaps most powerful people are souls the Wheel has set aside for something great, but makes no preference on what that deed may be. Does Arthur Hawking create an Empire every turning or does an important soul create an empire every Turning? Does Lews Therin seal the Bore every turning, or does an important soul do it? By the other logic, simply killing LTT before he seals the Bore would destroy all hope, because it is impossible for another to step in and do the deed.

[FarShainMael]

LTT was refered to as the Dragon before the breaking though, not after, so they couldn't have named him Dragon because he, indirectly, caused the breaking. The title just gained notoriety after that.

 

Not disagreeing necessarily, but I'd be interested to see a source for that.

 

When Rand is going through the Terangeal in Rhuidean, in the second to last vision he sees, the Aiel Coumin refers to LTT as the Dragon. This is the morning of LTT's attack, so before the breaking and certainly before LTT became the kinslayer.

 

OK, thanks. So originally it was a title of respect, but it seems that after the Breaking it became fearful, and the 'Dragon's Fang' became a curse.

[Rose]

Hadilmir, I agree with your grammatical interpretation of the sentence - you could consider the first part to be a separate question. But I don't agree with your interpretation of the answer. I think the Dragon is always the same soul at every turning.

[MasterAblar]

LTT was refered to as the Dragon before the breaking though, not after, so they couldn't have named him Dragon because he, indirectly, caused the breaking. The title just gained notoriety after that.

 

Not disagreeing necessarily, but I'd be interested to see a source for that.

 

When Rand is going through the Terangeal in Rhuidean, in the second to last vision he sees, the Aiel Coumin refers to LTT as the Dragon. This is the morning of LTT's attack, so before the breaking and certainly before LTT became the kinslayer.

 

OK, thanks. So originally it was a title of respect, but it seems that after the Breaking it became fearful, and the 'Dragon's Fang' became a curse.

 

Well yeah, all his great deeds during and before the War of Power were forgotten because of the Breaking, and only his last act, which happened to cause the Breaking was remembered. And so he went from most loved to most hated. Which isn't really fair considering he turned certain defeat into a tie, but unfortunately, and somewhat understandebly, people don't really care about that, or about the fact that he was completely insane when he slaughtered his loved ones.

[Suttree]

Do you believe it is Lanfear who drills the Bore every Turning? If you don't then you agree with me; there is a specific role which will be fulfilled every Turning, but maybe not always by the same soul. I would argue that Lanfear and perhaps most powerful people are souls the Wheel has set aside for something great, but makes no preference on what that deed may be. Does Arthur Hawking create an Empire every turning or does an important soul create an empire every Turning? Does Lews Therin seal the Bore every turning, or does an important soul do it? By the other logic, simply killing LTT before he seals the Bore would destroy all hope, because it is impossible for another to step in and do the deed.

 

Not sure how this follows at all. It has been acknowledged in many places, most recently in the "is LTT real" debates that his soul is a very unique case. At every turning certain events need to happen and it doesn't really matter which soul does them. But in the case of the CoL, there is only one soul that fulfills that function.

 

"That is better, Lews Therin." Ba'alzamon tossed the banner to the floor and put his hands on the chair back; wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers. The shadow no longer encompassed him. "There is your banner, Kinslayer. Much good will it do you. A thousand strings laid over a thousand years have drawn you here. Ten thousand woven throughout the Ages tie you like a sheep for slaughter. The Wheel itself holds you prisoner to your fate Age after Age. But I can set you free. You cowering cur, I alone in the entire world can teach you how to wield the Power. I alone can stop it killing you before you have a chance to go mad. I alone can stop the madness. You have served me before. Serve me again, Lews Therin, or be destroyed forever!"

[Hadilmir]

Noted Rose, thanks.

 

Not sure how this follows at all. It has been acknowledged in many places, most recently in the "is LTT real" debates that his soul is a very unique case. At every turning certain events need to happen and it doesn't really matter which soul does them. But in the case of the CoL, there is only one soul that fulfills that function.

 

"That is better, Lews Therin." Ba'alzamon tossed the banner to the floor and put his hands on the chair back; wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers. The shadow no longer encompassed him. "There is your banner, Kinslayer. Much good will it do you. A thousand strings laid over a thousand years have drawn you here. Ten thousand woven throughout the Ages tie you like a sheep for slaughter. The Wheel itself holds you prisoner to your fate Age after Age. But I can set you free. You cowering cur, I alone in the entire world can teach you how to wield the Power. I alone can stop it killing you before you have a chance to go mad. I alone can stop the madness. You have served me before. Serve me again, Lews Therin, or be destroyed forever!"

I don't see how that quote really backs your philosophy? It's a middling ground quote.

-The Dragon Banner belongs to the Dragon. I never contended this.

-Since the beginning of this Turning, events have shaped this moment. I never contended this.

-The Wheel holds LTT/Rand's soul to its fate Age after Age. Just as easily explained by the idea I put forth- As an important soul and one of the CoL (Fine, I'll use the term ) candidates, LTT/Rand has been the CoL an infinite amount of times, as have many other male souls, but that isn't to say he has been so every time. Besides, nothing is stating what his fate is Age after Age.

 

 

I don't quite understand why the idea of one single soul cursed to being a Savior/Destroyer every Turning should be so adamant to you. Sure, he and the other important souls have been the CoL an infinite number of times due to the nature of infinity, but why must one soul be placed above ALL others for time unending? It doesn't seem ...right? Hmm, I would even believe the list of 'important souls' has cycled through all the souls throughout infinity, but there is no proof for that while there is proof the Wheel apparently has souls it considers more important than others.

 

 

*Just a quick flashback irrelevant to this post. Does anyone actually agree with my assessment of Ishmael a few pages back or has my entire time in this thread been defending my viewpoint with no support?

[Suttree]

I don't quite understand why the idea of one single soul cursed to being a Savior/Destroyer every Turning should be so adamant to you. Sure, he and the other important souls have been the CoL an infinite number of times due to the nature of infinity, but why must one soul be placed above ALL others for time unending? It doesn't seem ...right? Hmm, I would even believe the list of 'important souls' has cycled through all the souls throughout infinity, but there is no proof for that while there is proof the Wheel apparently has souls it considers more important than others.

 

Ermm it's not just me. If you go back to the start of this thread it's the point Terez was making and it is a sentiment that is fairly prevailing on the boards.

 

As for proof nothing certain but Ishy claims it is specific, both in the text and in the BS tweet where he was asked if the CoL is always the Dragon Soul and he said "Ishy seems to think so"(paraphrased).

[Hadilmir]

I apologize for using "you", I merely meant your side of the argument, but you're the only one willing to debate with me.

 

I took your advice and went back to the first page and started from there, but I soon found a link to another thread I find much more specific.

 

While searching this thread, because I willing to change my opinion if I can find proof against it, I stumbled upon something a bit odd-

Yes I am saying that the CoL and the "Dragon Soul" aren't always one and the same.

Since, at one point in time, you apparently agreed with me, can you walk me through what changed your opinion? I suspect whatever it was that changed your mind may clarify your point to me in this thread, because it must've been pretty convincing for such a 180 degree shift.

 

*Note: I'm not trying to invalidate anything in this thread based on your posts in another thread, something seems wrong with the very idea of doing that. I just find it interesting that you could be convinced and I was hoping explaining exactly what swayed you to me would allow me to resolve this in my own mind as well as the argument.

[Suttree]

I apologize for using "you", I merely meant your side of the argument, but you're the only one willing to debate with me.

 

I took your advice and went back to the first page and started from there, but I soon found a link to another thread I find much more specific.

 

While searching this thread, because I willing to change my opinion if I can find proof against it, I stumbled upon something a bit odd-

Yes I am saying that the CoL and the "Dragon Soul" aren't always one and the same.

Since, at one point in time, you apparently agreed with me, can you walk me through what changed your opinion? I suspect whatever it was that changed your mind may clarify your point to me in this thread, because it must've been pretty convincing for such a 180 degree shift.

 

*Note: I'm not trying to invalidate anything in this thread based on your posts in another thread, something seems wrong with the very idea of doing that. I just find it interesting that you could be convinced and I was hoping explaining exactly what swayed you to me would allow me to resolve this in my own mind as well as the argument.

 

Oh no worries, as I have mentioned elsewhere on DM I used to be inclined towards the opposite view. Mainly I used to think that way because of the contradictions in quotes from RJ(you believe Ishy?/he was telling the truth when suits his purposes). My thought was it was the only way to explain having it both ways. Since then I have seem many valid arguments calling certain reports into question, specifically in this case, "thus spake the creator" and the one you are using to decide that it was a two part question.

 

In reading the text, discussing it via pm, and seeing author quotes, I and many other people who I respect on these boards are inclined to see it from the perspective I am arguing.

[Hadilmir]

Oh no worries, as I have mentioned elsewhere on DM I used to be inclined towards the opposite view. Mainly I used to think that way because of the contradictions in quotes from RJ(you believe Ishy?/he was telling the truth when suits his purposes). My thought was it was the only way to explain having it both ways. Since then I have seem many valid arguments calling certain reports into question, specifically in this case, "thus spake the creator" and the one you are using to decide that it was a two part question.

 

In reading the text, discussing it via pm, and seeing author quotes, I and many other people who I respect on these boards are inclined to see it from the perspective I am arguing.

Alright, so you're pinning it down to other debates, revelations, and explanations, but not some easy way to prove me wrong. Darn, I was really hoping for something definite here. I suppose I'll continue thinking this way until everything makes sense or I decide I'm wrong (Give it two weeks, maybe even less). (Not saying I don't respect you, but even those whom I very much so respect I often disagree with)

 

So, I think that is that. We were (effectively) the only ones discussing that point. I'm pretty sure I can't yet be convinced and since you're already convinced there's no point continuing.

[Suttree]

Oh no worries, as I have mentioned elsewhere on DM I used to be inclined towards the opposite view. Mainly I used to think that way because of the contradictions in quotes from RJ(you believe Ishy?/he was telling the truth when suits his purposes). My thought was it was the only way to explain having it both ways. Since then I have seem many valid arguments calling certain reports into question, specifically in this case, "thus spake the creator" and the one you are using to decide that it was a two part question.

 

In reading the text, discussing it via pm, and seeing author quotes, I and many other people who I respect on these boards are inclined to see it from the perspective I am arguing.

Alright, so you're pinning it down to other debates, revelations, and explanations, but not some easy way to prove me wrong. Darn, I was really hoping for something definite here. I suppose I'll continue thinking this way until everything makes sense or I decide I'm wrong (Give it two weeks, maybe even less). (Not saying I don't respect you, but even those whom I very much so respect I often disagree with)

 

So, I think that is that. We were (effectively) the only ones discussing that point. I'm pretty sure I can't yet be convinced and since you're already convinced there's no point continuing.

 

 

Yeah sorry I can't be more helpful but it really has been a cumulative thing. Now that I do think this way though the evidence Terez has provided in thread is pretty much enough for me. Mainly though over the last year I have had many discussions, noticed things in rereads/quotes, and saw the response BS gave to Uncle Butcher asking him if Rand was always the CoL and all put together it was enough to sway me. When you take BS saying "Ishy seemed to think so", combine that with RJ saying he wasn't lying and add the "same soul" quote above its a wrap for me.

 

To address your point a few paths back about why not just kill LTT or the Dragon it goes back to the Sha'ra metaphor. You can win the game by directing the fisher, destroying all, or tricking your opponent into making the moves you want. There are different paths to victory but you don't just instantly win if you kill the Dragon. You can kill him and still lose. Remember RJ has said the DO has had "lesser victories" he has just never won in totality. "I win again Lews Therin" is pretty suggestive to me.