Black Tower 13x13ing

[Clouded]

I am curious about how exactly someone is converted to the shadow. There seems to be conflicting reports on how to do this.

 

In The Dragon Reborn, Ch 22 The Price of the Ring

Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is – a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things." Egwene shuddered. "Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know – Light send it has not been done! – since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords – Darkfriends who could channel – weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."

Compulsion can be fought, it seems that this can't. If you use a form of Compulsion sufficiently strong to overcome all resistance, then the subject that remains is useless for anything but the simplest of tasks.

 

and a conflicting (or more informed) statement from a Robert Jordan Interview:

 

Punisher: Have you ever thought about reinstituting some of the old ideas from earlier books? For example, in The Dragon Reborn you had a situation with thirteen dark sisters and thirteen Myrddraal to forcibly convert someone to the darker side of things. It seems you have abandoned that. Do you think you might have something like that pop up again at some unexpected moment? It doesn't seem realistic for the Black Ajah to abandon the idea.

RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

 

The reason I ask is because it changes my interpretation of event at the black tower. If no linking is required, than Taim could start turning men when he found 12 other male channelers who were darkfriends.

 

But if a circle is required, then at least 1 women would need to be involved, which means he had a few options. He had to wait until some dark sisters were bonded, he had to sneak in a BA sister, or he had the assistance of one of the female forsaken.

 

I'm just wondering, because when I initially pictured this, I assumed it was 13 darkfriend Asha'man.

[omaleyb]

Good question. Does it really have to be a circle? If so, only one person directing the flows, but splitting it thirteen ways (into the thirteen Myrddral). This would be extremely difficult as not many people can split their flows like that. My question is can you reverse the process?

[Goldstar]

Yes, but you have to chennel your weaves through thirteen Dragon Reborns.

[Guest asdrabael]

I can't remember which book it was now off the top of my head, but wasn't there a sequence in one of the books where Egwene has a scene where she see's an alternate future where they use a circle of 13 AS with 13 myrdd and are forcibly converting people to the shadow while Rand is in the courtyard about to be stilled?

[Sharaman]

It's not known for certain that saidin channelers cannot link directly to fades. It may be possible since we don't know the fade-linking mechanism.

It may be a variant of the TP.

For that matter we don't know if TP users (Moridin-Graendal for example), can link directly to either saidar/saidin users.

 

Also if women are required, there are dozens of Black Ajah who escaped Egwene's purge.

They could easily be hiding somewhere in the BT - it's a huge tract of land.

[Leyrann]

Well, there were at least no BA's bonded, because Alviarin was so sure it would go wrong, that she didn't sent Black Sisters there. And to link, you need more women than men, so at least 7 women would be required. And, Asdrabael, that was at Egwene's testing for Accepted.

[Sharaman]

About 60-odd BA escaped. Why would they need to be bonded in order to do the GLoD's bidding? If He (aka Shaidar) or one of the Chosen tell them to link with Fades and Saidin-channelers and do a 13x13, they'll do it.

[Clouded]

Well, there were at least no BA's bonded, because Alviarin was so sure it would go wrong, that she didn't sent Black Sisters there. And to link, you need more women than men, so at least 7 women would be required. And, Asdrabael, that was at Egwene's testing for Accepted.

 

I thought about that too, but then found that RJ said the more women than men rule was incorrect.

 

He also said that the "one more woman than men rule" in the Lord of Chaos glossary was invalid

[Luckers]

Yes, but you have to chennel your weaves through thirteen Dragon Reborns.

 

I giggled.

[mb]

I imagine Demandred was involved in some way with the forced conversions.

Perhaps he participated in the first one.

Depending on aliance, maybe Taim also.

 

I imagine it was 13 separate weaves.

 

 

As for reversing, none of the books tell how. Though channeling seems required.

[Durinax]

actually there are about 100 BA with whereabouts totally unknown, (I assume this since the BA has even amounts among the two sides in conflict, why wouldnt they have more among the missing bunch (probly their strongest since that would be the lowest risk area