Eliada and the Royal house of Andor

[Dewairah]

hmmn the foretelling is probably not related to him anyway - he's a damodred not a trakand and isnt reeeaaally part of the royal house of andor.

 

He's got more going for him than gawyn and elayne though as far as "The Last Battle" goes..

 

he's a better swordsman than elayne and gawyn

he has more personal followers than elayne or gawyn - who can all fight. I doubt the kin will actually fight anyone but thats open to speculation i guess. (If we count the army of andor/cairhein then perhaps he doesnt.)

elayne cant channel to save herself anymore

gawyn is rather rash/unreliable/tied up with egwene/consumed by hatred of rand/etc

[FarShainMael]

Galad is interesting for being a 'perfect' man. Elsewhere I've noted that he personifies the four 'cardinal virtues': he's prudent, always doing the right thing; he's just, in how he handles Perrin, agreeing to a proper trial and all that goes with it, recognises at last that Perrin is not a DF and accepts it; he has fortitude in how he handles being beaten up by the Questioners (ToM2); and he is temperate, eating the same sort of rations as his men, not fancy food (ToM7).

 

This may be important for the parallels with Sir Percival (=Galad) and the Fisher King (=Rand). Percival heals the FK of his wound.. what will Galad do?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

[Suttree]

And about Gitara's Foretelling. I understand why she sent Tigraine to the Waste, but why in the Seven Hells did she sent Luc to the Blight? There, he killed Rand's father and became the DO's no1 hitman.

And since Eliada remembered her Foretelling, why didn't Gitara remembered hers? She knew Tigraine will give birth to the DR, she knew about the Waste, but she died of shock when he was born.

And why didn't they considered for a second that the DR could be born by a woman following the Aiel, especially since Gitara sent her there? Did she just forget to mention that little tidbit of information? Did all the AS really believed all the Aiel were DF?!? Or their women couldn't have babies?!?

 

I've wondered about this myself. In fact, elsewhere (can't find it now) I've suggested that Gitara was herself BA, and sent Luc and Tigraine away to prevent anything like the DR's birth - then dies of shock when she finds she's actually caused it!

 

This is quite a nice theory. If she had a foretelling similar to that of Elaida, about the royal line of Andor being a major factor in defeating the DO/saving the world, she could have done everything in her power to destabilize it.

Luc sent to die in the Blight, Tigraine to die in the Waste(she was extremely lucky to be found by Maidens, and saved by them...they had no love for wetlanders, and one becoming a Maiden..).

And lastly, the queen herself.

Mordrellen was taken ill shortly after Tigraine's disappearance. Heartbroken with grief, she quickly died. With no surviving heirs, the Third War of Andoran Succession took place and the Lion Throne passed to Morgase Trakand.

Poor royal line of Andor. I understand why the Amyrlin chose a position that kept her in the WT at all times...she really sucked at being a royal adviser.

 

The problem with this theory is we know what the foretelling was. If Tigraine didn't go to the blight the world and Andor would suffer. In looking at her character Moiraine thought her to be fair and always just. There is not one hint or shred of evidence in the text to support Gitara being BA or misleading people about her foretelling. For an event this important RJ would have dropped us something.

 

Also not sure why you mean mentioning the Amyrlin as Gitara never held that position?

[Xcorpyo001]

And about Gitara's Foretelling. I understand why she sent Tigraine to the Waste, but why in the Seven Hells did she sent Luc to the Blight? There, he killed Rand's father and became the DO's no1 hitman.

And since Eliada remembered her Foretelling, why didn't Gitara remembered hers? She knew Tigraine will give birth to the DR, she knew about the Waste, but she died of shock when he was born.

And why didn't they considered for a second that the DR could be born by a woman following the Aiel, especially since Gitara sent her there? Did she just forget to mention that little tidbit of information? Did all the AS really believed all the Aiel were DF?!? Or their women couldn't have babies?!?

 

I've wondered about this myself. In fact, elsewhere (can't find it now) I've suggested that Gitara was herself BA, and sent Luc and Tigraine away to prevent anything like the DR's birth - then dies of shock when she finds she's actually caused it!

 

This is quite a nice theory. If she had a foretelling similar to that of Elaida, about the royal line of Andor being a major factor in defeating the DO/saving the world, she could have done everything in her power to destabilize it.

Luc sent to die in the Blight, Tigraine to die in the Waste(she was extremely lucky to be found by Maidens, and saved by them...they had no love for wetlanders, and one becoming a Maiden..).

And lastly, the queen herself.

Mordrellen was taken ill shortly after Tigraine's disappearance. Heartbroken with grief, she quickly died. With no surviving heirs, the Third War of Andoran Succession took place and the Lion Throne passed to Morgase Trakand.

Poor royal line of Andor. I understand why the Amyrlin chose a position that kept her in the WT at all times...she really sucked at being a royal adviser.

 

The problem with this theory is we know what the foretelling was. If Tigraine didn't go to the blight the world and Andor would suffer. In looking at her character Moiraine thought her to be fair and always just. There is not one hint or shred of evidence in the text to support Gitara being BA or misleading people about her foretelling. For an event this important RJ would have dropped us something.

 

Also not sure why you mean mentioning the Amyrlin as Gitara never held that position?

 

 

We know what Tigraine told the Maidens. Keeping some of it back would have been safer in those circumstances. After all, she didn't knew who she could trust, and with what.

Is there a quote with the exact Foretelling, word by word?

 

About her position in the WT, I was talking about her being Keeper to one Amyrlin, Tamra Ospenya.

[FarShainMael]

Actually, we don't know what the foretelling was exactly; we hear of it second-hand. (Necessarily, because Gitara died as the story began.) 'Chinese whispers' would be at work. Try this, as an example of a report passing down a lengthy chain:

 

'Ellid Abareim claims she heard Adelorna tell Shemaen that Gitara had a Foretelling that Tarmon Gai'don will come during the lifetimes of sisters now breathing.' (NS8).

[Suttree]

And about Gitara's Foretelling. I understand why she sent Tigraine to the Waste, but why in the Seven Hells did she sent Luc to the Blight? There, he killed Rand's father and became the DO's no1 hitman.

And since Eliada remembered her Foretelling, why didn't Gitara remembered hers? She knew Tigraine will give birth to the DR, she knew about the Waste, but she died of shock when he was born.

And why didn't they considered for a second that the DR could be born by a woman following the Aiel, especially since Gitara sent her there? Did she just forget to mention that little tidbit of information? Did all the AS really believed all the Aiel were DF?!? Or their women couldn't have babies?!?

 

I've wondered about this myself. In fact, elsewhere (can't find it now) I've suggested that Gitara was herself BA, and sent Luc and Tigraine away to prevent anything like the DR's birth - then dies of shock when she finds she's actually caused it!

 

This is quite a nice theory. If she had a foretelling similar to that of Elaida, about the royal line of Andor being a major factor in defeating the DO/saving the world, she could have done everything in her power to destabilize it.

Luc sent to die in the Blight, Tigraine to die in the Waste(she was extremely lucky to be found by Maidens, and saved by them...they had no love for wetlanders, and one becoming a Maiden..).

And lastly, the queen herself.

Mordrellen was taken ill shortly after Tigraine's disappearance. Heartbroken with grief, she quickly died. With no surviving heirs, the Third War of Andoran Succession took place and the Lion Throne passed to Morgase Trakand.

Poor royal line of Andor. I understand why the Amyrlin chose a position that kept her in the WT at all times...she really sucked at being a royal adviser.

 

The problem with this theory is we know what the foretelling was. If Tigraine didn't go to the blight the world and Andor would suffer. In looking at her character Moiraine thought her to be fair and always just. There is not one hint or shred of evidence in the text to support Gitara being BA or misleading people about her foretelling. For an event this important RJ would have dropped us something.

 

Also not sure why you mean mentioning the Amyrlin as Gitara never held that position?

 

 

We know what Tigraine told the Maidens. Keeping some of it back would have been safer in those circumstances. After all, she didn't knew who she could trust, and with what.

Is there a quote with the exact Foretelling, word by word?

 

About her position in the WT, I was talking about her being Keeper to one Amyrlin, Tamra Ospenya.

 

Ahh sorry, was skimming at work and it didn't compute...

 

In terms of the foretelling couldn't find quotes except for the birth of the DR. Here is what ewot says...

About 971 NE, while counselor to Queen Mordrellen of Andor, Gitara convinces Lord Luc that the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don depends upon him going to the Blight. (LoC,Ch16)

In 972 NE Gitara tells Tigraine that disaster will befall the world unless she goes to the Three-fold Land, becomes a Maiden of the Spear, and does not return until the Maidens go to Tar Valon. (TSR,Ch34, LoC,Ch16)

 

Again we have zero hints from RJ in the text that Gitara's foretellings are anything besides what they appear. That combined with Moiraine commenting favorably on her character should be enough.

[FarShainMael]

So, to repeat Aiel Blademaster's words, why did she die of shock at something she was expecting to happen? I'd say that in itself was a bit of a hint!

[Xcorpyo001]

About 971 NE, while counselor to Queen Mordrellen of Andor, Gitara convinces Lord Luc that the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don depends upon him going to the Blight. (LoC,Ch16)

In 972 NE Gitara tells Tigraine that disaster will befall the world unless she goes to the Three-fold Land, becomes a Maiden of the Spear, and does not return until the Maidens go to Tar Valon. (TSR,Ch34, LoC,Ch16)

 

Again we have zero hints from RJ in the text that Gitara's foretellings are anything besides what they appear. That combined with Moiraine commenting favorably on her character should be enough.

 

I have one as well.

Elayne nodded. “I think so. I do not know much of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but I have heard a few lines. One I remember is, ‘On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.’ Egwene, Rand does look like an Aiel. Well, he looks like the pictures I have seen of Tigraine, too, but she vanished before he was born, and I hardly think she could have been his mother anyway. I think Rand’s mother was a Maiden of the Spear.”

EDIT: TDR, Chapter 39.(After they meet Aviendha for the first time)

 

Firstly, just lol.

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.

 

If Elayne knew this stuff, don't you think an AS with a couple centuries worth of experience might have read/heard about the prophecies, maybe even add some in the mix?

 

Now, she tells Tigraine to go to the Waste, stay and train there, and return when the Maidens will go to Tar Valon(which is in the shadow Dragonmount)

So, future of the world, Maidens(wedded to no man), Tar Valon(near Dragonmount)...if Elayne made the connection about the Maidens, I think Gitana did as well.

Why did she kept the secret?

 

Maybe that part of the Prophecy is hers, made when she sent Tigraine in the Waste.

 

 

About Gitara acting like such a nice person, not all of the BA sisters are evil incarnated. The best aren't so obvious(except the reds, but for them it's something natural).

For example, Siuan, Moiraine and Egwene trusted Sheriam a lot, and had a good impression about her, and they were wrong, weren't they?

And Verin bringing cookies to Siuan and Moiraine when they were Accepted. Well, she was actually pretty cool, even for a BA.

[David Selig]

It's really unlikely that Gitara was black. As we see in New Spring, the Black Ajah had no clue about the age of the Dragon Reborn and were killing adult men who were lucky and thus suspected channellers.

 

On the other hand, it's likely that she might've known Tigraine would be the mother of the Dragon Reborn. Apart from what Aiel Blademaster posted, Siuan mentioned at one point that Gitara told her that she knew that the Aiel called themselves The People of the Dragon, which would've given her an additional clue.

[Suttree]

It's really unlikely that Gitara was black. As we see in New Spring, the Black Ajah had no clue about the age of the Dragon Reborn and were killing adult men who were lucky and thus suspected channellers.

 

On the other hand, it's likely that she might've known Tigraine would be the mother of the Dragon Reborn. Apart from what Aiel Blademaster posted, Siuan mentioned at one point that Gitara told her that she knew that the Aiel called themselves The People of the Dragon, which would've given her an additional clue.

 

Indeed, solid point David. If she was black they would have been tipped off.

 

While she may have reasoned some hints out, it's a bit much to pinpoint the time of his birth. Keeping the secret was the plan from the start, they didn't know who was black and Tamra did the same after Gitara died. Not sure how anything you have provided shows evidence of being BA in the slightest.

 

As for her dying upon his birth I don't really see any issue there. Knowing the prophecies are all good and well, but out of nowhere being blasted that the DR has been reborn and the march to TG has started is enough to shock anyone.

 

And Verin bringing cookies to Siuan and Moiraine when they were Accepted. Well, she was actually pretty cool, even for a BA.

 

Can we even consider her BA since she was working for the light the entire time.

[Mulk]

re: Gitara dying - from what we've seen of Foretelling, it is a shock to the system regardless of what is being foretold. I've taken her death at that to be the much greater import of the Dragon's birth causing a correspondingly greater shock to her system, likely causing a heart attack. What Suttree said, in other words. :)

[Xcorpyo001]

It's really unlikely that Gitara was black. As we see in New Spring, the Black Ajah had no clue about the age of the Dragon Reborn and were killing adult men who were lucky and thus suspected channellers.

 

On the other hand, it's likely that she might've known Tigraine would be the mother of the Dragon Reborn. Apart from what Aiel Blademaster posted, Siuan mentioned at one point that Gitara told her that she knew that the Aiel called themselves The People of the Dragon, which would've given her an additional clue.

 

Indeed, solid point David. If she was black they would have been tipped off.

 

While she may have reasoned some hints out, it's a bit much to pinpoint the time of his birth. Keeping the secret was the plan from the start, they didn't know who was black and Tamra did the same after Gitara died. Not sure how anything you have provided shows evidence of being BA in the slightest.

 

As for her dying upon his birth I don't really see any issue there. Knowing the prophecies are all good and well, but out of nowhere being blasted that the DR has been reborn and the march to TG has started is enough to shock anyone.

 

And Verin bringing cookies to Siuan and Moiraine when they were Accepted. Well, she was actually pretty cool, even for a BA.

 

Can we even consider her BA since she was working for the light the entire time.

 

 

I don't think Verin managed to stay in the BA for decades without doing some bad things. They had missions from their superiors, right? She couldn't just say no.

And her weak compulsion would make her perfect for 'interrogatories', which usually ended up when the person with the info died.

 

I'm not saying Gitara's 100% percent black, but she knew a lot more than she let on. It's very unlikely she didn't puzzled out the birth of the DR by a Maiden she helped create, and which had the faith of the world in her hand.

But she kept it a secret, probably for the same reason Elaida used.

She was trying to be the one in control of the DR, and hitch a ride to glory, without involving the WT. Being the adviser to the DR will guarantee a lot of power and recognition for centuries to come(if the DR will not blow everything up, of course)

[Lisa Campbell]

I don't think Gitara was black.

 

In Newspring Siuan and Moiraine work out that Gitara had had other foretellings, we just don't know what they were except that the third day of the battle near Tar Valon was important.

 

That she sent Tigraine and Luc away obviously relates to foretellings years prior to the Aiel War, maybe we'll find out more in AMofL.

[Suttree]

She was trying to be the one in control of the DR, and hitch a ride to glory, without involving the WT. Being the adviser to the DR will guarantee a lot of power and recognition for centuries to come(if the DR will not blow everything up, of course)

 

I kind of doubt those were her intentions based on her relationship with Tamra. More likely I think out of necessity with the BA lurking they had a Moriane/Siuan style plot going. In fact we see the ends of this carried out in NS with Tamra not knowing who she can trust...