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tinkers lost song


jpoppin23
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What could be the possible effect of it being sung? I'm new, and haven't tried to see if the thread exists, not to mention lazy, but could it possibly have something specifically to do with the taint?

What news or hints in the book point to it being found?

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None. The Song does not and never did exist. Read this.

I agree that "the Song" doesn't exist. But when the Tinkers split of from the Aiel they were looking for the songs, without a capital. That has changed in thousands of years in "the Song". When Rand passed trough the Chrystal Columns, he only saw the Seed Singing on screen. But other ways of singing were mentioned as well.

People gathering at night to hear the Aiel sing. They also defended a city by singing. And I believe that it was stated in the BWB that the Aiel singing enhanced channeling. If that is so, Rand will need the singing to defeat the DO.

 

I think the Tinkers will find the songs and the Aiel will join them.

“That one will come later. The stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back, and he will destroy you.”(Prophecy of Rhuidean)

Will he take them back to the Way of Leaf?

 

It is said that only a remnant of a remnant will survive

I can see this happen if the Aiel have returned the Way of Leaf.

 

I also think, that if the Aiel don't return to the Way of Leaf, they will fail the AS again and that the visions Aviendha had in Rhuidean will come true.

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Read the link I provided. It addresses the Singing, which is what you are speaking of.

I read it. But you didn't mention the defence of Tzora by the Aiel. That had nothing to do with Seed Singing. Perhaps, they were singing one of the songs the Tinkers are looking for, but you cannot learn it in Rhuidean, because it happened off screen.

 

I don't see, why you make such a difference between songs and Singing. For Seed Singing you need a song. To defend Tzora they probably used another song, but the Aiel were singing there too. Anyhow, for singing you need a song.

 

Furthermore, I don't have a problem that "the songs" have changed into "the Song" in three millennia.

Edited by Wantanswers
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Also, wasn't it said the tinkers sang a song when LTT was going mad before the breaking and he killed all 100 who sang it because the taint. Wouldn't that suggest something aside from enhancing the power? I cannot remember the exact description of the story but I know it was along those lines.

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I read it. But you didn't mention the defence of Tzora by the Aiel. That had nothing to do with Seed Singing. Perhaps, they were singing one of the songs the Tinkers are looking for, but you cannot learn it in Rhuidean, because it happened off screen.

 

With all due respect, read it again. It makes quite clear the distinction between the Singing and the Song, and will explain to you why it is that the Aiel at Tzora were not 'singing one of the songs the Tinkers are looking for'--specifically because the Tinkers aren't looking for a 'song'.

 

Beyond the obvious, other mistakes here are...

 

1. There was no 'defence of Tzora'. The Aiel sung to distract Jaric and to give the civilians time to flee Tzora. He killed them all, destroyed Tzora, and went on to destroy Paaren Disen.

 

2. You cannot learn any 'songs' from Rhuidean. The Singing is a function of the Talent of the Voice, a vocal encapsulation of the One Power. This too I covered in that thread you've stated that you read.

 

I don't see, why you make such a difference between songs and Singing. For Seed Singing you need a song. To defend Tzora they probably used another song, but the Aiel were singing there too. Anyhow, for singing you need a song.

 

I make a difference between the Song and the Singing. The Song is not a song. If you'd read the thread I listed you'd understand this.

 

Furthermore, I don't have a problem that "the songs" have changed into "the Song" in three millennia.

 

I don't have a problem with it either. It still doesn't make the Song one of the actual songs Voiced in the Singing.

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1. There was no 'defence of Tzora'. The Aiel sung to distract Jaric and to give the civilians time to flee Tzora. He killed them all, destroyed Tzora, and went on to destroy Paaren Disen.

 

The Aiel sang to remember who once had been. That shows the intention to save the city and I call that defence.

 

2. You cannot learn any 'songs' from Rhuidean. The Singing is a function of the Talent of the Voice, a vocal encapsulation of the One Power. This too I covered in that thread you've stated that you read.

 

Can you give me any quotation about that. Coumin couldn't channel, but he had the Voice. Ogier cannot channel, but they took part of the Seed Singing. And I bet they use the Voice for Tree Singing.

Can you be sure the Voice doesn't exist anymore? Can you be sure it isn't known under a different name at the moment?

High Chant for example.

 

I make a difference between the Song and the Singing. The Song is not a song. If you'd read the thread I listed you'd understand this.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree. I know that the Song is not a song. The Tinkers are looking for songs and they call it "the Song".

 

I don't have a problem with it either. It still doesn't make the Song one of the actual songs Voiced in the Singing.

Can you give me a list of the songs that are? :biggrin:

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From what I've been led to believe (and from Dagonmount mind you), the BWB is not to be taken as gospel. (Shock horror, blasphemy!) It was written partway through the series and not by RJ. To tell the truth I never bought it because it was not published under his name and I was peeved that it was released instead of the next book that I was eagerly awaiting at the time.

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I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree. I know that the Song is not a song. The Tinkers are looking for songs and they call it "the Song".

 

No, the Tinkers are looking for an ideal. There is no song that exists now or ever has existed which will fulfil that ideal.

 

Coumin couldn't channel, but he had the Voice. Ogier cannot channel, but they took part of the Seed Singing. And I bet they use the Voice for Tree Singing.

 

The Singing uses the One Power, but its Singers cannot channel, so I don't know what you're on about.

 

Can you be sure the Voice doesn't exist anymore? Can you be sure it isn't known under a different name at the moment?

 

Its not known under a different name, but there may well be those who have the Talent--if so we have not encountered them. Furthermore what relevance has any of this?

 

Can you give me a list of the songs that are?

 

Tell you what. Study my original thread. Study it in depth. If you can come up with the answer to this question, I will give you a full and detailed list of every song there is. I will give you their names, their uses. I will even tell you how to sing them.

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Loial can sing himself a staff, but that doesn't count I guess.

 

 

(i think it may be opinion stated as fact. not that there's anything wrong with that...)

 

Nope, nothing wrong with that. :rolleyes:

 

I was reading along the other day, and came to the part where Avi discovers she has a talent for discovering what misc *angreal do. She comes across one that that requires a song to make it function. At first I thought "Maybe that's what the Tinkers are actually looking for!?" And then I thought "Oh that's right, there is no song, this RJ is a moron. He should consult with Luckers on this stuff..."

 

Ah well.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Luckers

Couldn’t answer you before, because I have been away for some time.

 

Tell you what. Study my original thread. Study it in depth. If you can come up with the answer to this question, I will give you a full and detailed list of every song there is. I will give you their names, their uses. I will even tell you how to sing them.

More depth can be found in this line as in your whole “theory”.

All I noticed that your ideas were based on one small part of one chapter in one book. You forgot to consider all the information that was given in The Eye of the World, and you also didn’t mention a prophecy you can find in the Dragon Reborn.

 

You reproached me to read too much in the books. Of course, I don’t agree with you. As a matter of fact I think you didn’t read enough and considered even less. Yes, I have read much more as you did, considered much more and probably eliminated much more. If you had done as much as I did, you should have discovered where the songs probably are. And you surely hadn’t come to the conclusion that the songs don’t exist.

 

The Voice has nothing to do with the One Power. It is the way a voice is used.

”What sort of place is this?” the gleeman demanded in a deep voice that sounded larger than that of an ordinary man. Even in the open air it seemed to fill a great room and resonate from the walls. (tEotW, The Gleeman)

Some lines later

”So, I thought I recognized Padan Fain in there.” His voice was still deep, but the resonance had gone, replaced by scorn.”

Here you see that Thom Merrilin used his voice in two different ways. He probably has the Voice and here is shown how it sounded when he uses it.

 

The Tuatha’an and the Aiel probably have the Voice as well:

|

I met some Tuatha’an a few years back, and they wanted to learn the songs we sing to the trees. Actually, the trees won’t listen to very many anymore, and so not many Ogier learn the songs. I have a scrap of that Talent, so Elder Arent insisted I learn. I taught the Tuatha’an what they could learn, but the trees never listen to human. For the Travelling People they were only songs, and just as well received for that, since none was the song they seek.(tEotW, Remembrance of Dreams)
Sometimes I worry that they might know the song, tough I suppose it isn’t likely. Among the Aiel, men do not sing, you know. Isn’t that strange? From the time an Aiel boy becomes a man he will not sing anything but battle chants, or their dirge for the slain. I have heard them singing over their dead, and over those they killed. That song is one to make stones weep. (tEotW, The Traveling People)

 

We can also assume Rand has the Voice, certainly after his epiphany.

 

You stated that that the song used around Tzora wasn’t an Aiel song. In some way you were right:

Ten thousands Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song.

After reconsidering the text I realized that they probably didn’t sing one song. But what else, but their own songs ,would they sing to remind Jaric who they were.

 

Seed Songs aren’t Aiel songs. They were sung by Aiel and Ogier at least and others can join if they have the Voice.

 

I do realize that this is my interpretation and that I still might be wrong, but before you are going to oppose you should read and consider the following text:

“Tear?” The Aiel sounded surprised. “Why . . .? But it must be. Prophecy says when the Stone of Tear falls, we will leave the Three-fold Land at last.” That was the Aiel name for the Waste. “It says we will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost.”

(TDR, A Different Dance)

Now, what did the Aiel lose. It surely isn’t the Way of Leaf, for that isn’t lost, it is abandoned. Besides, they could have returned to the Way of Leaf, after Rand revealed the truth or they could have joined the Tinkers(as some did).

The Voice isn’t reserved for the Aiel only, so it isn’t theirs.

So, that leaves only the songs to be found.

 

Furthermore you didn’t make any attempt to find the songs.

“We mean to find that safe place. And the songs, too. We will!”

Well, the Tinkers have found their safe place in Ebou Dar, but I don’t think they’ll find the songs there anymore.

 

She (Aviendha)thought a small hinged box, apparently ivory and covered with rippling red and green stripes, held music, hundreds of tunes, perhaps thousands. With a ter’angreal, that might be possible. (KoD, A Different Skill)

Does this ter’angreal contain the songs and will Aviendha activate it?

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Now, now, what a high degree of pessimism. There is a Song. There has to be.

We know that in these days, new talents show up, many without a connection to the OP. We have sniffers, fortune tellers, and a connection to nature, as wolfbrothers.

 

There is a mention about the Voice even in the Prologue of the first book.

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. “Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?”

 

Now, a gift, probably not connected to the OP, and very extended in all societies, since there is special day for it and all are invited to join in the Singing.

 

We also know the first Aiel were followers of the Way of the Leaf, and they were using singing to help plants in their growth.

Now, some of those Aiel left the caravan, seeking a safe place and someone to tell them the song they lost.

 

In ToM(and even before) we see that they are already found a place where they are safe, in the Seachan provinces, so half their journey is complete.

 

Now, if Rand will want to kneel to Tuon(Fortuona...I hate this name), he will go to Ebou Dar, where there are a lot of thinkers.

I don't know if Rand has the Voice, but he has the memories of LTT, and since we know what type of women he liked, if she was singing somewhere, I'll bet my entire house and those of my neighbors that LTT was right beside her/them, Voice or no Voice.

“I cannot imagine what is keeping Ilyena. She will give me the rough side of her tongue if she thinks I have been hiding a guest from her. I hope you enjoy conversation, for she surely does. Be forewarned. Ilyena will ask you so many questions you may end up telling her everything you know.”
Proof that he's under her heel.

So he probably knows the verses/tune(he can play the flute very well)...maybe this is the reason why. So he can tell them the Song.

 

 

Now, about what does the Song does? I think it something related to nature, and keeping the DO's influence out of the world.

Since the old blood still sings, there will be a lot of Thinkers(but not only them) that will be able to use it.

 

The Aiel will use their gained battle prowess to battle all the Shadowspawn the DO can throw at them.

The Thinkers, followers of the Way of the Leaf, will battle the Blight itself. In the first book there is a very detailed description of the Blight and it's effect on trees, grass, etc. I think the Song, sung by someone with the Voice, will be able to actually heal the land and trees, after TG of course.

So both off-shots of the former Aiel will be able to fight the DO, each in it's own way.

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@ Aiel Blademaster

It is not that easy. The Aiel will have to meet their toh, and they can only meet their toh after returning to the Way of Leaf.

 

 

 

I don't think they'll do that before fighting the DO. And if they know they'll have to do it again, in the future, maybe they'll chose to keep their spears.

And another thing they could to to not have this toh is by discarding the Ji'eh'Toh system. After all, I don't think they were earning Ji in the AoL by growing a taller plant than their neighbor.

 

But I was talking about the Thinkers and their song, and they are already in 'peace, dude' mode, so they'll have no problem with singing the 'Song'.

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@ Aiel Blademaster

It is not that easy. The Aiel will have to meet their toh, and they can only meet their toh after returning to the Way of Leaf.

 

 

 

I don't think they'll do that before fighting the DO. And if they know they'll have to do it again, in the future, maybe they'll chose to keep their spears.

And another thing they could to to not have this toh is by discarding the Ji'eh'Toh system. After all, I don't think they were earning Ji in the AoL by growing a taller plant than their neighbor.

 

But I was talking about the Thinkers and their song, and they are already in 'peace, dude' mode, so they'll have no problem with singing the 'Song'.

 

As I said before: It isn’t that easy.

If they Aiel discard ji’e’toh, if they don’t return to the Way of Leaf, they will abandon the Covenant. By doing so, they will fail the Aes Sedai again and they will be slain. If the Aiel don’t return to the Covenant it is almost certain that the Rhuidean visions of Aviendha will come true.

We are discussing the Song(s) here, so we are really going off topic. Linda of the Thirteenth Depository wrote (is writing) a blog about the Aiel. It is started in 2002 and updated ever since. I think it is the best and most complete article about them. It can be found here

 

The Seed Songs are NOT the Aiel Songs. When the Da’Shain Aiel defended Tzora with their bodies and their songs, they used the Aiel songs?

The Seed Songs were performed during the Seed Singing, but we cannot be sure if they were performed by the Aiel as well. The Seed Songs seem to be related to the Tree Songs and the Song of Growing. The latter two can only be performed by the Ogier. The Tinkers could learn the Tree Songs, but they were just songs to them, because the trees don’t listen to human. Will the seeds listen to human.

We have seen Seed Singing on screen. But is possible that the Ogier performed the Seed Songs and the Aiel (one of) their own to enhance them. Even the dance of the Nym might an integral part of the Seed Singing. I know we don’t have proof that the Aiel didn’t perform the Seed Songs, neither we have they did. So, it is just speculation, but as long as I’ve got no further information, I won’t eliminate one of these possibilities. Nevertheless, both ideas have the same weak points:

1. The Nym don’t exist anymore.

2. The Ogier might open the Book of Translation after Tarmon Gaidon, and return to their own world.

 

@Luckers

You reproached me several times that I hadn’t read your theory, you reproached me I hadn’t seen the depth in it ( which is right for there isn’t any), and you reproached me I read too much in the books. Finally you became sarcastic by offering me a list of (in your eyes) not existing songs and how to perform them.

Perhaps you think I’m a noob, because I’ve only posted about hundred times , while you did that over 12.500 times. In that case I’ve to disappoint you. I read the Eye of the World, when you were still walking around in, or had just escaped your pampers.

People might be impressed by your station or by the number of your posts, but I am not one of them, specially not after a warning Sanderson gave in the Gathering Storm.

”And why,” Cadsuane said, “is it that you (Min)think you know more than a respected scholar of the prophecies?” (tGS, Reading the Commentary)

Well, Min was right; not the respected scholar.

( or do I read to much in it too? :jordan::rolleyes: )

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I was reading along the other day, and came to the part where Avi discovers she has a talent for discovering what misc *angreal do. She comes across one that that requires a song to make it function. At first I thought "Maybe that's what the Tinkers are actually looking for!?" And then I thought "Oh that's right, there is no song, this RJ is a moron. He should consult with Luckers on this stuff..."

 

Ah well.

Well, RJ might not have had any need of Luckers, but I'm sure Luckers could tell you that most of us believe this is a Talisman of Growing - a ter'angreal used to grow the Ways when new stedding are found. (It grows holes that are not holes.) It requires a specific song to be activated, but I doubt it would aid the Tinkers much in what they are really looking for (which is that mythological 'safe place' that the Aiel were told to seek when they set out from Paraan Disen...or more accurately, the old days when Dashain Aiel were respected and safe from violence, which is associated with the Singing culture). In any case, it seems likely that this ter'angreal requires an Ogier Voice.

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