Mat's luck is the Dark One's

[yoniy0]

My opinion is that Mat was always going to be lucky, it's crucial to the Light's chances. Naturally, that part was by design (the Wheel does the weaving, not the Pattern, but that's irrelevant). But how did it come about? Is it simply an effect of his ta'veren nature? Jordan's comment suggests otherwise.

 

I don't believe that "the DO's luck" is meant as something the DO actually has, and can lose, however. Mat might have it, but that doesn't mean the DO lacks it (although It never seemed exceptionally lucky to me).

[Hadilmir]

It seems that the Creator the Pattern in these book thinks ahead, and insures that His the main players have what they need.

+10 awesome points for your sarcasm, my good sir.

 

What I find interesting, though, is how did Jordan view the Dark One and what is his "luck"? Is it a tangible thing for the Dark One to lose, or just an expression? If we knew what Jordan's attitude was in regards to how luck and the Dark One are .. joined?(I can't think of the right word to describe what I'm trying to say, darn it)...then we might have a better idea of what Jordan meant when he answered that question.

 

No opinions?

You hit the nail on the head right here. Does the Dark One's Luck equate to his ability to touch the Pattern and alter reality or is there something else we don't specifically know yet? Going by FSM's post-

I just turned up this passage in EotW38:

 

"Blacksmith, perhaps the walls have weakened enough for the DO himself to touch events. Not with a free hand, or we'd be done already, but maybe tiny shiftings in the threads. A chance turning of one corner instead of another, a chance meeting, a chance word, or what seems lke chance, and they could be so far under the Shadow not even Moiraine could bring them back."

We are led to believe the first assumption is true, but as far as I know, we don't know anything else about the Dark One's Luck, atleast not enough to make a theory out of it IMO...

[FarShainMael]

Won't stop us trying though

 

BTW.. 'no direct connection with the Creator'...

 

...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......................

[Dreggs Morlock]

Sorry for the sarcasm, I usually post AFTER any passion I feel has had time to dissipate. I'm actually happy that it only took me changing one word for us to get beyond that discussion and back on the topic at hand. =)

 

I find the whole "Dark One's Luck" topic to have a LOT of similarities to today's "Devil's Luck". People who are really really lucky in reality's past (as well as today) are treated with suspicion, as are those in Randland. When Matt has his lucky night in Tar Valon, those who watch are freaked out, and you could say that it actually creates fear in some...the same way people today would react if someone threw a 7 or 11 in a craps game 10-20 times in a row (once cheating is removed as a reason for the rolls). The "power" behind those casts is not felt to be good, but evil instead.

 

I personally do not think that Matt has ANYTHING from the Dark One, including connections to the DO's supposed luck. Instead, Jordan loved the phrase and what conjecture comes from it, due to his unusual sense of humor. I could be wrong, I often am; but I really think it tickled Jordan pink to make people walk down this road....

[yoniy0]

And so he lied?

[dwn]

There's a fair bit of wiggle room in RJ's quote. He could simply mean that Randlanders (and certainly Whitecloaks) typically attribute anything remotely supernatural to the Dark One. The whole question hinges on "in a way it's true." To me, "in a way" implies "in the same way the typical person attributes anything unusual or supernatural to the Dark One."

 

-- dwn

[Dreggs Morlock]

And so he lied?

I am truly amazed at the "black or white" attitudes at times.

 

If Jordan was, for instance, drawing parallels between both the Dark One and Matt in regards to where they derive their luck, then everything I said was true, and the Dark One & Matt's luck have nothing to do with each other. Perhaps the Dark One is JUST as lucky (in Jordan's mind, since the Dark One hasn't really had a chance to dice like Matt has) as Matt, so the comparison between the 2 is extremely valid, though again, Matt's luck was in no way reliant on the Dark One's luck. In the first case, Matt and the Dark One have the same "luck supplier"; in the second, they are equal in quantity and quality.

 

In either postulate, (and I am absolutely sure there are others) Jordan didn't lie, but he gave an answer that people could quickly draw the wrong conclusions with. In my opinion, if that is the case, he did it happy and on purpose. =)

 

That you could accuse him of lying depends completely on where misdirection becomes a lie. On the other hand, I could be completely wrong (ask my wife, that happens a LOT), and Jordan was giving a big hint as to a connection between Matt and the Dark One; if this is the case, its a big RAFO in MoL.

 

*EDIT* For the record, I would LOVE to be wrong here, because we are in for a treat if I am. I do find a sneaky answer by Jordan in this case to be the more boring of the answers.

[dwn]

It could be argued that the Dark One isn't very lucky at all, since he hasn't managed to win once after a supposedly infinite number of "games." I'm starting to think he orders his equipment from ACME, though surely a rocket and a pair of roller skates would be more cost-effective than, say, Moghedien.

 

-- dwn

[Dreggs Morlock]

It could be argued that the Dark One isn't very lucky at all, since he hasn't managed to win once after a supposedly infinite number of "games." I'm starting to think he orders his equipment from ACME, though surely a rocket and a pair of roller skates would be more cost-effective than, say, Moghedien.

 

-- dwn

LOL

 

Nice!

[yoniy0]

Dreggs, I wasn't accusing RJ of lying. I was saying that I wasn't swayed by your argument. RJ's comment cannot be taken to mean the two (Mat's luck and the DO's) are comparable, or that there's a linguistic connection (i.e., that the saying is popular in Randland), only that some metaphysical connection between the two exists. That is the point he was making, after being asked as to the source of Mat's luck.

 

Naturally, his answer might be misleading. He did love giving AS answers. But it has to hold true, keeping in mind the nature of connection he thought of. That isn't the case in any of the scenarios you suggested, in my opinion, save perhaps for the speculation that they're derived from the same source (but then, it cannot be something mundane - like both being a product of the Pattern - or the connection falters).

 

PS

It is Mat, rather than Matt.

[FarShainMael]

We first hear of Mat's luck in TGH 3, I believe (correct me if wrong). At this point Mat still has the dagger, though he has been partially healed by Moiraine earlier (TEotW42).

So whatever-it-was happened before this.

 

One thing that did happen was that Mat had a dream (TEotW43), in which he met Ba'alzamon, as did Rand in his own dream. They both saw three figures, and Mat picked up the one with the dagger, identifying himself. We don't see this from Mat's PoV; he told Rand about it, so we don't know what else happened to him in the dream; they were interrupted by Moiraine.

 

A thought occurs. Mat had the dagger at that point, and the dagger is full of SL evil - which we know is opposed to the DO's evil. Maybe, at that point, the DO or even Ba'al could not / did not want to take on Mat directly; in a sense, he was 'protected' by having the dagger. So perhaps Ba'al made him lucky, in the hope that it would somehow detach him from the dagger in time. How it ould do that I'm not sure, it depends on how much Ba'al knew about SL and the evil in it. We do know that it is possible to warp chance; there is a ter'angreal that will do it. Possibly Ba'al was trying for a random warping, to make Mat 'accidentally' lose the dagger.. but Mat's ta'verenness took over, and ensured that chance would be warped in his favour.

 

Further to these thoughts: I've just finished my re-read if EotW, and near the end, we find this:

 

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shrivelled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek."

 

Does he mean Mat's dagger? Was Aridhol ever 'an old friend' of the DO? Or does he mean something else? something to do with this?

 

"Blacksmith, perhaps the walls have weakened enough for the DO himself to touch events. Not with a free hand, or we'd be done already, but maybe tiny shiftings in the threads. A chance turning of one corner instead of another, a chance meeting, a chance word, or what seems like chance, and they could be so far under the Shadow not even Moiraine could bring them back."

[Lacanos]

People seem to be arguing that Mat's Ta'veren "gift" is luck, just as Perrin's is his bond with Wolves and Rand's is channeling?!

 

The problem is (and partly why people love Mat so much) is he has so many "supernatural" gifts - not just superhuman luck, but the memories that make him an amazing General

and the fact he can't be touched with the power.

 

Remind me to do a thread later related.

[TristanWebb]

The quote seems to be very open to interpretation, but I always thought that Mat's luck was a result of the bond with the Horn, not that there is any evidence to back that up.

 

Though: 'The grave is no bar to my call', Dark one: Lord of the Grave. Coincidence? I think not. :P

[Hybrid]

It could be argued that the Dark One isn't very lucky at all, since he hasn't managed to win once after a supposedly infinite number of "games."

 

Yes, one would think that the Law of Large Numbers would come into effect at some point if he stood a chance of winning at all.

[Dreggs Morlock]

People seem to be arguing that Mat's Ta'veren "gift" is luck, just as Perrin's is his bond with Wolves and Rand's is channeling?!

 

The problem is (and partly why people love Mat so much) is he has so many "supernatural" gifts - not just superhuman luck, but the memories that make him an amazing General

and the fact he can't be touched with the power.

 

Remind me to do a thread later related.

His gifts as a general and the memories are all from the 'Finns. Before he gets those, he was just a jokster with amazing luck.

 

Yoniy0:

Perhaps I am missing more of the interview that got this whole thing going; but I keep seeing a certainty in people from the interview that there is indeed a connection between Matrim (better =)?) and the DO. But from what I have seen, until now, I can't see how this could be nothing more than a play on words Jordan was enjoying. Can I get more details as to why you are SURE there is more to this?

 

BTW... I am here to learn, not to tell people they are wrong. Every time I read what is in the offing here, I feel more knowledgeable in regards to Randland. Please don't take my questions and assertions as me telling ANYONE they are wrong; only, I am writing what either I believe or I am trying to understand.

[yoniy0]

Yes, one would think that the Law of Large Numbers would come into effect at some point if he stood a chance of winning at all.

Oh no, look what you've done now. You've brought out the mathematician in me again. Must resist urge...

Okay, I won't derail this thread with math. Suffice it to say that the Law of Large Numbers doesn't have to apply here, not the way you mean. If you want, run a search on posts by me containing the words 'probability' and 'independent'; you'll find plenty threadjacking goodness on that.

 

Can I get more details as to why you are SURE there is more to this?

There's nothing more to the quote itself; our disagreement is a linguistic one. I can't see RJ statement meaning what you want it to mean, that's all. That doesn't mean I'm right, but naturally I think so

[Pug]

Ok, so if Mat's luck is the Dark Ones. When and how did he get it?

[FarShainMael]

Ok, so if Mat's luck is the Dark Ones. When and how did he get it?

 

Have a look at my post at the top of this page for my thoughts on that.

[TristanWebb]

Ok, so if Mat's luck is the Dark Ones. When and how did he get it?

 

Have a look at my post at the top of this page for my thoughts on that.

Well, since Aginor was sleeping through all of the age when Aridhol was being corrupted I don't think he would refer to the city itself as either an 'old' friend or enemy. It is possible that the corruption wasn't unique and that it happened to a few places in the war, but that is just an assumption and probably just as valid as yours. The Lan quote is neither here nor there in the discussion though.

[FarShainMael]

The Lan quote shows that he thinks the DO can manipulate threads and use chance. Which might be a description of 'luck'.

[Never]

Ok, so if Mat's luck is the Dark Ones. When and how did he get it?

 

Have a look at my post at the top of this page for my thoughts on that.

Well, since Aginor was sleeping through all of the age when Aridhol was being corrupted I don't think he would refer to the city itself as either an 'old' friend or enemy. It is possible that the corruption wasn't unique and that it happened to a few places in the war, but that is just an assumption and probably just as valid as yours. The Lan quote is neither here nor there in the discussion though.

 

Aginor actually had the ability to, at least to some extent, perceive the world outside his prison.

[TristanWebb]

Aginor actually had the ability to, at least to some extent, perceive the world outside his prison.

I thought only Ishmael could see, and that Beth and Agi just had their body aged while their soul was trapped. Anyway, dragging off topic isn't cool, so how about Mat and those dark powers he has?

[Never]

Just wanted to clear that up. Agi and Balthamel could, to some extent, see the world outside. I saw a Brandon-quote about it, I think, on these forums a while back. Might be that I'm wrong, but if I is, someone wiser will probably correct me : )

[Luckers]

RJ said they were able to see quite clearly, and zoom in and so forth.

[Lacanos]

People seem to be arguing that Mat's Ta'veren "gift" is luck, just as Perrin's is his bond with Wolves and Rand's is channeling?!

 

The problem is (and partly why people love Mat so much) is he has so many "supernatural" gifts - not just superhuman luck, but the memories that make him an amazing General

and the fact he can't be touched with the power.

 

Remind me to do a thread later related.

His gifts as a general and the memories are all from the 'Finns. Before he gets those, he was just a jokster with amazing luck.

 

Yoniy0:

Perhaps I am missing more of the interview that got this whole thing going; but I keep seeing a certainty in people from the interview that there is indeed a connection between Matrim (better =)?) and the DO. But from what I have seen, until now, I can't see how this could be nothing more than a play on words Jordan was enjoying. Can I get more details as to why you are SURE there is more to this?

 

BTW... I am here to learn, not to tell people they are wrong. Every time I read what is in the offing here, I feel more knowledgeable in regards to Randland. Please don't take my questions and assertions as me telling ANYONE they are wrong; only, I am writing what either I believe or I am trying to understand.

 

 

Equally, the luck had to come from somewhere. It presumably came from one of several sources. 1) I rather like the idea it's linked to the Horn of Valere in some way, it did arrive at the same time. 2) The Dagger link somehow. 3) Some direct link from the Dark One. 4) Some amazing supermagical unidentified and unhinted link of luck from the Pattern. Thus, saying it's his "equivalent" gift doesn't really fit, at least in my opinion.

 

The reason people say it's not a play on words is because he was directly contradicting the idea it was just a saying, for example.