Does Enviroment Affect Balefire?

[Terez]

Brandon said those were indirect effects, so the balefire didn't reverse them.

[The Fisher King]

I hate Fisher King posts.

 

 

I love you too, JustCharlie :-)

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

Thanks to all the kind words above and a couple of those balefire numeric breakdowns are really interesting to look at. Ive had some terrible blows recently, which is why I can't post as much, but I read it all and this Board has always helped get me through the tough times.

 

I wasn't really upset with anyone (Terez) - I just am not used to today's accepted debating style chock full of innuendo, snideness, sarcasm and such.

Yet your posts are full of it, regardless of what you intend. It was extremely condescending of you to make the comment about 'RJ isn't perfect', for example, not just because you were wrong about that particular point, but also (and especially) because you were implying that we thought otherwise, when as far as I could see, there was nothing in the thread up to that point to indicate any such thing.

 

But thats my bad, not hers. She does a great job with all of it and she is great at the quotes - very befitting of her chosen 'Title' lol ;) Her index of interviews pertaining to WOT is AWESOME. I think, as she said, we were just misunderstanding each other.

I think we still are. No offense; just thought you might want to be aware that your posting style has some offensive quirks. Some probably don't care, but there are probably many who do. I'm just one of the few...undiplomatic?...enough to say anything about it.

 

I guess you didn't read above where I stated I was in no way intending to be snide about RJ. Either you didn't read it, you don't believe me when I say that I wasn't, or you believe that I wasn't but just that my communication within the post itself screams that regardless of my intention. Either way, I can't help it. Everyon has ''quirks'' to their posting style - because we are all different and come from different backgrounds, often different languages and different writing styles. Im sorry if mine offends you. You are certainly quite the taskmistress. Perhaps I should rescind all my kind words about you above - just kidding. I'm a sincere kind of guy and you really do do a tremendous job with all of those interviews...''Quote Mistress.''

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

Thanks to all the kind words above and a couple of those balefire numeric breakdowns are really interesting to look at. Ive had some terrible blows recently, which is why I can't post as much, but I read it all and this Board has always helped get me through the tough times.

 

I wasn't really upset with anyone (Terez) - I just am not used to today's accepted debating style chock full of innuendo, snideness, sarcasm and such.

Yet your posts are full of it, regardless of what you intend. It was extremely condescending of you to make the comment about 'RJ isn't perfect', for example, not just because you were wrong about that particular point, but also (and especially) because you were implying that we thought otherwise, when as far as I could see, there was nothing in the thread up to that point to indicate any such thing.

 

I guess you didn't read above where I stated I was in no way intending to be snide about RJ.

Why would you even consider that I didn't read that when I specifically addressed it? Again, this is a problem of reading comprehension.

[SuperFade]

To be honest Terez, you yourself can be extremely condescending and snide at times, even though in this instance Fish has it wrong.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks to all the kind words above and a couple of those balefire numeric breakdowns are really interesting to look at. Ive had some terrible blows recently, which is why I can't post as much, but I read it all and this Board has always helped get me through the tough times.

 

I wasn't really upset with anyone (Terez) - I just am not used to today's accepted debating style chock full of innuendo, snideness, sarcasm and such.

Yet your posts are full of it, regardless of what you intend. It was extremely condescending of you to make the comment about 'RJ isn't perfect', for example, not just because you were wrong about that particular point, but also (and especially) because you were implying that we thought otherwise, when as far as I could see, there was nothing in the thread up to that point to indicate any such thing.

 

I guess you didn't read above where I stated I was in no way intending to be snide about RJ.

Why would you even consider that I didn't read that when I specifically addressed it? Again, this is a problem of reading comprehension.

 

 

Terez. Gee whiz. Ok, I am just going to say that I don't know what else to do. I have ALREADY made an entire post above admitting that my perception of the Balefire ''Rules'' could very well be wrong. Ive already apologized if you felt like my posts were snide or ''offensive'' as you put it and Ive already above stated multiple times that I wasn't being snide towards RJ. Ive also listed more specific examples of what I was trying to discuss regarding Balefire. Ive already recieved four bewildered pms in my inbox asking me what the deal is here with why you just can't let it go - why you're on me regarding this like a dog with a bone. At this point, I honestly don't know what to tell them. Look - I don't know you so I certainly don't dislike you - and I often enjoy your posts, but come on girl - lighten up a wee bit. This is a Discussion Forum for WOT and I like talking - and getting different takes on - Balefire. I think maybe our joint presence in Balefire Discussions just sems to generate too much of a misunderstanding between our two different posting styles (as you yourself put it) and I'm sorry about that. I am moving on and going to continue to discuss many of the different instances of the use of Balefire throughout the series and I wish you well.

 

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

Ok, back to the discussion at hand, if we may, lol.

 

Ive always been fascinated by the scope of Balefire but even more by the inherent contradictory paradoxes it presents - much like the plethora of inevitable paradoxes created by any use of Time Travel.

 

It just raises so many interesting questions to me. People have asked ''Why don't they just BF The DO out of existence?'' And of course, that amount would tear Creation itself apart.

 

But, why am I the only one who has ever wondered: ''Why don't team Dark just BF RAND???''

 

What about Liah? Shadar Logoth? Min? Mat? Semi? The Darkhounds?

 

What if Rand had walked up on Gran right after she toasted Asmo? What if Rand had BFed Graendal? Would Asmo have popped back into existence?

 

Wouldn't that be the same principles used regarding Rhavin, Avi and Mat and the lightening?

 

 

Fish

[Leyrann]

You can't balefire the DO out of existence, because he has no thread you can burn out. This has been discussed very much on Theoryland at least.

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

And yes, Asmo would've popped back in existence.

[Terez]

To be honest Terez, you yourself can be extremely condescending and snide at times, even though in this instance Fish has it wrong.

Yes, I know. When I'm condescending, I intend to be, and I never have a problem owning up to it as there is usually a damn good reason for it.

[The Fisher King]

To be honest Terez, you yourself can be extremely condescending and snide at times, even though in this instance Fish has it wrong.

Yes, I know. When I'm condescending, I intend to be, and I never have a problem owning up to it as there is usually a damn good reason for it.

 

Annnnd my posting here is a ''damn good reason for it'' ??

 

Ok. Anyone who reads this entire thread can see the multiple times I tried to close the book on this civilly. But you want to go?

 

A guy can only be expected to take so many shots.

 

*Takes Gloves Off*

 

Lets go. We can burn the whole damn Board down for all I care at this point.

 

What do you got, ''Quote Mistress''?

 

It's on.

 

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

*Edited, per request*

[wendis184]

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

 

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

[Suttree]

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

 

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

 

Balefire does not erase a thread from the pattern. You will still be reborn, what it does is make it impossible for the DO to resurrect you.

 

As for RJ changing his mind, that is the first I have heard that. Don't think it is the case, would be interested in seeing quotes if it is true however.

[wendis184]

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

 

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

 

Balefire does not erase a thread from the pattern. You will still be reborn, what it does is make it impossible for the DO to resurrect you.

 

As for RJ changing his mind, that is the first I have heard that. Don't think it is the case, would be interested in seeing quotes if it is true however.

 

That still seems a little off since they say that the DO is the lord of death and whatnot. So, if you could still be reborn your soul would still have to be around for it to be tethered to another body, so shouldn't the dark one be able to find a soul that has been balefired if it isn't actually burned out of the pattern?

[Suttree]

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

 

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

 

Balefire does not erase a thread from the pattern. You will still be reborn, what it does is make it impossible for the DO to resurrect you.

 

As for RJ changing his mind, that is the first I have heard that. Don't think it is the case, would be interested in seeing quotes if it is true however.

 

That still seems a little off since they say that the DO is the lord of death and whatnot. So, if you could still be reborn your soul would still have to be around for it to be tethered to another body, so shouldn't the dark one be able to find a soul that has been balefired if it isn't actually burned out of the pattern?

 

He can not resurrect them because in burning the thread back, a forsaken is essentially dead before the DO knows it has happened. This is backed up with quotes from RJ.

[wendis184]

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

 

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

 

Balefire does not erase a thread from the pattern. You will still be reborn, what it does is make it impossible for the DO to resurrect you.

 

As for RJ changing his mind, that is the first I have heard that. Don't think it is the case, would be interested in seeing quotes if it is true however.

 

That still seems a little off since they say that the DO is the lord of death and whatnot. So, if you could still be reborn your soul would still have to be around for it to be tethered to another body, so shouldn't the dark one be able to find a soul that has been balefired if it isn't actually burned out of the pattern?

 

He can not resurrect them because in burning the thread back, a forsaken is essentially dead before the DO knows it has happened. This is backed up with quotes from RJ.

 

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. That makes a lot more sense.

[Terez]

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

I think Leyrann was specifically referring to this signing report:

 

JordanCon 24 April 2010 - blindillusion reporting

 

blindillusion: Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?

 

Brandon: (Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist) – Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.

 

- I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that: The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern. (Again, not his exact words, but this pretty close. Perhaps J.D can back me up here. He was there.)

Since the underlined bit keeps coming up, I asked Brandon about this today:

 

Terez on Twitter - 29 August 2011

A signing report implies that you said that RJ changed his mind on whether balefire = eternal death of soul. This true?

Terez

Here is a direct link to that particular report: http://bit.ly/nKpOSS @Blindillusion13 is unable to clarify.

Terez

I always assumed what you really said (or really meant) was that you had believed it was the eternal death of the soul...

Terez

...but then when you joined Team Jordan you learned differently (you said elsewhere that @MariaLSimons had to convince you).

Brandon

You have the right of it, Terez. I always believed that balefire=Eternal Death.

Brandon

Team Jordan instructed me that this was not the case, and balefire meant the Dark One could not recover the soul.

And of course we have known since 1998 that balefire is not the eternal death of the soul, because several people asked RJ about it on the TPOD tour and at other times, but I thought this report strange when I first saw it, because it would seem odd for Brandon to tell people that RJ had changed his mind about something like that, even if it were true. Some people think that a line in the BWB about 'souls forever erased from the Pattern' is evidence that RJ changed his mind, but it's pretty weak evidence. As I've said elsewhere, nothing should be dismissed as evidence just because it's in the BWB, but it still has to be taken in the proper context (as a fallible yet presumably mostly correct history), and weighed against what is in the books, and what the interviews tell us. It just doesn't make any sense that RJ would change his mind about it randomly on the TPOD tour, a year after the BWB was published.

[The Fisher King]

 

And maybe Rand is balefired some times. But balefire doesn't destroy a soul forever. RJ first intended it to do that, but he decided later not to do that. I think that is also the reason there are still Forsaken alive...

 

 

Did RJ ever say that anywhere? I'm not accusing, just wondering. I thought it did burn their soul forever, since that's why Rand switched to killing Forsaken with ONLY balefire and nothing else so that they couldn't be brought back (after he realized this Moridin character was actually Ishamael).

 

Balefire does not erase a thread from the pattern. You will still be reborn, what it does is make it impossible for the DO to resurrect you.

 

As for RJ changing his mind, that is the first I have heard that. Don't think it is the case, would be interested in seeing quotes if it is true however.

 

That still seems a little off since they say that the DO is the lord of death and whatnot. So, if you could still be reborn your soul would still have to be around for it to be tethered to another body, so shouldn't the dark one be able to find a soul that has been balefired if it isn't actually burned out of the pattern?

 

He can not resurrect them because in burning the thread back, a forsaken is essentially dead before the DO knows it has happened. This is backed up with quotes from RJ.

 

Moiraine may have been a bit prejudiced, by being a Blue (Causes) and by being so fixed on logic (As an Aes Sedai - though the Blues were not as obsessed with it as the Whites), but she definitely saw the Pattern as a single fabric that needed to stay whole for her goals to be met. And she feared that BF could start unravelling the Pattern thread by thread. This almost seemed to scare her more than cities being burned out of existence or the DO breaking free. Her fears ARE backed up by history to a certain extent as Demandred recalls its use during the War of Power. Of course, he is a Forsaken, so he is as biased from his perspective as Moiraine is from hers as a Blue. But it can't be denied that it is a very risky and unstable Power, Risks aside, however, it seems odd still that it hasn't been studied more. Especially by a Brown like Verin.

 

 

Fish

[ironisles]

Being killed while in the flesh n TAR would remove you wouldn't it? The final death of Hopper?

[Hadilmir]

That still seems a little off since they say that the DO is the lord of death and whatnot. So, if you could still be reborn your soul would still have to be around for it to be tethered to another body, so shouldn't the dark one be able to find a soul that has been balefired if it isn't actually burned out of the pattern?

 

Think of it this way-

 

Metaphysically, there is an ocean of souls 'below' the world in WoT. A living soul extends from the 'Sea of Souls' and into the Pattern, it still originates in the 'ocean', but the 'top' end of the flow reaches into the world. When a soul dies, the column extending from the ocean to the world collapses downwards, like the water running out of a straw. The Dark One can grab said column and stop if from collapsing, but he cannot pull a soul directly out of the 'Sea of Souls'. However, if balefired, the column seems to have started collapsing before the point in time which the person died, their soul was burned back out of the Pattern in negative time. Because the point in time when the soul collapsed is effectively a paradox, the Dark One cannot have 'grabbed' the soul before it began returning to the 'Sea of Souls' and even if the Dark One caught it 'halfway' due to weak balefire, the Dark One doesn't have the power to pull it back 'up' into the Pattern.

 

Did this help or did it simply muddle whatever conclusion you had already come to?

[Terez]

Being killed while in the flesh n TAR would remove you wouldn't it? The final death of Hopper?

In the flesh, probably not. See my footnote:

 

Hopper confirms that when wolves die in the wolf dream, they die forever. (4.28) Birgitte confirms the same for Heroes of the Horn; or rather, we get this information indirectly from Nynaeve. (5.14) Also, Machin Shin eats souls, and in a previous interview, RJ said that the Dark One metaphorically has 'eaten' the soul of someone who becomes a Gray Man or Gray Woman. These all appear to be permanent forms of death.

I probably need to add Draghkar to that, since they also eat souls.

 

Also, RJ said that theoretically very weak balefire would not prevent transmigration.

[Hadilmir]

Also, RJ said that theoretically very weak balefire would not prevent transmigration.

 

Ahh, yes, but how weak would said balefire have to be? Given Masema's 'falling into the blackness' death sequence, I assume it may take a fraction of a second for the soul to 'flow' out of the Pattern, although perhaps I misjudge the length of time the soul takes to actually leave the Pattern at death.

[Sharaman]

The GLoD has a small window of opportunity to grab the soul at death. That window would be defined by both time and space.

Balefire obviously scrambles the time element of the window.

Perhaps being killed in TAR or being killed while passing through a Gateway (that is,in-between two spatial locations) would scramble the space coordinates.

Asmo could not be resurrected even if the GLoD had wanted to, because of both the how and where he was killed. That RJ quote (I am paraphrasing hence no quote marks) is unlikely to be ever clarified now given the reveal in ToM. So it leave some intriguing possibilities.

 

With respect to TAR, if it's entered in sleep, the physical body is in one locale but the soul is -- where? Is the soul "spread" across two locales or just in TAR?

If TAR is entered in the flesh, the body and soul are in one locale so thew GLoD's coordinates should not be scrambled.

In Graendal's last PoV from ToM, just before Shaidar arrives, she is also thinking of running away to a Mirror world, which she believes could save her from the GLoD's wrath.

Another intriguing possibility there - can He grab souls from Mirror Worlds?

[Terez]

I always thought 'how' and 'where' was a matter of 'very small amount of balefire' added to 'distance from Shayol Ghul'.

[Sharaman]

I always thought 'how' and 'where' was a matter of 'very small amount of balefire' added to 'distance from Shayol Ghul'.

That explanation still doesn't seem to fulfil the coupled where and how conditions.

If it's a very small amount of BF then it would be only the "distance" that was relevant.

And if it's a lot of balefire, then distance would be irrelevant.