Lanfear/Cyndane Strength

[Thor]

Rand can shield both Elayne and Egwene together pretty effortlessly, Lanfear I would assume also shielded (or at least hurt them enough to prevent them channeling) Egwene and Aviendha easily.

 

Everybody is saying that Lanfear is only second to Ishamael, which I don't quite agree with, I still feel Demandred is stronger than Lanfear.

 

We know that females are far weaker than males in strength.

 

So I really can't see Lanfear to be more than 80% of Rand's strength.

 

We know that Rand's angreal is weak, the portal stone demonstrated that. Again in Lord of Chaos, even with the angreal, Rand still could not shield all 6 AS at the same time even with the angreal.

 

Now if you say that Lanfear is weaker than I suggested, and the angreal is even stronger, then Rand with angreal is easily 3 or more times stronger than Lanfear.

 

No, when someone is 3 or more times stronger than you, there is no way to block the blows. You can deflect, you can dodge, you cannot block.

 

There is no ways that Lanfear went in to the fight without her own angreal.

 

Moiraine said that everything went as she hoped, not as she planned. So still, no trap suggested there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You still failed to answer either of my questions. Is that because you can't?

 

Here they are again, for your convenience.

 

Why did Moiraine set the angreal bracelet out in advance, if not to trap Lanfear?

 

and

 

Why did Moiraine take Rand to the docks that morning, if not to be in position to trap Lanfear?

[Mat is the Boss]

1. Another point is that Rand don`t use his angreal until he is forced to when Lanfear suddenly tries to cut him of from the Source.

 

2. Lanfear is the strongest female, Rand the strongest male. Which means that it`s an even fight, didn`t RJ talk bout this on his blog? I`ll try to find it.

[Thor]

You still failed to answer either of my questions. Is that because you can't?

 

Here they are again' date=' for your convenience.

 

Why did Moiraine set the angreal bracelet out in advance, if not to trap Lanfear?

 

and

 

Why did Moiraine take Rand to the docks that morning, if not to be in position to trap Lanfear?[/quote']

 

Answer to both question is, she tried to emulate what she saw in the rings.

 

But there was no plan of a trap.

 

Mat is the boss:

Where does it say that Rand only started using the angreal halfway through the fight?

[SBoydW]

Everybody is saying that Lanfear is only second to Ishamael, which I don't quite agree with

 

The BWB on page 61 says that Lanfear is the most powerful of the forsaken, and probably the most powerful of all next to Ishamael. So she is second to Ishamael, and is QUITE strong. And at the point where she is fighting Rand, she may very well be equal in power to him. Meaning she would need the angreal in order to kill him like she wanted.

 

Answer to both question is, she tried to emulate what she saw in the rings.

 

SHE SAW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. A TRAP!!!!

[Thor]

What she saw is not what she planned, she didn't plan, she hoped for the best. It's like putting your hand into a dark bag an coming out with the treassure.

 

The BWB only says that she is possibly second only to Ishamael, that is no firm conclusion and unless RJ comes out and say "Lanfear is stronger than Demandred", then there is no ways that you can solidly say that Lanfear is stronger than Demandred.

 

Doesn't matter how strong Lanfear is, she still isn't stronger than Rand, so my argument that she must have had her own angreal before the fight started still holds.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I can't believe we've started arguing about whether the Docks were a trap that Moiraine set for Lanfear. The fact that it was is one of the most obvious points in the book.

 

The Fires of Heaven: Chapter 52, "Choices"

 

[Kadere PoV]

For once the Aes Sedai turned down the tail end of the line of wagons without so much as a glance at Kadere. He was just as glad. Even if she had not been Aes Sedai, even if she had not looked at him as if she knew every black corner of his mind, he would as soon not have looked too closely at some of the things she had filled his wagons with. Yesterday evening she had made him strip the canvas off that oddly twisted redstone doorframe in the wagon just behind his. She seemed to take a perverse delight in making him help her himself with whatever she wanted to study. He would have covered the thing up again if he could bear to go near it, or could make any of his drivers do so. None with him now had seen Herid fall half through it in Rhuidean and half disappear -- Herid had been the first to run away once they cleared the Jangai; the man had not been entirely right in the head after the Warder hauled him back -- but they could look at it, see the way the corners did not meet properly, how you could not follow it around with your eyes without blinking and growing dizzy.

 

...

 

[Moiraine PoV]

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean. Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter. Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles where bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

 

Moiraine was very careful with the Angreal and Ter'angreal that she brought out of Rhuidean. Then, a day before the Docks, she has the cover pulled of the Doorframe and leaves it that way? Not only that, but she gets careless and leaves the angreal lying right next to it? I don't think so. Those are both prime examples that she was preparing the battlefield her way. She allowed Lanfear to think Lanfear was holding all the cards and then, in classic Moiraine fashion, she dealt a sucker punch. That makes it a trap.

[Thor]

A trap is a plan where everything is under your control.

 

Did Moiraine have control of when Lanfear picks up the angreal? No.

 

Did Moiraine have control of where Lanfear went after picking up the angreal? No.

 

Did Moiraine have control of what Rand/Lanfear or anyone except herself would do? No.

 

What happened, was due to the mechanisms of the wheel, the pattern and some ta vareness.

[SBoydW]

A trap is a plan where everything is under your control.

 

No a trap is when you have information on the enemy that they don't know you have and you use what you know they are going to do against them. The only thing you control is your own actions. You don't need to control what the person being trapped is doing because you know what they are going to do already.

 

Did Moiraine have control of when Lanfear picks up the angreal? No.

 

You're right she didn't. But Moiraine didn't need it because she knew that Lanfear was going to have the angreal at the right time due to her dream.

 

Did Moiraine have control of where Lanfear went after picking up the angreal? No.

 

No. But again due to her dream she didn't need it because she knew that Lanfear was going to be on that wagon bed. She knew than Lanfear wasn't going to move.

 

Did Moiraine have control of what Rand/Lanfear or anyone except herself would do? No.

 

Yes she made Rand come to the docks and knew that once he was fighting Lanfear he wasn't going anywhere. He was the distraction she needed to spring her trap. But no she didn't control Lanfear. But she didn't need it because she knew Lanfear was going to do what she wanted anyways.

 

 

 

What happened

 

The trap.

 

was due to the mechanisms of the wheel, the pattern

 

Right it let her see the vision in Rhuidean to set the trap and spring it

 

and some ta vareness

 

Maybe some Ta'veren effect kept Rand alive.

[Guest cwestervelt]

A trap is a plan where everything is under your control.

 

Did Moiraine have control of when Lanfear picks up the angreal? No.

 

Did Moiraine have control of where Lanfear went after picking up the angreal? No.

 

Did Moiraine have control of what Rand/Lanfear or anyone except herself would do? No.

 

What happened' date=' was due to the mechanisms of the wheel, the pattern and some ta vareness.[/quote']

 

You can't control when or if a bear steps on the trigger for a jaw trap. You can't control when or if an animal will fall into a pit trap. You also can't guarantee that they won't escape from the them. They are still considered traps though.

 

To me it sounds sounds like you are confusing the desired results of the trap (situational control, death of target, whatever) with the trap itself. The angreal was bait to get Lanfear in front of the Doorway and nothing more. As with any trap, you cannot force the target to actually take the bait. You have to trust to luck (your Mechanisms of the Wheel, Patter, Ta'verenness, etc.) that the target will actually fall into the trap. Only after the trap is sprung can you attempt to establish the control you are talking about.

 

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

I can't pinpoint the original source as it I see it credited to Dwight Eisenhower and Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Moltke. I recall it being cited in the Wheel of Time books by Mat or Rhuarc too.

[SBoydW]

You have to trust to luck (your Mechanisms of the Wheel, Patter, Ta'verenness, etc.) that the target will actually fall into the trap. Only after the trap is sprung can you attempt to establish the control you are talking about.

 

Actually (not bashing you because I think we agree that this was a trap) but in this case Moiraine didn't really need luck. She knew the seires of events that would happen and used them to her advantage. Not a lot of luck with this trap.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You have to trust to luck (your Mechanisms of the Wheel' date=' Patter, Ta'verenness, etc.) that the target will actually fall into the trap. Only after the trap is sprung can you attempt to establish the control you are talking about.[/quote']

 

Actually (not bashing you because I think we agree that this was a trap) but in this case Moiraine didn't really need luck. She knew the seires of events that would happen and used them to her advantage. Not a lot of luck with this trap.

 

Lanfear still had to take the bait. Being a 1 in 3 shot, the odds were against her so she did need to get lucky. Mostly I mentioned the need for luck because it is necessary for traps in general. Something can always go wrong and the target can get lucky too. The better planned and layed out the trap, the less luck is needed, but it will never be perfect.

[SBoydW]

Lanfear still had to take the bait. Being a 1 in 3 shot, the odds were against her so she did need to get lucky. Mostly I mentioned the need for luck because it is necessary for traps in general. Something can always go wrong and the target can get lucky too. The better planned and layed out the trap, the less luck is needed, but it will never be perfect.

 

Ok.. I can agree with that. But luck was minimal in this trap.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Lanfear still had to take the bait. Being a 1 in 3 shot' date=' the odds were against her so she did need to get lucky. Mostly I mentioned the need for luck because it is necessary for traps in general. Something can always go wrong and the target can get lucky too. The better planned and layed out the trap, the less luck is needed, but it will never be perfect.[/quote']

 

Ok.. I can agree with that. But luck was minimal in this trap.

 

Agree.

[SBoydW]

I think that hat is the first time the word "agree" had been tossed around like that... :D