Lanfear/Cyndane Strength

[rd2000]

Her beauty and strength both would have helped the DO. Reducing both, or either, only makes her a less valuable weapon to the DO.

[Thor]

There is no evidence to support that she has been through the gateways before, so I disagree with that.

 

Her beauty has been known throught the world even before the bore. She didn't have the third name though, so maybe her strength did change?

 

Anyways, about her strength, she is definitely without a doubt the strongest woman channeler ever. Notice that even after she was weakened as cyndane, she is still stronger than Graendal. I think that says a lot.

[olio]

Well to The DO she is already changed bodies, her looks will change and if Lanfear was the prettiest woman around. would make her slightly less pretty in another body.... so, as a punishment for her betrayl to the DO why not take away some of her power and enslave her to Mordin??

[olio]

And to say the DO can't do that. He brings people back from the dead in other bodies.... i think when he brings them back he could make changes...

[RobertAlexWillis]

as a punishment for her betrayl to the DO why not take away some of her power and enslave her to Mordin??

 

The Dark One has no interest in punitive punishment, except to serve as an example. The DO views his servants as tools, and weakening a tool is pointless. Mindtrapping Lanfear/Cyndane is sufficient in the way of "punishment" and maintaining control. It would make no sense for the Dark One to weaken her after that. He wants effective servants.

[olio]

RobertAlexWillis

 

 

The Dark One has no interest in punitive punishment, except to serve as an example. The DO views his servants as tools, and weakening a tool is pointless. Mindtrapping Lanfear/Cyndane is sufficient in the way of "punishment" and maintaining control. It would make no sense for the Dark One to weaken her after that. He wants effective servants.

 

 

You said it yourself he doesn{t do punitive punishment.. and when he punish he does it hard and to make a point... to say he brought her back as Cyndane as a punishment is saying all the other forsaken brought back was punished... tha is not a punishment that is bringing tools back to further your cause.

 

But, he did give her to Mordin and Moghedien as punishment of betrayal.. But, Moghedien only gave secrets over to some punitive so called Aes Sedai. Is what the forsaken thinks of them... and the DO less of them... But, Lanfear helped out is enemy through out the Ages... The Dragon... so why not punish her more to make an example of her??

[RobertAlexWillis]

But, Lanfear helped out is enemy through out the Ages... The Dragon... so why not punish her more to make an example of her??

 

Mindtrapping someone is punishment enough, and weakening her in the Power makes her less able to do his bidding. Mindtrap = sensible. It maintains control, and all the other Forsaken pretty much know whats going on, so it is an example to the others. Weakening her = stupid. It makes her less able to help him achieve his goals. Since the Dark One has to work through humans to bring about his freedom still, he's not going to weaken his own tools.

[olio]

If it wasn't because the dark opne was punishing her why wouldn't he restore her to her full power?

 

Since bringing people back from the dead is not that big of a thing for the DO. since Semerige can bring people back from the dead.. Reason why she crossed over to the shadow....

If she can bring people back.. i would think the dark lord could alter their use of the power when he is remaking them...

[Cybertrolloc]

Semi could do things other healers couldn't in AoL. Don't know if this includes bringing someone back from death though (personally I would doubt that).

 

The Mindtrap doesn't seem to be a public thing though. I think the other Forsaken have wondered about what hold Moridin has on Mog and Cyn, but can't think of another Forsaken even speculating on Mindtrap being a possibility (though some of it may be ego).

[olio]

I don't remeber which book it was in... But, I remember the text she was talking about her being shunned by the Aes Sedai in the AoL for bringing people back from the dead with what she called ' a little pain' mwuahahaha... read through the books cyber you will find it :D

[algspkr]

I don't remeber which book it was in... But, I remember the text she was talking about her being shunned by the Aes Sedai in the AoL for bringing people back from the dead with what she called ' a little pain' mwuahahaha... read through the books cyber you will find it :D

She did not bring people back from the dead, she Healed people other Aes Sedai said were beyond help. She was wisked around the world to heal those with no hope of survival, she was the best healer, but she did not rais the dead.

 

She saw the other Aes Sedai as being jealous of her when they objected to her pleasures recieved while healing people. She would torture people as she healed them and this lead to leagal action being taken against her. She was given the option of being severed/stilled, or bound on the oath rod. Rather than accpting one of these punishments she fled to Shaol Goul and sold her soul.

 

As to weather or not the other Aes Sedai where jealous of her is an unsettled question, we have her word, for what a Forsaken's word is worth, and we have the fact that she was honored for her Healing with a third name.

[Thor]

It is crystal clear from Cyndane's pov that it was the finns who weakened her, not DO.

[chemteach1977]

Fact is, we just don't know why Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear. Seems likely that Lanfear died and was placed in a new body by the DO. That is the only way we have seen SO FAR for someone to end up in a new body.

 

That in itself does not explain the weakening in the OP. If she were severed from the power as Lanfear, i think she would be restored to normal once she is brought back as Cyndane. When Aginor faced Rand at tEotW he drew too much of the power and burnt himself to a cinder. We have been told over and over again that drawing too much of the power will cause a channeler to "burn themselves out" Safe to assume that enough power to burn someone up would also burn out the ability to channel. (note this is burned out, not severed. if anything should be harder to fix)

 

When Aginor is reincarnated, his ability to channel is restored to full strength as far as we know. And he still channels saidin so the channeling is a function of his resurected soul/consciousness whatever. Not from his current body.

 

For the whole severed/healed theory to work with Lanfear, she would have to be severed and healed after being resurected as Cyndane and that seems unlikely and counter to her POV. I do not agree with Thor though. I don't think it is at all clear how she was weakened.

 

2 questions

 

1. If the weakening happened before she died, i think it would be "reset" by her resurection.

 

2. If she did not die, why the heck is she in a new body? (and how did she get out of finnland?)

[Thor]

Goodness gracious, read her pov again when she faced Alivia. Definitely the finns who weakened her.

 

What happened is not relevent anyways.

 

I think you also got a bit mixed up between Aginor and Balthamel.

 

Aginor is Dashiva, Balthamal is Halima.

[Cybertrolloc]

Well it's one line that says Alivia is as strong as I was before the Finns held me. That's impossible (whether ego or there's an actual reason for it), therefor she must have an angreal.

 

It's suggestive, but not airtight. Regardless of chemteach's not specifying Bathamael's name in his list, I don't see anything that isn't supported in many places in the books and can't recall anything that would call those conclusions into question.

[chemteach1977]

Mea Culpa

 

Osan'gar/Dashiva apparently has the same channeling ability as Aginor. We know this because Rand says he can channel almost as much of the power as Rand himself. This is despite the fact that he almost certainly burned himself out at tEotW.

 

If the finns somehow reduced Lanfear's strength, it should have been "reset" upon death. Unless she did not die and the new body is somehow part of the deal with the Finns too?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Goodness gracious, read her pov again when she faced Alivia. Definitely the finns who weakened her.

 

Not the case. All Cyndane says in her POV is this:

 

 

Then the woman [Alivia] struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her!

 

Winter's Heart, chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal

 

All that means is that Lanfear's strength before being held is less than it is "now", and less than what Alivia was using. It doesn't say how or why her strength was reduced. Being burned out by the ter'angreal melting fits that statement as well as anything, and fits the rest of what we know better.

[Luckers]

Indeed, that statement merely indicates that she was severed from her strength before she came in contact with the Finns, not as a result of any action of the Finns (though that is not precluded by the statement, though in truth had it been the case, i rather suspect that the statement would have been more accusative - 'She was stronger then Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn stole her strength' - but again, thats conjecture).

 

If it wasn't because the dark opne was punishing her why wouldn't he restore her to her full power?

 

Because he did not restore her. One, we have seen no indication that he has any ability to restore the ability to channel to a severed forsaken... indeed their ongoing fear of being severed through the series suggests that he does not, or at the very least has never done so in the past. Now concider this, Cyndane is reborn after Moghedian returns to Shayol Ghoul with knowledge of Nynaeves ability to heal. Given that that knowledge spread amongst all the Rebels, as had the ability to travel, a simple dream message to Aran'gar could have had a Black Sister in Shayoul Ghoul in less then a day, with no real effort on anyones part. Indeed, we know from Egwene that MANY sisters went off traveling and not revealing their destinations.

 

It's not only viable, it makes sense for the Shadow to call on one of the Rebels when discovering Cyndane had been severed.

[algspkr]

Indeed, that statement merely indicates that she was severed from her strength before she came in contact with the Finns, not as a result of any action of the Finns (though that is not precluded by the statement, though in truth had it been the case, i rather suspect that the statement would have been more accusative - 'She was stronger then Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn stole her strength' - but again, thats conjecture).

 

If it wasn't because the dark opne was punishing her why wouldn't he restore her to her full power?

 

Because he did not restore her. One, we have seen no indication that he has any ability to restore the ability to channel to a severed forsaken... indeed their ongoing fear of being severed through the series suggests that he does not, or at the very least has never done so in the past. Now concider this, Cyndane is reborn after Moghedian returns to Shayol Ghoul with knowledge of Nynaeves ability to heal. Given that that knowledge spread amongst all the Rebels, as had the ability to travel, a simple dream message to Aran'gar could have had a Black Sister in Shayoul Ghoul in less then a day, with no real effort on anyones part. Indeed, we know from Egwene that MANY sisters went off traveling and not revealing their destinations.

 

It's not only viable, it makes sense for the Shadow to call on one of the Rebels when discovering Cyndane had been severed.

I never thought of the healing like that Luckers. I do hope Moiraine is heaked by a man (assuming she was stilled)

[Thor]

Goodness gracious' date=' read her pov again when she faced Alivia. Definitely the finns who weakened her.[/quote']

 

Not the case. All Cyndane says in her POV is this:

 

 

Then the woman [Alivia] struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her!

 

Winter's Heart, chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal

 

All that means is that Lanfear's strength before being held is less than it is "now", and less than what Alivia was using. It doesn't say how or why her strength was reduced. Being burned out by the ter'angreal melting fits that statement as well as anything, and fits the rest of what we know better.

 

Yes, "being held" is the keyword.

 

She was weakened while being held by the finns, she was not weakened by the DO.

[chemteach1977]

My point is still not getting addressed so i will restate it one more time.

 

If Lanfear is severed before dieing and being brought back by the DO, why would the severing still be there? Aginor overdosed on the power to the point of death. Seems almost certain that the ability to channel would be burnt out as he died. IMO that is what killed him, he was full to bursting with the power and suddenly lost the ability to connect and control the source and he burnt up like a tiki torch.

When the unfortunate Aginor is brought back, his power is back to full strength. IIRC this is before Nynaeve learned to heal severing. Seems to me that any changes to ones ability to channel should reset upon death.

Something extra fishy is going on with Lanfyndane.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Aginor overdosed on the power to the point of death. Seems almost certain that the ability to channel would be burnt out as he died.

 

Thats where you're running into the problem. You can OD on the Power (like Aginor) and not burn out your ability to channel before you die, since you're still drawing the Power as you die. Lanfear had the ability burned out before she died, and therefore had to have it restored.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, "being held" is the keyword.

 

She was weakened while being held by the finns, she was not weakened by the DO.

 

-sigh-

This is her quote, emphasis added:

 

 

She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her!

 

Please note the use of the word before. Lanfear was not weakened by the 'Finns. She was burned out when the ter'angreal melted, and then Healed by a woman, which didn't bring her back to full strength. That is the only way we have ever seen to reduce someone's ability in the Power.

[Thor]

She was strong before, but she is weak after, therefore she was weakened during.

 

And also, Siuan when healed by a woman, was reduced to about a third of her original strength.

 

Are you telling me that Cyndane down to a third of her strength is still stronger than Graendal?

 

I don't believe that.

[algspkr]

She was strong before, but she is weak after, therefore she was weakened during.

 

And also, Siuan when healed by a woman, was reduced to about a third of her original strength.

 

Are you telling me that Cyndane down to a third of her strength is still stronger than Graendal?

 

I don't believe that.

I too have a problem with that drop, but it may be that the percentage is based on original strength. A stong person loses a smaller proportion of their strength than a weak person. But that seems counter intuitive.