Prologue POV's

[TootThatHorn]

I agree - if we don't get a Loial at the Stump scene, we've been robbed.

 

What would it be though? A thirty page speech? Anything short of that would be waaay out of character for the Ogier.

 

This is one element where I agree with Brandon's choice entirely, covering by inference in the TofM header was a wise choice. Now when the Ogier rock up at a suitably heroic moment it won't seem completely out of the blue.

 

Mind you, though, if we don't learn anything more about the Book of Translation.... :D

 

Agreed, I wouldn't need a Stump speech, I think it could be exciting to see a pack of wolves charging in the mix, then out of nowhere an army of sung wood quarterstaff wielding Ogier come barreling directly behind them, clashing in to the battle when no one even knew to expect them to show up, Loial at the head of the charge.

[thisguy]

You don't need the entire speech, you need the tale end when Loial or Hammond (Whatever his teacher's name is) say the right thing to get the Ogier to Hooooooooooommmmmmm, Hummmmmmmmmm and kill Saruman.

[Luckers]

You don't need the entire speech, you need the tale end when Loial or Hammond (Whatever his teacher's name is) say the right thing to get the Ogier to Hooooooooooommmmmmm, Hummmmmmmmmm and kill Saruman.

 

It's been done, as your own post makes clear.

 

 

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways (perhaps taking advantage of the realisation that a hundred thousand Trollocs passing out of the Waygate at Shangtai might suggest the Ways are safe). The whole image--sisters set to guard the Ways seeing something larger than human come through, getting ready to blast the heck out of it, then, no, its the Ogier, come to pay their old debt of loyalty to the Servants of the Light. Plus imagine the Seanchan response of Ogier coming to the aid of the Aes Sedai.

[Neophyte]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways (perhaps taking advantage of the realisation that a hundred thousand Trollocs passing out of the Waygate at Shangtai might suggest the Ways are safe).

 

I know this is just picking out a piece, and feel free to push me back in line if this is derailing the topic, but do you really think that Shadowspawn using the Ways means that they are safe for everyone? It smacks much more of an accommodation with the Black Wind by the Shadow, to me. Machin Shin derived in some way from the taint on saidin - it seems likely that Shaidar Haran would have some luck negotiating with it, or maybe even just reining it in by force.

[snooze1128]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways

 

Since reading the Chapter 11 excerpt, I have a really hard time believing that the Seanchan will siege Tar Valon again. In chapter 11, we obviously see Mat approach Ebou Dar, and is in no apparent hurry to reach Tuon until he learns of her apparent danger. I'm pretty sure Mat would be able to convince Tuon to not attack Tar Valon, and if the siege was already in progress, then I'd think Mat would be in far more of a hurry to reach her. So unless the siege occurs prior to Chapter 11 (which isn't indicated by Mat's POV), then I don't think it's going to happen at all.

[TootThatHorn]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways

 

Since reading the Chapter 11 excerpt, I have a really hard time believing that the Seanchan will siege Tar Valon again. In chapter 11, we obviously see Mat approach Ebou Dar, and is in no apparent hurry to reach Tuon until he learns of her apparent danger. I'm pretty sure Mat would be able to convince Tuon to not attack Tar Valon, and if the siege was already in progress, then I'd think Mat would be in far more of a hurry to reach her. So unless the siege occurs prior to Chapter 11 (which isn't indicated by Mat's POV), then I don't think it's going to happen at all.

 

I said the same thing in another thread, so I agree. I could see the threat of one, but i'm pretty sure it will get derailed. Politically and time wise there isn't any room left for it.

[Luckers]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways (perhaps taking advantage of the realisation that a hundred thousand Trollocs passing out of the Waygate at Shangtai might suggest the Ways are safe).

 

I know this is just picking out a piece, and feel free to push me back in line if this is derailing the topic, but do you really think that Shadowspawn using the Ways means that they are safe for everyone? It smacks much more of an accommodation with the Black Wind by the Shadow, to me. Machin Shin derived in some way from the taint on saidin - it seems likely that Shaidar Haran would have some luck negotiating with it, or maybe even just reining it in by force.

 

Eh. It doesn't really negotiate, even with Fain it just fled--and it's not of the Shadow. I could see it running from Shadar Haren, but he didn't take part in the KoD transfer, nor were there Darkfriend channelers present to drive it off as per Liandrin's assertation that she could deal with it, and beyond that I simply don't see it simply obeying commands to start leaving shadowspawn alone. It could be the Dark One is containing it in someway--trapped it. Maybe this is even where Shadar Haren 0.5 disapeared off to.

 

Another possibility is simply that its changed--we see a sequence of changes run through it over a very short period of time following its interaction with Fain--for one, it imprinted his attraction to Rand and began waiting for him at Waygates (this was not, as some assume, at Fain's command. Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him). It tries to force a Gate, and actually shows some signs that it nearly succeeded--all in a relatively short period of time. Since nearly a year has passed--how much might it have continued to change?

[Luckers]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways

 

Since reading the Chapter 11 excerpt, I have a really hard time believing that the Seanchan will siege Tar Valon again. In chapter 11, we obviously see Mat approach Ebou Dar, and is in no apparent hurry to reach Tuon until he learns of her apparent danger. I'm pretty sure Mat would be able to convince Tuon to not attack Tar Valon, and if the siege was already in progress, then I'd think Mat would be in far more of a hurry to reach her. So unless the siege occurs prior to Chapter 11 (which isn't indicated by Mat's POV), then I don't think it's going to happen at all.

 

To be clear, I think Seanchan preparations for the assault on Tar Valon will actually lead to them relieving a Shadowspawn siege (the fulfilment of the woman with the shifting face and the rock solid sword helping Egwene on a cliff face so they can make it together).

[Neophyte]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways (perhaps taking advantage of the realisation that a hundred thousand Trollocs passing out of the Waygate at Shangtai might suggest the Ways are safe).

 

I know this is just picking out a piece, and feel free to push me back in line if this is derailing the topic, but do you really think that Shadowspawn using the Ways means that they are safe for everyone? It smacks much more of an accommodation with the Black Wind by the Shadow, to me. Machin Shin derived in some way from the taint on saidin - it seems likely that Shaidar Haran would have some luck negotiating with it, or maybe even just reining it in by force.

 

Eh. It doesn't really negotiate, even with Fain it just fled--and it's not of the Shadow. I could see it running from Shadar Haren, but he didn't take part in the KoD transfer, nor were there Darkfriend channelers present to drive it off as per Liandrin's assertation that she could deal with it, and beyond that I simply don't see it simply obeying commands to start leaving shadowspawn alone. It could be the Dark One is containing it in someway--trapped it. Maybe this is even where Shadar Haren 0.5 disapeared off to.

 

Another possibility is simply that its changed--we see a sequence of changes run through it over a very short period of time following its interaction with Fain--for one, it imprinted his attraction to Rand and began waiting for him at Waygates (this was not, as some assume, at Fain's command. Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him). It tries to force a Gate, and actually shows some signs that it nearly succeeded--all in a relatively short period of time. Since nearly a year has passed--how much might it have continued to change?

 

All that is true based on what we know of Machin Shin. But I'm just leery of assumptions here, since we haven't actually seen the Black Wind since TSR, much less since the Dark One has become able to touch the world more directly, much less since the cleansing of saidin. A couple of books ago we had no idea that the Eelfinn could simply consume someone's ability to channel. Just because the Shadow seems to have found a way to travel the Ways safely, I wouldn't assume that masses of Ogier, or anyone else, can safely use the Ways.

 

And Machin Shin is derived from the Shadow. It developed, as far as we know, because of the taint on saidin used used to make the Ways. So, while it has been perfectly happy to eat Shadowspawn, and showed no kind of loyalty or allegiance to Darkfriends (though it did recognize at least part of Fain as a "kindred spirit" before fleeing, according to Moiraine), we don't really know how it would react to what is effectively the Dark One's avatar, or to someone wielding the True Power. It might not be considered Shadowspawn, but its origins are definitely tied up with the Shadow.

[thisguy]

For myself I like the idea of the Ogier arriving at Tar Valon during the seige from either the Seanchan or the Shadow via the Ways (perhaps taking advantage of the realisation that a hundred thousand Trollocs passing out of the Waygate at Shangtai might suggest the Ways are safe).

 

I know this is just picking out a piece, and feel free to push me back in line if this is derailing the topic, but do you really think that Shadowspawn using the Ways means that they are safe for everyone? It smacks much more of an accommodation with the Black Wind by the Shadow, to me. Machin Shin derived in some way from the taint on saidin - it seems likely that Shaidar Haran would have some luck negotiating with it, or maybe even just reining it in by force.

 

Eh. It doesn't really negotiate, even with Fain it just fled--and it's not of the Shadow. I could see it running from Shadar Haren, but he didn't take part in the KoD transfer, nor were there Darkfriend channelers present to drive it off as per Liandrin's assertation that she could deal with it, and beyond that I simply don't see it simply obeying commands to start leaving shadowspawn alone. It could be the Dark One is containing it in someway--trapped it. Maybe this is even where Shadar Haren 0.5 disapeared off to.

 

Another possibility is simply that its changed--we see a sequence of changes run through it over a very short period of time following its interaction with Fain--for one, it imprinted his attraction to Rand and began waiting for him at Waygates (this was not, as some assume, at Fain's command. Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him). It tries to force a Gate, and actually shows some signs that it nearly succeeded--all in a relatively short period of time. Since nearly a year has passed--how much might it have continued to change?

 

All that is true based on what we know of Machin Shin. But I'm just leery of assumptions here, since we haven't actually seen the Black Wind since TSR, much less since the Dark One has become able to touch the world more directly, much less since the cleansing of saidin. A couple of books ago we had no idea that the Eelfinn could simply consume someone's ability to channel. Just because the Shadow seems to have found a way to travel the Ways safely, I wouldn't assume that masses of Ogier, or anyone else, can safely use the Ways.

 

And Machin Shin is derived from the Shadow. It developed, as far as we know, because of the taint on saidin used used to make the Ways. So, while it has been perfectly happy to eat Shadowspawn, and showed no kind of loyalty or allegiance to Darkfriends (though it did recognize at least part of Fain as a "kindred spirit" before fleeing, according to Moiraine), we don't really know how it would react to what is effectively the Dark One's avatar, or to someone wielding the True Power. It might not be considered Shadowspawn, but its origins are definitely tied up with the Shadow.

True. We also don't know if the cleansing of Saidin affected it or not. It's a brave new world.

[Suttree]

True. We also don't know if the cleansing of Saidin affected it or not. It's a brave new world.

 

This has been touched a little bit. Interesting to see how it may have changed.

 

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

Robert Jordan

 

 

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

Question

 

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

Robert Jordan

 

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

[thisguy]

Thanks. Then, my advice would be, don't use the ways.

 

I still don't understand why they don't just either kill the leaves by removing them or destroy the gateways completely.

[Neophyte]

True. We also don't know if the cleansing of Saidin affected it or not. It's a brave new world.

 

This has been touched a little bit. Interesting to see how it may have changed.

 

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

Robert Jordan

 

 

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

Question

 

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

Robert Jordan

 

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

Yes, this is one of the quotes that got me wondering about accommodation, especially since the cleansing. This isn't exact, of course, but building on Jordan's "bacteria breed" simile, what if the Dark One promised it more taint-food? "Let my guys through, and I'll serve you up more of that nummy taint you love so much." Or something to that effect. The first massive movement of Trollocs through the Ways followed fairly shortly after the cleansing.

 

No, it was not a servant of the Dark One when it was "born," or when we last saw it in the story. But then again, it had never met the Dark One at that point, or one of his top brass either, so far as we know.

[TheAngryDruid]

A man who loves the hunt begins a new pursuit, red veils appear, and one of the Forsaken stands newly revealed. The forces of the Shadow swell in triumph as the world unravels. By grace and banners fallen, the Last Battle has come.

 

I was curious if I'd guessed anything right way back in August 2011. Turns out I did. Demandred.

 

Other than that, not great prognostication. Did anyone peg Slayer, the Red Veils (Barriga's killers from The Towers of Midnight epilogue), or Demandred?

 

I wanted to check the brief Loial section before commenting. My memory told me that he was about to speak. Indeed, that is as far as the storytelling has taken us. With all of the buildup, I really do think we will get to view Loial on the Stump, and have the opportunity to see his big moment in the Wheel of Time (so far... I also believe that he has a contribution to the Song).

 

The only logical place to stick this is in the prologue, therefore I will stick to my original assertion. This is a part of my Prologue plot contest entry. And I look forward to it more than any other POV that we might see.

 

For that matter, I do believe we will see the following POVs as well:

 

Tam and the Two Rivers, or possibly (just thought of this) Gawyn visiting the Two Rivers to ask Bran for his daughter's hand in marriage.

The Black Tower, this time with Pevara as the POV. We may even see her bond Androl. I hope so.

The Field of Merrilor, with the POV one of the farmers. Almen Bunt? Honestly, I can't guess which one.

Padan Fain, with an army of undead Trollocs behind him. Doing what I have no idea... Maybe headed north to Shayol Ghul.

Demandred, and his reveal. Finally.

I only meant to name six, but I can't escape mentioning this one:

Teslyn reporting to Egwene upon her return to the Tower. Don't forget that the Tower openly has Travelling now and Teslyn could get to Merrilor if Egwene is there.

 

That's my Prologue entry, and I'm sticking to it.

 

Demandred came to my mind as well, but don't count your chickens. Could easily be Moridin (as Taim), Cyndane or Moggy alter ego revealed in a new guise, or even Aginor back from the dead (again).

 

Still, I'd hope there are more POVs than the hints we were given. I'd like any of these, beyond what we already have.

 

1) A BT POV of some kind. Pevara, Androl, Naeff, Logain, Taim.

2) Loial

3) A Caemlyn POV: sisters outside the city, Talmanes, Olver

4) Mo/Thom/Mat

5) Teslyn at the WT

6) Alanna in the borderlands