Egwene should be doing more in the borderlands.

[XXX]

Rand can and has taught Asha'man AOL weaves...there are no one to teach the AS AOL weaves. Knowledge is everything..and AS fall far behind the Asha'man in this.

[Suttree]

Rand can and has taught Asha'man AOL weaves...there are no one to teach the AS AOL weaves. Knowledge is everything..and AS fall far behind the Asha'man in this.

 

Have we actually seen him teaching or did a few of them just copy those deathgates and blossoms of fire? weaves in KoD? Either way knowing a few extra battle weaves is a far cry from saying they equal AOL AS.

[Entreri]

4) Asha'man have knowledge of the capabilities of female channelers and have fought them (e.g. bonded AS) and damane have no clue.

 

Didn't Damane fight Asha'man in tPoD? It has been commented on how good the Seanchan are at adapting new tactics.

 

5) Men can at least tell if women are channeling if close enough, women are never forewarned (perfect for surprise attacks, think of a small team of Asha'man taking out damane behind the lines...Illusion to infiltrate...even Semirhage was able to easily decimate the Royal family).

 

Not always true, women can now hide channeling. Recall Rand in KoD being surprised that Cads and Nyn already held the source.

 

Asha'man = AS of AoL, not constrained by the 3 Oaths and they know defensive weaves.

 

How does that follow? Because the Asha'man aren't constrained by oaths and are good fighters they equal AOL AS? That is a fairly large stretch.

 

Seanchan generals are very good at adapting to tactics. However, like I said, the damane have many limits (they hardly know any defensive Weaves if any, Alivia certainly did not appear to know any defensive Weaves and she is probably not only the oldest but strongest damane, men are stronger in the Power, damane cannot link to overcome this strength advantage, men are typically stronger in Fire and Earth, also damane would have no angreal, sa'angreal at their disposal).

 

Let's not forget the most important part of any battle, the mental edge. The Asha'man are trained like no other, only the strongest survive. The damane are housed like cattle...easy target for a surprise attack. There is also a small a lag factor involved in being linked.

 

Like I said, the damane are greatly disadvantaged in facing Asha'man. Their only advantage is that the Asha'man do not have long years of training.

 

tPoD:

From what little we seen of the battle, the Asha'man came out ahead, even capturing the likes of Alivia. Alivia could be as strong as Lanfear. The Asha'man were very likely outnumbered as well.

 

Keep in mind that the average Asha'man at best had 1 year of training. The average damane, many decades. The tPoD battle, Dumai's Wells, capturing the female AS, a testament to their capabilities.

 

 

 

Cad and Nyaneve: Assuming that is the case, certainly it is very very unlikely Seanchan damane know how to hide their abilities, be it inverting Weaves or hiding their abilities from men. Semirhage toyed with the Seanchan, damane and all.

 

 

AoL:

 

Not a stretch at all, in skill level of course they need many more centuries, but they are not constrained by the fool oaths and men and women are working together (bonded AS).

[Suttree]

Seanchan generals are very good at adapting to tactics. However, like I said, the damane have many limits (they hardly know any defensive Weaves if any, Alivia certainly did not appear to know any defensive Weaves and she is probably not only the oldest but strongest damane, men are stronger in the Power, damane cannot link to overcome this strength advantage, men are typically stronger in Fire and Earth, also damane would have no angreal, sa'angreal at their disposal).

 

I get your point, just think it isn't that fair to say damane have no clue. The Seanchan Generals will have a much better plan of action the next time Damane face Asha'man.

 

As for AoL it is a huge stretch. Power levels were higher on average, skill level is way behind and knowledge is so far apart as to not even be comparable.

 

BWB

the few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous.

[Hadilmir]

I don't think so--you were saying Aes Sedai only ever throw fireballs and fight in their little area, and that as such they are not as effective as the damane and the Asha'men--or at least that is my understanding. I was making the point in return that for Kiruna's agenda, carving a path for herself through to Rand was precisely what she needed to be doing. Wasting strength killing loads of Aiel was pointless, and a violation of the Oath--all she needed to do was carve a path, and that was what she was doing.

 

If you need to see Aes Sedai doing the same sort of wide-scale destruction, look to Algarin's manor in KoD. There the Aes Sedai are unbound by the Oath, and are just as deadly as the Asha'men, before Rand's new weaves came into it. Both Kiruna and the three with Mat were restrained, and as such limited to responding to a specific threat to their lives--fireballs. Anything more destructive might have struck at those that were not a threat.

I get where you're coming from now, and I do think you are correct about their situation-specific effectiveness, but I still disagree with your assessment of the attack on Algarin's manor. A single Blossom of Fire has a killing radius of about 250 feet, a fireball maybe 10 feet. The fact that the Aes Sedai matched the Asha'man before the new weaves is irrelevant to my point of them being unsuited to an open field of battle. If a fireball can kill 15 trollocs, then 3,333 would be needed to kill 50,000 trollocs. That's about 60 large fireballs per Aes Sedai (given the 50 Aes Sedai in an army of 50,000 against an army of 100,000 example). Most Aes Sedai are weak in Fire and I do doubt the average Aes Sedai could weave the necessary 60 fireballs to simply even the battle. They are a tactical tool, not a strategic one. Holding a breach they can do wonderfully. Linking to form huge gateways, again, well within their power. However, basing your army's strength off of them is likely to get a lot of men killed.

 

I'd much rather see them used as Ituralde used the Asha'man under him; as tactical weapons.

[Entreri]

Seanchan generals are very good at adapting to tactics. However, like I said, the damane have many limits (they hardly know any defensive Weaves if any, Alivia certainly did not appear to know any defensive Weaves and she is probably not only the oldest but strongest damane, men are stronger in the Power, damane cannot link to overcome this strength advantage, men are typically stronger in Fire and Earth, also damane would have no angreal, sa'angreal at their disposal).

 

I get your point, just think it isn't that fair to say damane have no clue. The Seanchan Generals will have a much better plan of action the next time Damane face Asha'man.

 

As for AoL it is a huge stretch. Power levels were higher on average, skill level is way behind and

knowledge is so far apart as to not even be comparable.

 

BWB

the few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous.

 

Damane have no clue, as I clearly pointed out why.

 

 

I doubt the average strength is greater in AoL, due to them finding many many more channelers, far far greater of whom would be weaker = brings down the average. Possibly the median or in the interquartile range could be higher in AoL.

 

 

LTT was the greatest AS in AoL. Rand has been teaching Asha'man a few weaves (balefire to Narishma, how to disguise oneself to Naeff, Taim Travelling), battles in KoD, Maradon, the Asha'man saw what he did and should be able to copy them, there could be other weaves he taught the Asha'man 'off-camera'.

[Suttree]

Seanchan generals are very good at adapting to tactics. However, like I said, the damane have many limits (they hardly know any defensive Weaves if any, Alivia certainly did not appear to know any defensive Weaves and she is probably not only the oldest but strongest damane, men are stronger in the Power, damane cannot link to overcome this strength advantage, men are typically stronger in Fire and Earth, also damane would have no angreal, sa'angreal at their disposal).

 

I get your point, just think it isn't that fair to say damane have no clue. The Seanchan Generals will have a much better plan of action the next time Damane face Asha'man.

 

As for AoL it is a huge stretch. Power levels were higher on average, skill level is way behind and

knowledge is so far apart as to not even be comparable.

 

BWB

the few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous.

 

Damane have no clue, as I clearly pointed out why.

 

 

I doubt the average strength is greater in AoL, due to them finding many many more channelers, far far greater of whom would be weaker = brings down the average. Possibly the median or in the interquartile range could be higher in AoL.

 

 

LTT was the greatest AS in AoL. Rand has been teaching Asha'man a few weaves (balefire to Narishma, how to disguise oneself to Naeff, Taim Travelling), battles in KoD, Maradon, the Asha'man saw what he did and should be able to copy them, there could be other weaves he taught the Asha'man 'off-camera'.

 

Must have missed you "clearly" showing Damane have no clue. If you are taking about them being limited with defensive weaves and being unable to link, I'm not quit sure how that would count as such.

 

As for AoL pointing out that Rand has taught a few weaves to individual Asha'man that falls way short of them being equal to AoL AS. You have done nothing to show that they are anywhere close from a skill or knowledge perspective. As for them copying what Rand did at Maradon weren't you the poster saying he was basically like a God and channeling some new light power now? Not to mention how many weaves he split off which Naeff commented on. Asha'man would not know where to begin in copying that.

[Entreri]

Seanchan generals are very good at adapting to tactics. However, like I said, the damane have many limits (they hardly know any defensive Weaves if any, Alivia certainly did not appear to know any defensive Weaves and she is probably not only the oldest but strongest damane, men are stronger in the Power, damane cannot link to overcome this strength advantage, men are typically stronger in Fire and Earth, also damane would have no angreal, sa'angreal at their disposal).

 

I get your point, just think it isn't that fair to say damane have no clue. The Seanchan Generals will have a much better plan of action the next time Damane face Asha'man.

 

As for AoL it is a huge stretch. Power levels were higher on average, skill level is way behind and

knowledge is so far apart as to not even be comparable.

 

BWB

the few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous.

 

Damane have no clue, as I clearly pointed out why.

 

 

I doubt the average strength is greater in AoL, due to them finding many many more channelers, far far greater of whom would be weaker = brings down the average. Possibly the median or in the interquartile range could be higher in AoL.

 

 

LTT was the greatest AS in AoL. Rand has been teaching Asha'man a few weaves (balefire to Narishma, how to disguise oneself to Naeff, Taim Travelling), battles in KoD, Maradon, the Asha'man saw what he did and should be able to copy them, there could be other weaves he taught the Asha'man 'off-camera'.

 

Must have missed you "clearly" showing Damane have no clue. If you are taking about them being limited with defensive weaves and being unable to link, I'm not quit sure how that would count as such.

 

As for AoL pointing out that Rand has taught a few weaves to individual Asha'man that falls way short of them being equal to AoL AS. You have done nothing to show that they are anywhere close from a skill or knowledge perspective. As for them copying what Rand did at Maradon weren't you the poster saying he was basically like a God and channeling some new light power now? Not to mention how many weaves he split off which Naeff commented on. Asha'man would not know where to begin in copying that.

 

Read my post again. Briefly, you should be able to see that if someone like Alivia (with 400 years of being damane) is thus very limited...

 

Currently yes, however, given time, the Asha'man will become like the AS of AoL. Damane have no chance of that of course. The female AS are limited by their 3 oaths.

 

Good point, Maradon would be the exception.

[Mats Spare Hat]

So what would you all say concerning Aes Sedai, male or female, of the present age approaching Age of Legend-ness(so to speak?)...Taking into account somebody like Moiraine, who weaves balefire, which given what we know at that point had been forbidden since before the Breaking? - She does it before even the first Asha'man comes into play.

 

Seems to be that would make Moiraine, with her oaths intact too, or even Nynaeve closer to an AoL AS, in terms of being able to do that which was possible way back when, than a given example outside of ye of transcendent memory(Rand).

 

Or, in little kids terms....*Moiraine races across line "First!"

[csarmi]

Read my post again. Briefly, you should be able to see that if someone like Alivia (with 400 years of being damane) is thus very limited...

 

Currently yes, however, given time, the Asha'man will become like the AS of AoL. Damane have no chance of that of course. The female AS are limited by their 3 oaths.

 

Alivia says that asha'man are good weapons, but she is better. I suppose she knows what she's talking about.

 

Both AS and asha'man (and especially those working together) have a huge edge vs the Seanchan.

 

AS can hide channeling ability, hide their weaves, they can links, they have angreal and sa'angreal. They also have warders.

 

The Seanchan, however, have a big advantage: they have a good understanding on battle tactics, they adapt and they WILL experience with unusual methods of fighting. They also have a lot of experience fighting channelers. If someone can use travelling to its full capacity in battle, they can.

 

Imagine sul'dam da'mane pairs leaping about the battlefield with sneak attacks and waves used in combination with gateways that others won't expect.

[Mats Spare Hat]

See I kind of think Sul'dam/Damane have a steep learning curve, as far as being able to learn weaves. Let's say they have all the weaves they have when they landed in Randland. Their access to weaves could likely have to do with a standard skill set passed down through the ages, instead of experimenting, or being able to experiment with the OP - something you could believe in Seanchan is a big no-no. So maybe you could assume each damane can blow up earth, hurl fire...that sort of thing, a standard set of weaves if you will.

 

As far as being able to develop a greater skill set, learning new weaves, abilities with the OP - the learning curve for a damane is pretty steep. I mean in the year or two the Seanchan have been in Randland they've clapped a'dam(s) around the necks of Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders, and any other woman they've come across that they can get their hands on that can channel a spark.

 

For instance, the scene when we see Elaida all leashed up - Or even with all the info Nynaeve & Elayne brained out of Moggy, in Salidar...AoL knowledge & skills learned by Aes Sedai before Rand even came up with those shiny little coat pins.

 

"Show me Travelling" "nnnneevvaahh!" *twitches eyebrow "Otayyyy!" *demonstrates Travelling "Now show my posse how to do that too" "uh nah!" *pats damane on head.

 

You can't tell me the Seanchan wouldn't glean every bit of know-how out of every single newly leashed Damane this side of the ocean has in their grey goop, just like Nyn et al. were doing with Moggy.

 

---

 

There's even more than one occassion where folks figure out how to perform legendary feats with the OP, regardless of being constrained by oaths, or not, without having to be taught specifically by someone from the AoL. Nyn heals stilling/severing, Moiraine with the balefire, Egwene figuring out how to Travel... IRL mankind did figure out how to put a man on the moon without having somebody tell him how, yeah?

 

I mean outside of how to throw the proverbial bigger fireball, what have the asha'man learned that the aes sedai, and now by proxy damane, haven't learned as well. Everybody knows how to make things go boom, everybody can Travel, disguise themselves, heal to greater degrees, etc.

[Entreri]

Read my post again. Briefly, you should be able to see that if someone like Alivia (with 400 years of being damane) is thus very limited...

 

Currently yes, however, given time, the Asha'man will become like the AS of AoL. Damane have no chance of that of course. The female AS are limited by their 3 oaths.

 

Alivia says that asha'man are good weapons, but she is better. I suppose she knows what she's talking about.

 

Both AS and asha'man (and especially those working together) have a huge edge vs the Seanchan.

 

AS can hide channeling ability, hide their weaves, they can links, they have angreal and sa'angreal. They also have warders.

 

The Seanchan, however, have a big advantage: they have a good understanding on battle tactics, they adapt and they WILL experience with unusual methods of fighting. They also have a lot of experience fighting channelers. If someone can use travelling to its full capacity in battle, they can.

 

Imagine sul'dam da'mane pairs leaping about the battlefield with sneak attacks and waves used in combination with gateways that others won't expect.

 

However, no damane remotely comes close to Alivia. Her insane OP strength, much stronger than Nynaeve, 400 year old weapon.

 

Alivia might be the best weapon in this Age (after Maradon, that is likely LTT for all Ages), yes, but as you saw, she only managed to stalemate Lanfear, even though she was much much stronger in the OP due to the angreal. Lanfear knew how to defend herself. Lanfear unlikley to be older than Alivia.

 

Yes, AS+Asha'man linked >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damane.

 

 

AS of the current age are limited, e.g. they cannot be the first attacker and can't use guerrilla warfare. Huge disadvantage in battle, meanwhile, the Seanchan will use any tactics available to them.

 

Either the Asha'man or damane can employ guerrilla tactics, however the Asha'man would be more effective against them than vice versa. Against regular units, sure, either would be as effective.

 

Seanchan forces had major defeats in Randland. Iturlade completely tooled them, and I have little doubt given similar numbers+Asha'man he would destroy the entire Seanchan forces. With DR backing him up, victory would be certain. With LTT's knowlege + Callandor, DR can likely annihilate all the Seanchan forces by himself (with 2 females linked to him :) Keep in mind that LTT was also one of the great generals in AoL.

[Suttree]

See I kind of think Sul'dam/Damane have a steep learning curve, as far as being able to learn weaves. Let's say they have all the weaves they have when they landed in Randland. Their access to weaves could likely have to do with a standard skill set passed down through the ages, instead of experimenting, or being able to experiment with the OP - something you could believe in Seanchan is a big no-no. So maybe you could assume each damane can blow up earth, hurl fire...that sort of thing, a standard set of weaves if you will.

 

Just to comment, Alivia may be an exception but it is said she picks up a weave upon seeing it for the first time...

[Mats Spare Hat]

See I kind of think Sul'dam/Damane have a steep learning curve, as far as being able to learn weaves. Let's say they have all the weaves they have when they landed in Randland. Their access to weaves could likely have to do with a standard skill set passed down through the ages, instead of experimenting, or being able to experiment with the OP - something you could believe in Seanchan is a big no-no. So maybe you could assume each damane can blow up earth, hurl fire...that sort of thing, a standard set of weaves if you will.

 

Just to comment, Alivia may be an exception but it is said she picks up a weave upon seeing it for the first time...

 

 

Word, I think in TGH(?) in one of the WT scenes, we see Nyn note how Egwene only needs to be shown how to do something once, and she's got it down, too.

[Charlz Guybon]

See I kind of think Sul'dam/Damane have a steep learning curve, as far as being able to learn weaves. Let's say they have all the weaves they have when they landed in Randland. Their access to weaves could likely have to do with a standard skill set passed down through the ages, instead of experimenting, or being able to experiment with the OP - something you could believe in Seanchan is a big no-no. So maybe you could assume each damane can blow up earth, hurl fire...that sort of thing, a standard set of weaves if you will.

 

Just to comment, Alivia may be an exception but it is said she picks up a weave upon seeing it for the first time...

 

 

Word, I think in TGH(?) in one of the WT scenes, we see Nyn note how Egwene only needs to be shown how to do something once, and she's got it down, too.

Nynaeve can do it too. I think the stronger you are the more detail you can pick up when looking at weaves, so you're more likely to learn it right away. After all the stronger you are the more you can split your flows and channel in fine detail.

[sleepinghour]

Just to comment, Alivia may be an exception but it is said she picks up a weave upon seeing it for the first time...

 

 

Word, I think in TGH(?) in one of the WT scenes, we see Nyn note how Egwene only needs to be shown how to do something once, and she's got it down, too.

This has never been said about Egwene (or Alivia, for that matter). Egwene was the one saying that about Nynaeve.

 

Egwene remembered the Amyrlin’s trick, too, but she did not think she could duplicate it. Nynaeve only had to see a thing done once to know how to do it herself. When she could manage to channel at all, of course.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Touche, I think?

 

Must have gotten it all mixed up between that occasion or another & a scene with Avienda remarking about the differences between herself & Egwene.

 

Gooo figure. Didn't Egwene figure out how to make Cuendillar all by herself, without any AoL influence as well?

[Suttree]

Just to comment, Alivia may be an exception but it is said she picks up a weave upon seeing it for the first time...

 

 

Word, I think in TGH(?) in one of the WT scenes, we see Nyn note how Egwene only needs to be shown how to do something once, and she's got it down, too.

This has never been said about Egwene (or Alivia, for that matter). Egwene was the one saying that about Nynaeve.

 

Egwene remembered the Amyrlin’s trick, too, but she did not think she could duplicate it. Nynaeve only had to see a thing done once to know how to do it herself. When she could manage to channel at all, of course.

 

Cadsuane comments on it when Alivia does the fly whisking trick in KoD, can't remember if it is said straight out but it's certainly implied in how quick she is to learn.

[Ala Rubra]

Touche, I think?

 

Must have gotten it all mixed up between that occasion or another & a scene with Avienda remarking about the differences between herself & Egwene.

 

Gooo figure. Didn't Egwene figure out how to make Cuendillar all by herself, without any AoL influence as well?

 

Somewhat, but Moghedien apparently told her the basic idea behind it. She needed help with Traveling as well. The gateway to Tel'aran'hoid was probably all hers, though.

[sleepinghour]

Didn't Egwene figure out how to make Cuendillar all by herself, without any AoL influence as well?

Not quite—she got some help from Moghedien and then puzzled out the rest.

 

For once, [Egwene] felt no shame at being praised for one of her supposed discoveries. Unlike nearly everything else except Traveling, this one actually was hers, though Moghedien had pointed the way before she escaped. The woman did not know how to actually make anything—at least, she had not revealed any such knowledge however hard Egwene had pressed her, and she had pressed very hard—but Moghedien had a wide streak of greed, and even in the Age of Legends, cuendillar had been a prized luxury. She had known enough of how it was made for Egwene to puzzle out the rest.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Oh right on!

 

See there we go, Aes Sedai getting all AoL-y with hints & info derived from somebody of the AoL.

 

I guess my point with this was when somebody had brought up something about Asha'man becoming more like AoL Aes Sedai, because Rand had taught them to throw, as I said, the proverbial bigger fireball, and that Aes Sedai would never reach that level because they're oathbound - It's ignoring all the advances & knowledge we see Aes Sedai acquire and/or develop as a result of having someone from the AoL at their disposal.

 

And, all that's before we see a single asha'man being 'taught' by Rand how to pull off a blossom of fire, a deathgate... We even see Rand tell Taim directly in LoC that he won't teach him Balefire, yet we know at least Moiraine knows how, Nyn knows, et al.

 

Asha'men: Fireballs, lightening, foggy domes, exploding earth, traveling, tricks with light, healing...

Aes Sedai: Fireballs, lightening, exploding earth, traveling, tricks with light, cuendillar, balefire, weather manipulation, healing, compulsion...

 

They're all are capable of achieving the same results. It's just kind of lame to conclude the A'Men are more AoLey, or will be more AoLey in their abilities, because the AS are bound by oaths, when all the contrary evidence is right there on the page.

 

Sort of like, well have you ever seen an Aes Sedai make a deathgate, or weave blossoms of fire? Well, no. Have you ever seen an Asha'man wield Balefire, or create cuendillar? Well, no.

 

On one hand you've got a bunch of fellas who've got a reborn AoL-er putting things out there in front of dudes' faces for them to pick up. On the other hand you've got a bunch of ladies shown to be dragging the tiniest bits and pieces out of somebody with a leash around their neck, and by virtue of their own ability to figure things out, arrive at positive outcomes.

 

It'll be swell to see how everything shakes out whence the next volume his the shelf.

[AshaShan]

Re: Who knows more AOL weaves. - I don't think it really matters. The culture, social beliefs, moral values, ethical principals etc of the AOL were what made the Aes Sedai of that time what they were, not simply having the ability to channel. IMO, all those things are far more important than who knows how to blow people up most efficiently. The Asha'man are every bit the unenlightened savages the Aes Sedai of Tar Valon are. Giving them advanced one power knowledge doesn't change that, doesn't make one better than the other, no more than giving a gatling gun to a Mongol warrior in the Golden Horde would make him a better person.

[Entreri]

Rediscovering things is impressive, but not remotely close to inventing new things. Nynaeve is the only one who has done this. Waiting for the woman to bring back the dead in AMOL.

[Suttree]

Re: Who knows more AOL weaves. - I don't think it really matters. The culture, social beliefs, moral values, ethical principals etc of the AOL were what made the Aes Sedai of that time what they were, not simply having the ability to channel. IMO, all those things are far more important than who knows how to blow people up most efficiently. The Asha'man are every bit the unenlightened savages the Aes Sedai of Tar Valon are. Giving them advanced one power knowledge doesn't change that, doesn't make one better than the other, no more than giving a gatling gun to a Mongol warrior in the Golden Horde would make him a better person.

 

Great call Asha, "battle" weaves are such a small percentage of the AOL AS overall worth to society. To say the Ashaman are equal because Rand has taught a few weaves to a couple individuals is ridiculous.

[AshaShan]

*Damn* I posted in the wrong thread. Ignore.