Are Amirlyn and Empress equal?

[Suttree]

Are they now? They might be a center of trade (though that is probably not as prominent as you might imagine) yet they control almost no land, so their agricultural production would be reduced, as would their mining opportunities etc etc etc. The only thing they have going for them are tithes paid to them by the borderlanders and the trade moving along that river (which there are several ways around the tower - such as off-loading goods upstream/downstream then moving them around the island by wagon and loading again to avoid duties) not only that, but in reality, that river would probably not be used by many groups, except for trade along the illian <> andor <> central borderland corridor and the only goods really passing through TV would be seasonal (mainly agricultural) goods that would otherwise spoil.

 

I think you are heavily undervaluing the amount of river trade and the north/south connection. All you really need to do is read the descriptions in the books and look at a map. It's the most vital trade and transport connection between the Borderlands and the nations in the south (Illian, Andor, Cairhien, and Tear) Multiple roads meet at the city and the River Erinin links the city to Tear, along with other ports like Aringill. Taxes on all that trade alone must be enormous and it is mentioned time and again that it is the center of commerce and the wealthiest city Randland.

[Stitch]

That it is a wealthy city I dont doubt, but compared to a group of countries even if those countries consist of one major city and a double handful of towns and villages? No way... Tar Valon relies on others for its wealth, whether through tithe or trade, it is not of itself generating wealth, instead it could at best be seen as a gateway for wealth and while I agree the north south corridor would be lucrative for agricultural products - that would be the major source of duties, because other types of goods (those that dont spoil) can easily be transported around it without having to deal with the WT tax collectors; without having their own production its a simple fact that they are going to have a smaller economy - more lucrative (proportional to its size than other 'nations' but it will be smaller because it simply does not have a solid base) though less stable (since they would rely almost solely on tithes and trades, the later changing depending on the other nations and thus NOT within TV control)

[Suttree]

That it is a wealthy city I dont doubt, but compared to a group of countries even if those countries consist of one major city and a double handful of towns and villages? No way... Tar Valon relies on others for its wealth, whether through tithe or trade, it is not of itself generating wealth, instead it could at best be seen as a gateway for wealth and while I agree the north south corridor would be lucrative for agricultural products - that would be the major source of duties, because other types of goods (those that dont spoil) can easily be transported around it without having to deal with the WT tax collectors; without having their own production its a simple fact that they are going to have a smaller economy - more lucrative (proportional to its size than other 'nations' but it will be smaller because it simply does not have a solid base) though less stable (since they would rely almost solely on tithes and trades, the later changing depending on the other nations and thus NOT within TV control)

 

You make some good points but I was basically looking at it as Tar Valon v Ebou Dar and whatever wealth Amador has. Tarabon is in open revolt with a guerilla war being fought so I doubt it can be counted on for much.

[Puny]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

 

Advisors... yeah. Like any other nation has, in secret or openly. They should have soldiers, Sisters that do battle, not advise them. I still hold to my claim that they havent helped the Borderlanders. You would think that the very nations that are on the edge of the Dark One touching them would want soliders, or more Sisters then your generic advisor.

 

Yeah you are right. I've brought it up a few times that I wish someone would as BS if the Bordrland advisors duties differ from those in other countries? Do they make up part of troop formations, are Greens sometimes part of patrols etc...? You would think the role of an advisor in Arafel would be very different from that in Andor. We do know Paitar's sister is Kiruna. She is one of the Greens that has done very well in fighting(Dumai's Wells), sure she has spent some time up there helping the throne out in the field.

 

Yes I hope so too. (reason this bugged me is because the Blight is active, they can actually see how its lessening or increasing so they have a reason to fight up there... but if we compare to aSoIaF I can understand why no one cares about the Wall, because they haven´t seen monsters, or huge armies attacking for hundreds of years) The roles of the advisor should be different for Sisters in different countries. Kiruna did very well in the fighting, maybe she had some training in blasting trollocs up north.

 

Aside from helping the borderlands, you would think that the Greens would want to be up near the Blight in order to practice and hone their skills.

 

While I admire your obvious personal sense of self-worth. In the real world, there are reasons why a lot of jobs monitor what employees are actually doing on their computers, why some people have to log their activities in 10,15,30 minute or 1 hour blocks, and why some have people literally looking over their shoulder. While I wish every Aes Sedai were as dedicated as Moir and Verin, I highly doubt that is the case. And given the amount of freedom they have to manage themselves, are you really surprised?

 

I think this is exactly why the Aes Sedai of the AoL all had separate careers apart from being Aes Sedai. Because if being Aes Sedai is your only "job" then there will be some trudge and toil to it, and if no one can really force an Aes Sedai to do it, they may start to slack more and more until all they do is sit around drinking tea.

 

This doesn't mean Aes Sedai are lazy people, or incompetent, just that the way the institution is currently set up has developed this culture. A few policy changes could fix it. Give each Ajah things they MUST be doing, like quotas of some sort. Give them a reason to stay sharp. Like the military, if there's nothing to do then do a mock battle or mock negotiation to stay sharp. OP tournaments anyone?

 

Edit: I guess it'd be more like an OP rodeo, since they'd be showcasing various skills for various tasks. Air weave hog tie and such ;)

 

I dk how it is in your country... but in Sweden I have never heard of employers monitoring their employees so check if they are actually doing their job. Certain sites are ofc blocked (porn, crime and other things... although some bann other sites, wrong as it is to me I think they have a right to do it) I want to think that most people want to do right, and honor themselves. If they don´t and you find that out give them another chance or two. If that doesn´t work then find them something else to do... like tending crop somewhere far off near the Spine of the World or they could be secretaries to other AS =P.

 

I dk if that was the reason that AS had other jobs as well.. I more saw the AS as being an honoring title, really servants for all the people. The trudge and toil of it... I understand what you mean but really, I can think of more jobs where there is trudge and toil then being an AS. I do however agree with you that the reason some of them behave in that way is because of how the instution is set up, culture enforced.

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

just a note on trading and avoiding tar valon.

 

the pure SPEED of sending down goods down a river rather than overland is ENORMOUS. even without doing into deeper economic principles/theories, its pretty obvious why port cities are so, so very important to control - it has very little to do with the city itself; it has everything to do with what the city is restricting access to.

[Stitch]

But only for time sensitive goods, those that will have their value greatly diminished by taking the longer route - such as agriculture.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Tar Valon is undoubedly very wealthy, but it would not be able to withstand a war with a large nation-state. It could be cut off from trade and supplies fairly easily - there are examples such as Artur Hawkwing's siege or Egwene's own plan.

 

If the enemy was able to build his own fleet or somehow block the river in addition to land, the city would be doomed.

 

Also in the history of our world, no city-state was able to win a full scale war with a strong nation-state. There were some very rich and powerful city-states (e.g. Venice, Genoa, not to mention Greek city -states or our contemporary Singapore), but none of them was able to control large territory for long. Such states thrive in times of peace, when trade flows freely. They wither in times of strife and war, when their dependence on outside supplies is exposed as a decisive weakness.

[Kahsm]

I dk how it is in your country... but in Sweden I have never heard of employers monitoring their employees so check if they are actually doing their job. Certain sites are ofc blocked (porn, crime and other things... although some bann other sites, wrong as it is to me I think they have a right to do it) I want to think that most people want to do right, and honor themselves. If they don´t and you find that out give them another chance or two. If that doesn´t work then find them something else to do... like tending crop somewhere far off near the Spine of the World or they could be secretaries to other AS =P.

 

I dk if that was the reason that AS had other jobs as well.. I more saw the AS as being an honoring title, really servants for all the people. The trudge and toil of it... I understand what you mean but really, I can think of more jobs where there is trudge and toil then being an AS. I do however agree with you that the reason some of them behave in that way is because of how the instution is set up, culture enforced.

 

I should move to sweden then. Here people go on strike if you try to take away bankable sick days.

 

Also, I didn't mean to suggest discipline is the reason for the other professions, just that AoL Aes Sedai were likely less dysfunctional because they had other professions to keep them busy. There would be other economic pressures to keep them from lounging around all day. But in the WT as it stands, people donate money, Aes Sedai get an allowance, and not much is asked of them. I hardly see that fostering the best work ethic, other than for a few who are truly dedicated to their craft. But even browns who have particular topics of interest actively avoid other topics. Add to that the idea that they aren't very social; they won't even compare notes. Who knows what discoveries could be found if they mixed things up more? I just suggest things like that need to change in the WT if they're going to rebuild.

[Puny]

I dk how it is in your country... but in Sweden I have never heard of employers monitoring their employees so check if they are actually doing their job. Certain sites are ofc blocked (porn, crime and other things... although some bann other sites, wrong as it is to me I think they have a right to do it) I want to think that most people want to do right, and honor themselves. If they don´t and you find that out give them another chance or two. If that doesn´t work then find them something else to do... like tending crop somewhere far off near the Spine of the World or they could be secretaries to other AS =P.

 

I dk if that was the reason that AS had other jobs as well.. I more saw the AS as being an honoring title, really servants for all the people. The trudge and toil of it... I understand what you mean but really, I can think of more jobs where there is trudge and toil then being an AS. I do however agree with you that the reason some of them behave in that way is because of how the instution is set up, culture enforced.

 

I should move to sweden then. Here people go on strike if you try to take away bankable sick days.

 

Also, I didn't mean to suggest discipline is the reason for the other professions, just that AoL Aes Sedai were likely less dysfunctional because they had other professions to keep them busy. There would be other economic pressures to keep them from lounging around all day. But in the WT as it stands, people donate money, Aes Sedai get an allowance, and not much is asked of them. I hardly see that fostering the best work ethic, other than for a few who are truly dedicated to their craft. But even browns who have particular topics of interest actively avoid other topics. Add to that the idea that they aren't very social; they won't even compare notes. Who knows what discoveries could be found if they mixed things up more? I just suggest things like that need to change in the WT if they're going to rebuild.

 

My bad if I misinterpreted you. So you mean because they had other professions which occupied their time the time they actually put in as AS was more... efficient? The reason I think that most AS have bad workethics is because mostly they keep to their own Ajah, and even within their own Ajah they are alone studying this and that, secluding themselves from the world, and isolation themselves in studies. And I do think that is the case for every Ajah just not the Brown. I do hope that one change that happens, a change that needs to happen is the loosening of the strict Ajah hierarchy, then a Brown could watch what a Yellow was doing, learn a certain weave and hey, maybe she could incorporate that weave into something that the she as a Brown would benefit her field of study. Stop being so fracking possessive about knowledge..

But I guess possessivness about knowledge is the only thing that makes them special as channelers, that´s why everyone keeps their secrets.