Demandred

[Leyrann]

How do you spell it?

[FarShainMael]

We have a Duchy of Lancaster, and a Duchy of Cornwall, and neither of them is weird..

 

..

[Terez]

How do you spell it?

Gert-Jan. I know how to pronounce it. I just can't.

[Majsju]

There's nothing to say that the job in Murandy ties him down much. Brilliant tacticians know how to delegate.

 

If your position is secure, delegating is all fine and dandy. But when you are trying to unite a nation, especially one as fractured as Murandy, you really need to be there in person.

Granted, I take that from how the real world works, and WOT is after all fiction. But RJ did put quite an effort to keep things realistic where possible.

 

Gert-Jan. I know how to pronounce it. I just can't.

 

Properly pronounced, it gets a very not-so-flattering meaning in Swedish

[Terez]

There's nothing to say that the job in Murandy ties him down much. Brilliant tacticians know how to delegate.

 

If your position is secure, delegating is all fine and dandy. But when you are trying to unite a nation, especially one as fractured as Murandy, you really need to be there in person.

It's not exactly clear when he showed up in Murandy, but I'm betting it's not until after LOC. He was there enough to rally the Murandians against the Band, and after that, he likely focused them on Andor, which requires not much work on his part at all, especially with the recent border change. Plus, he's been more or less out of the Black Tower since Moridin returned - it seems Taim answers directly to Moridin now. That doesn't mean that it's not still Demandred's plan. They've been building the wall since TPOD, and the Black Tower was impressive before Moridin returned. I'm guessing Moridin had a dreamspike and Demandred incorporated it into the plans when Moridin returned. That's when they started building the wall, which even Logain noted made not the least bit of sense. A wall is nothing for an army of channelers, and only an army of channelers would dare attack the Black Tower. So, we've got the Legion of the Dragon, almost certainly incorporated into Demandred's plan, and the 10,000 mercenaries. How much work do you think this actually requires? I doubt he set the mercenaries up. They came for the reasons Elayne said they came. But Elayne doesn't have the gold to buy them, and Demandred does. Other than that, all he has to do is order around some Darkfriends - something Rahvin always found time for - and balefire some things (which he probably does as seldom as he can get away with). And you can bet he's constantly thinking about how to win the war, and that every little advantage that comes his way will be incorporated into the plans. Like Talmanes.

[Leyrann]

How do you spell it?

Gert-Jan. I know how to pronounce it. I just can't.

 

I understand. The "g" is in Dutch very difficult. Much more difficult than in most languages.

[Entreri]

What would be hilarious is if that sucker put time and effort into a very elborate plan(s) only to get offed by some unknown Dedicated or Solider.

 

:)

[Terez]

Or by Mat. :)

[Majsju]

There's nothing to say that the job in Murandy ties him down much. Brilliant tacticians know how to delegate.

 

If your position is secure, delegating is all fine and dandy. But when you are trying to unite a nation, especially one as fractured as Murandy, you really need to be there in person.

It's not exactly clear when he showed up in Murandy, but I'm betting it's not until after LOC. He was there enough to rally the Murandians against the Band, and after that, he likely focused them on Andor, which requires not much work on his part at all, especially with the recent border change. Plus, he's been more or less out of the Black Tower since Moridin returned - it seems Taim answers directly to Moridin now. That doesn't mean that it's not still Demandred's plan. They've been building the wall since TPOD, and the Black Tower was impressive before Moridin returned. I'm guessing Moridin had a dreamspike and Demandred incorporated it into the plans when Moridin returned. That's when they started building the wall, which even Logain noted made not the least bit of sense. A wall is nothing for an army of channelers, and only an army of channelers would dare attack the Black Tower. So, we've got the Legion of the Dragon, almost certainly incorporated into Demandred's plan, and the 10,000 mercenaries. How much work do you think this actually requires? I doubt he set the mercenaries up. They came for the reasons Elayne said they came. But Elayne doesn't have the gold to buy them, and Demandred does. Other than that, all he has to do is order around some Darkfriends - something Rahvin always found time for - and balefire some things (which he probably does as seldom as he can get away with). And you can bet he's constantly thinking about how to win the war, and that every little advantage that comes his way will be incorporated into the plans. Like Talmanes.

 

What a shame. here you take time to guess what he might be involved with, and you just limit yourself to the most obvious options. Like being asked to serve a nice dinner, and delivering hot dogs.

 

Lets look at it from a different perspective. Why would Demandreds whereabouts be this huge secret, if he is just posing as some king in a wee little country? Looking at the other forsaken, RJ never hesitated to reveal both location and alter ego. Even Osan'gar was reveald straigh away, and that could have been a huge thing if the revelation had been saved for later.

If it is as simple as Demandred posing as Rhoedran, it does not make any sense to keep it a secret. hat is the big revelation, that murandy plays for the wrong team? We already know that, RJ planted a huge sign screaming *Suspicious' in Murandy, to make sure we got it.

Storytelling for Dummies says 'The bigger the secret is, the bigger the pay-off has to be'. Having it as simple as Demandred posing as Rhoedran would be perhaps the single biggest let-down in the entire series. Which does not quite fit with Brandon considering Demandred one of his favourite characters in AMOL.

[Leyrann]

Or by Mat. :)

 

That would be my favorite part of the book. Except for Cyndane and Moridin turning back to the Light and falling in love which each other.

[Leyrann]

There's nothing to say that the job in Murandy ties him down much. Brilliant tacticians know how to delegate.

 

If your position is secure, delegating is all fine and dandy. But when you are trying to unite a nation, especially one as fractured as Murandy, you really need to be there in person.

It's not exactly clear when he showed up in Murandy, but I'm betting it's not until after LOC. He was there enough to rally the Murandians against the Band, and after that, he likely focused them on Andor, which requires not much work on his part at all, especially with the recent border change. Plus, he's been more or less out of the Black Tower since Moridin returned - it seems Taim answers directly to Moridin now. That doesn't mean that it's not still Demandred's plan. They've been building the wall since TPOD, and the Black Tower was impressive before Moridin returned. I'm guessing Moridin had a dreamspike and Demandred incorporated it into the plans when Moridin returned. That's when they started building the wall, which even Logain noted made not the least bit of sense. A wall is nothing for an army of channelers, and only an army of channelers would dare attack the Black Tower. So, we've got the Legion of the Dragon, almost certainly incorporated into Demandred's plan, and the 10,000 mercenaries. How much work do you think this actually requires? I doubt he set the mercenaries up. They came for the reasons Elayne said they came. But Elayne doesn't have the gold to buy them, and Demandred does. Other than that, all he has to do is order around some Darkfriends - something Rahvin always found time for - and balefire some things (which he probably does as seldom as he can get away with). And you can bet he's constantly thinking about how to win the war, and that every little advantage that comes his way will be incorporated into the plans. Like Talmanes.

 

What a shame. here you take time to guess what he might be involved with, and you just limit yourself to the most obvious options. Like being asked to serve a nice dinner, and delivering hot dogs.

 

Lets look at it from a different perspective. Why would Demandreds whereabouts be this huge secret, if he is just posing as some king in a wee little country? Looking at the other forsaken, RJ never hesitated to reveal both location and alter ego. Even Osan'gar was reveald straigh away, and that could have been a huge thing if the revelation had been saved for later.

If it is as simple as Demandred posing as Rhoedran, it does not make any sense to keep it a secret. hat is the big revelation, that murandy plays for the wrong team? We already know that, RJ planted a huge sign screaming *Suspicious' in Murandy, to make sure we got it.

Storytelling for Dummies says 'The bigger the secret is, the bigger the pay-off has to be'. Having it as simple as Demandred posing as Rhoedran would be perhaps the single biggest let-down in the entire series. Which does not quite fit with Brandon considering Demandred one of his favourite characters in AMOL.

 

I didn't knew there was something suspicious in Murandy until I figured out that Demandred was King Roedran. And for me, Osan'gar was revealed at Shadar Logoth, and not before. And I only figured out who Demandred was by reading theories about Demandred, discussing with my brother (Jarid Sarand and Lunar Galgan have also be suspicious for me), and then putting it together with "my rule is secure", and when he is mentioned and when he could not have appeared. And if there is another one who could be Demandred, or so someone says, then I look if I can rule him out. Until now, I was able to do that with everyone. Who do YOU think he is, Majsju?

[Terez]

There's nothing to say that the job in Murandy ties him down much. Brilliant tacticians know how to delegate.

 

If your position is secure, delegating is all fine and dandy. But when you are trying to unite a nation, especially one as fractured as Murandy, you really need to be there in person.

It's not exactly clear when he showed up in Murandy, but I'm betting it's not until after LOC. He was there enough to rally the Murandians against the Band, and after that, he likely focused them on Andor, which requires not much work on his part at all, especially with the recent border change. Plus, he's been more or less out of the Black Tower since Moridin returned - it seems Taim answers directly to Moridin now. That doesn't mean that it's not still Demandred's plan. They've been building the wall since TPOD, and the Black Tower was impressive before Moridin returned. I'm guessing Moridin had a dreamspike and Demandred incorporated it into the plans when Moridin returned. That's when they started building the wall, which even Logain noted made not the least bit of sense. A wall is nothing for an army of channelers, and only an army of channelers would dare attack the Black Tower. So, we've got the Legion of the Dragon, almost certainly incorporated into Demandred's plan, and the 10,000 mercenaries. How much work do you think this actually requires? I doubt he set the mercenaries up. They came for the reasons Elayne said they came. But Elayne doesn't have the gold to buy them, and Demandred does. Other than that, all he has to do is order around some Darkfriends - something Rahvin always found time for - and balefire some things (which he probably does as seldom as he can get away with). And you can bet he's constantly thinking about how to win the war, and that every little advantage that comes his way will be incorporated into the plans. Like Talmanes.

 

What a shame. here you take time to guess what he might be involved with, and you just limit yourself to the most obvious options. Like being asked to serve a nice dinner, and delivering hot dogs.

Not just the most obvious, but the most important.

 

Lets look at it from a different perspective. Why would Demandreds whereabouts be this huge secret, if he is just posing as some king in a wee little country?

Because the fans made it that way. Keep in mind I think that RJ planted him there after the Taimandred theory got so popular when LOC came out. The first clues for Roedran being Demandred are in TPOD, but everyone saw evidence for Taimandred...and so RJ tried to kill Taimandred dead in WH. Since that didn't work, he came out and killed it directly on the COT tour (and several more times, including on the Tor QOTW and on his blog).

 

Looking at the other forsaken, RJ never hesitated to reveal both location and alter ego. Even Osan'gar was reveald straigh away, and that could have been a huge thing if the revelation had been saved for later.

Technically his identity wasn't revealed until the Cleansing, though we had clues. We had to know what to look for - Aran'gar was never a secret, but Osan'gar was.

 

If it is as simple as Demandred posing as Rhoedran, it does not make any sense to keep it a secret.

For one thing, it's not that simple. RJ wants us to wonder what the hell Demandred is up to. Again, Murandy is a part of that, but only a part.

 

Storytelling for Dummies says 'The bigger the secret is, the bigger the pay-off has to be'. Having it as simple as Demandred posing as Rhoedran would be perhaps the single biggest let-down in the entire series. Which does not quite fit with Brandon considering Demandred one of his favourite characters in AMOL.

You're asking the wrong question though. The question is not 'who is Demandred', but 'what has Demandred been doing all this time'. Brandon said the payoff will be satisfactory, and I believe him...because Roedran is only one part of it. I'm sure other fans will say it was disappointing just because they wanted him to be someone cooler than Roedran. But he is Demandred, not Roedran, so that's hardly relevant....and again, the alter ego obsession was a fanmade obsession, not an RJ-made one. It was always rather simplistic to worry so much about who Demandred was, when there were other, more interesting questions to consider.

[Majsju]

Who do YOU think he is, Majsju?

 

Unlike most people, I tend to keep an open mind. I think that demandred is not posing as anyone at all, instead he is working behind the scenes, using people like Roedran as proxies. However, I do accept that there is a possibility he does have an alter ego, and that alter ego might be roedran. It would be very disappointing in my book, but it is a possibility.

 

A very good approach. By (almost) never tying myself to a single idea, noone ever remembers the few times I have been wrong

 

You're asking the wrong question though. The question is not 'who is Demandred', but 'what has Demandred been doing all this time'. Brandon said the payoff will be satisfactory, and I believe him...because Roedran is only one part of it. I'm sure other fans will say it was disappointing just because they wanted him to be someone cooler than Roedran. But he is Demandred, not Roedran, so that's hardly relevant....and again, the alter ego obsession was a fanmade obsession, not an RJ-made one. It was always rather simplistic to worry so much about who Demandred was, when there were other, more interesting questions to consider.

 

Generally, I tend to ask both questions, as well as a few others. And looking at it from the perspective of why it is kept a secret, we also need to ask 'ould revealing Demandreds alter ego reveal what he is up to?' If he is posing as roedran, that answer is not only 'No', but also 'quite the contrary'. Pinning down Demandred in Murandy focus the attention on what he is up to there, and how all that will play out. Which helps drawing attention away from what he is doing elsewhere, ie the places we should be looking.

Best way to keep a secret is making people believe there is none.

[Terez]

Who do YOU think he is, Majsju?

 

Unlike most people, I tend to keep an open mind. I think that demandred is not posing as anyone at all, instead he is working behind the scenes, using people like Roedran as proxies. However, I do accept that there is a possibility he does have an alter ego, and that alter ego might be roedran. It would be very disappointing in my book, but it is a possibility.

Don't try to play yourself off as being more impartial than everyone else - you just end up contradicting yourself. We all accept that there's a possibility that other theories are true (except for the ones that have been blatantly disproven). As I said on my page, there's still a small possibility that Demandred doesn't have an alter ego. If it were anything more than a small possibility, I assure you, I would still believe it.

 

And looking at it from the perspective of why it is kept a secret

There are quite a few things in the series that have been kept secret for no particular reason beyond the fact that RJ doesn't believe a good author should tell you everything. But revealing that Roedran was Demandred would make it more obvious that Talmanes was being manipulated, for one. For another, it would raise questions about his motives for being there, which would inevitably lead to Andor, and make it a little more obvious what's coming on that front. It got much more obvious in TOM, but we're in the final stretch now. Time for more clues.

[contempt]

I think that demandred is not posing as anyone at all, instead he is working behind the scenes, using people like Roedran as proxies. However, I do accept that there is a possibility he does have an alter ego, and that alter ego might be roedran. It would be very disappointing in my book, but it is a possibility.

This sums up how I currently think & feel right now pretty much exactly, except I would reverse the first part & say I think he does have an alter ego, but I accept the possibility that he doesn't. As for the last part, I couldn't agree more.

 

I've been skimming through the books again now that I know who's ruled out by RJ & BS, but I'm not going to make a stand again until I've got someone (other than Roedran) solid, believable & unable to disprove.

 

I shall return.

[Terez]

Good luck.

[hazelkrs1]

So apparantly one of the only reasons there's still so many holding back from accepting that Demandred=Rhoedran is because supposedly this wouldn't be a big reveal. There's some problems with this; we all know that this series has a dedicated legion of hardcore fan freaks who dissect every word and parable seen in the WoT, so we shouldn't feel disappointed just because another dedicated fan figured something out. More importantly though, we've heard RJ say that if he feels fans we're headed in the wrong direction regarding a certain theory, he would start dropping heavier hints as to what was really going on to help steer people in the right direction. There used to be such a strong following in the Taimendred faction, even after a couple of hints were dropped that they weren't the same person, that RJ probably felt he had to start giving obvious hints. At this point, I really don't know how you can deny that Dem = Rhoedran, aside from the whole "it would be a big letdown" thing.

 

As Terez stated, we often don't ask the right questions concerning the major points of whatever issue we're discussing, we get too focused on one thing in front of us, we get tunnel vision. I'm sure there will end up being a big surprise involving Dem that noone really ever saw coming, so we shouldn't become too desensitized to the reveals in the series that we start overlooking the bigger implications OF those reveals. Many could have seen that Mat would lose an eye in the ToG, but not everyone might have guessed that the whole scene would have been as intense as it ended up being. Just keep the cynicism in check people, this is fantasy that we're trying to enjoy after all.

[Mats Spare Hat]

or OR, that Demandred will be revealed in fact to NOT be Rhoedran, but has in reality been Rhoedran's misbegotten twin brother, Skip, ALL THE WHILE.

 

*fetches tissues for blown minds

 

 

[Luckers]

I'm like Maj, and believe he is no one, but rather using people, and yes I know Brandon's comment seems to infer otherwise--still, that's my feeling.

 

My one addition is that I think his comment that his 'rule was secure and his armies ready for war' had nothing to do with any of the nations, whether or not he has taken the reigns of one. My theory is that that comment refers to the Shadowspawn--that, following the fake Sammael's subversion of so many Trollocs in KoD Demandred was tasked with securing the armies of the Shadow and ensuring that no further such subversions occur--and from there with the general marshalling of the Shadowspawn and the direction of the invasion of the Borderlands.

 

I mean, consider it--for his rule to now be secure, it would have had to have not been secure beforehand. The only not-secure element we know of was the subversion of those Shadowspawn. Since then he has set in place safeguards to ensure no Chosen/Taim-with-Chosen-Mark/Fain is able to again use the Shadows armies against the Shadows intentions. And, too, the only armies that have been launched in a new war since Demandred stated his armies to be ready was the Shadowspawn invasion.

 

Anyway, thems are my thoughts.

[hazelkrs1]

To me, the "rule is secure" thing has to refer to a throne in Randland, because it's kind of understood that any of the Forsaken can command shadowspawn when they want to. This is right around the whole lord of chaos business, so when he responded with that phrase, it meant that his rule in a Randland throne was secure, which meant he could sow seeds of chaos where he wanted. He could be leading the attack on Caemlyn, for all we know, leading Murandians into battle even as the remainder of the Band fights off the last of the Trollocs. We have no idea where he could really end up coming into play.

[Terez]

I thought you had converted as well. That must have been something else. We both said more or less the same thing on Brandon's Facebook comment. As much as I wanted to believe, I found it difficult after a while of thinking about it for a while. But now it is looking familiar.

 

Brandon: *accidentally reveals something*

Terez: Wha?

Brandon: Oh, I didn't mean that really.

Luckers: Great! I'll just go on believing what I did before...

Terez: hmm...

[Luckers]

To me, the "rule is secure" thing has to refer to a throne in Randland, because it's kind of understood that any of the Forsaken can command shadowspawn when they want to. is right around the whole lord of chaos business, so when he responded with that phrase, it meant that his rule in a Randland throne was secure, which meant he could sow seeds of chaos where he wanted.

 

Actually the 'rule is secure' is stated in tGS, directly after the subversion of the Trollocs in KoD [the lord of chaos business was in LoC]. Furthermore, the precise point I'm making is that because any of the Chosen can command the Trollocs they were NOT secure, and the Shadow was angry about this. Demandred securing control of the Trollocs would therefore involve putting in safeguards to ensure none of the Chosen/Taim/Fain again used the Trollocs outside what the Shadow wished--perhaps by say placing Dreadlords who could not be compelled by the Chosen Mark amongst the Trolloc camps, or having guards placed on the Waygates or whatever.

 

That's the theory. Demandred was securing control of the Trollocs for the Shadow. He is the Great Captain of the Shadow, so citing the Trollocs as his rule makes sense. They were not secure beforehand, as KoD shows, and then he secured them by placing safeguards against his fellow Chosen using them without the Shadows permission.

 

I thought you had converted as well. That must have been something else. We both said more or less the same thing on Brandon's Facebook comment. As much as I wanted to believe, I found it difficult after a while of thinking about it for a while. But now it is looking familiar.

 

Brandon: *accidentally reveals something*

Terez: Wha?

Brandon: Oh, I didn't mean that really.

Luckers: Great! I'll just go on believing what I did before...

Terez: hmm...

 

 

No, I actually agree in this instance--Brandon's comment does definately infer Demandred is disguised as someone, my response is a bit of a 'meh' because I don't really care about who Demandred is, so I'll just flow with my old thought and when he is revealed as someone specific I'll nod and smile.

 

The other one is you inferring this. I fully accept everything Brandon said, and it suits me just fine.

[Terez]

I generally accept everything he says, but not necessarily at face value. If he didn't have anything to hide, then maybe I would be a little less skeptical.

[Dreggs Morlock]

BS has the ability to, while pulling one foot out of his mouth, put the other one there quite as firmly. You see him trying to back-track and say, "That is, IF there was a alter ego...", where he might be trying to cover up something else entirely. I have found BS to be just as confounding as RJ, but in very different ways.

 

As to your theory, Terez... it is a good one, backed up nicely, but until we RAFO, thats all it is. Be careful not to respond to EVERYONE who posts, or it starts to feel as though you are being defensive. Your theory stands on its own nicely.

 

I am with Luckers and Maj; I don't see why BS would feel its important to protect Dem's hidy-hole if its only as Roedran. That's not saying I'm against the theory, only that I find the mystery is a bit silly if that is all it amounts to. As you could gather from earlier posts, I DO think Dem has influence there, but like Luckers, I think he has a lot of pots on the stove; unlike other Forsaken, he might not need to be tied down to one kingdom.

 

Further, if Ghealdan has sufficient numbers to be a problem for the Allies of Light, its news to me; RJ and BS have done very little to let the average reader know that. It will be a BIG surprise to a lot of casual readers if a couple of hundred thousand humans in armor come out of Ghealdan fighting for Dem... most will ask, "Where the heck did THAT army come from??!"

 

This is the main reason I'm not sold, and its nothing that a few quotes from an interview or a book will put to rest. That makes me happy... I love discussing theory, and there are good ones to read here. =)

[Terez]

As to your theory, Terez... it is a good one, backed up nicely, but until we RAFO, thats all it is.

And? The same goes for most theories, but some are more supported by the evidence than others.

 

Be careful not to respond to EVERYONE who posts, or it starts to feel as though you are being defensive. Your theory stands on its own nicely.

I will respond to however many people I like. I don't care if people think I'm being defensive; when I see points argued badly, I like to respond.

 

...like Luckers, I think he has a lot of pots on the stove

Everybody thinks that.

 

Further, if Ghealdan has sufficient numbers to be a problem for the Allies of Light, its news to me

Ghealdan? We're talking about Murandy. Alliandre is the Queen of Ghealdan. As for Murandy's forces...Brandon himself said that Roedran would have never hired the Band if there weren't an army worth gathering there. Murandy has always been a weak nation because of its internal divisiveness, not because it doesn't have a substantial population. Now that Roedran has united them, they are no doubt a force to be reckoned with. Still only a small part of Demandred's plans for Caemlyn, but hardly insignificant.