A'dam and Oaths

[BlckAlchmst]

So I got to wondering while reading a chapter about the Seanchan,

The Seanchan have captured many marath'damane (Randland Aes Sedai)

And with the exception of the occassional Accepted or Novice

All of these women have taken the Three Oaths, Oaths so strong as

To cause someone to literally choke on a lie.

So how is it that the Seanchan can use the a'dam to force them

To use the Power as a weapon?

Could the Aes Sedai turned damane then lie while leashed?

 

I guess my question is:

Are leashed Aes Sedai still held by the Three Oaths while leashed?

[Mr Hindley]

Quick answer - yes, they are. I'm sure there's more than one reference to the fact that captured Aes Sedai are useful for making 'skylights' (fireworks) or healing (which most Seanchan are averse to anyway), but useless in battle.

[Luckers]

So I got to wondering while reading a chapter about the Seanchan,

The Seanchan have captured many marath'damane (Randland Aes Sedai)

And with the exception of the occassional Accepted or Novice

All of these women have taken the Three Oaths, Oaths so strong as

To cause someone to literally choke on a lie.

So how is it that the Seanchan can use the a'dam to force them

To use the Power as a weapon?

Could the Aes Sedai turned damane then lie while leashed?

 

I guess my question is:

Are leashed Aes Sedai still held by the Three Oaths while leashed?

 

They are indeed still held by the Three Oaths. The Seanchan cannot force them to either lie or be used as a weapon--this is stated in the series. Ryma, who the Seanchan named Pura, was not able to call a black cloth white, and in KoD its stated that Sheraine, whom the Seanchan call Mylen, is useless as a weapon.

 

It is also clarified by RJ.

 

Week 21 Question: Just how can an Aes Sedai be a damane? Aren't they bound by the Third Oath: to not use the One Power as a weapon except to defend their lives, their Warder's life, or another sister's life? Wouldn't they be useless as damane to the Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan are indeed useless as weapons, except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, because they are bound by the Three Oaths, and that limits their value considerably since being weapons is a major use for damane. Damane are used for other tasks, however, including finding ores for mining (Egwene was tested for this, remember; it's a very valuable, and fairly rare, ability), for some mining operations where it would be too dangerous or uneconomical to use human miners (bringing ores out of the ground and refining them using the Power), and in some construction projects, especially where something very large or with a need for added strength is envisioned. The first two both require a high ability in Earth, which has faded considerably on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean and to a smaller degree of the other side, but construction projects and others things, such as producing Sky Lights, are well within the abilities of collared Aes Sedai. The Three Oaths don't inhibit them there at all.

 

[BlckAlchmst]

Why thank you

I must have forgotten those references.

[herid]

keep in mind that there remains a possibility that the Seanchan will find a way to bypass the Oath about not using the OP as a weapon.

Egwene had a dream of the Seanchan leashing a long line of Aes Sedai and making them attack the White Tower.

 

The Oaths are based on mental perception and all that is necessary is to make the captive Aes Sedai think that they are not breaking the Oaths.

For example, if the Seanchan learn compulsion they could make the Aes Sedai damane think they are being attacked and then they'll be able to use the OP as a weapon.

Tuon for one would certainly not bat an eye at such a scheme.

[Luckers]

keep in mind that there remains a possibility that the Seanchan will find a way to bypass the Oath about not using the OP as a weapon.

Egwene had a dream of the Seanchan leashing a long line of Aes Sedai and making them attack the White Tower.

 

 

A long line of women wearing the great serpant ring, which could refer to the Kin. That being said its my belief that that is an example of a dream that does not come true--there has to be at least one.

[herid]

keep in mind that there remains a possibility that the Seanchan will find a way to bypass the Oath about not using the OP as a weapon.

Egwene had a dream of the Seanchan leashing a long line of Aes Sedai and making them attack the White Tower.

 

 

A long line of women wearing the great serpant ring, which could refer to the Kin. That being said its my belief that that is an example of a dream that does not come true--there has to be at least one.

none of the Kin have great serpent rings. Well, maybe a few that were Accepted once do but hardly many. Certainly none wear theirs openly.

The dream definitely refers to Aes Sedai. It could be a failed dream, yes, but somehow I don't think so. I've wondered about why none of Egwene's dream seem to fail too. There was one minor one of what could happen if she confronted Elayne and Nynaeve (LoC, Ch 14) but that doesn't really count.

All of the others came true or are going to according to BS. Moreover, whenever BS is asked about some particular dreams of Egwene he says that this or that dream has (has not) been fulfilled yet but AFAIK he never once mentioned the possibility that some of her dreams might fail. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that all of her dreams that seem prophetic will actually come to be fulfilled including this one.

[Superhal]

Yeah the belief thing will allow them to "break" (to outside observers, not themselves) the Oaths, and certainly damane training can pretty much make them believe anything.

[Gordar]

keep in mind that there remains a possibility that the Seanchan will find a way to bypass the Oath about not using the OP as a weapon.

Egwene had a dream of the Seanchan leashing a long line of Aes Sedai and making them attack the White Tower.

 

 

A long line of women wearing the great serpant ring, which could refer to the Kin. That being said its my belief that that is an example of a dream that does not come true--there has to be at least one.

none of the Kin have great serpent rings. Well, maybe a few that were Accepted once do but hardly many. Certainly none wear theirs openly.

The dream definitely refers to Aes Sedai. It could be a failed dream, yes, but somehow I don't think so. I've wondered about why none of Egwene's dream seem to fail too. There was one minor one of what could happen if she confronted Elayne and Nynaeve (LoC, Ch 14) but that doesn't really count.

All of the others came true or are going to according to BS. Moreover, whenever BS is asked about some particular dreams of Egwene he says that this or that dream has (has not) been fulfilled yet but AFAIK he never once mentioned the possibility that some of her dreams might fail. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that all of her dreams that seem prophetic will actually come to be fulfilled including this one.

 

Accepted do have a ring and they haven't taken any oaths yet. Maybe that's what Egwene saw in her dream? They probably won't go to the FoM (Which is the time I believe the Seanchan will attack) and they wouldn't stand a chance against the Seanchan. They are (usually) younger, which might make it a bit easier to break them & once that has happened, they could attack the Aes Sedai (they might still be at the FoM or returning to the tower).

[herid]

 

 

Accepted do have a ring and they haven't taken any oaths yet. Maybe that's what Egwene saw in her dream?

possible but also unlikely IMO. As I recall there are less than 50 accepted overall so the Seanchan would have to nab and turn most of them. Breaking somebody takes time. Accepted are not Aes Sedai, yet even so I don't see most of them being turned into obedient damane immediately after being captured. There are only a few days of action left in the books so I don't see how that can work out. I'm quite sure that if this dream does come to pass at all it will be the captive Aes Sedai who will be forced to attack the Tower. The Seanchan have a good number of them and they had time to break them (like Elaida).

[Superhal]

Shielding, healing, travelling and other weaves can be used by marath'damane, as demonstrated by Shiaraine's behavior when Furyk met Mat. Captured AS can still be used in battle.

 

However, there is a paradox: Leashed AS cannot be trained as weapons. However, if taken into battle, they can use the OP to defend themselves, and thus be used as weapons. However, they don't have the training for battle weaves.

[CidV630]

There is also nothing that says its something that will happen beore the last battle either it could be a dream of something that will happen after the books... maybe when the Seanchan are finished fighting the Aiel and have made their way all the way to Tar Valon... so we may never see it happen.

[Superhal]

Ug, I hope it's not another Lord of the Rings/10,000 epilogue ending.

 

I think the best way to wrap everything up is an excerpt from Loial's book about the Dragon Reborn that summarizes events after TG.

[Luckers]

none of the Kin have great serpent rings. Well, maybe a few that were Accepted once do but hardly many. Certainly none wear theirs openly. The dream definitely refers to Aes Sedai.

 

Dreams are often metaphorical--indeed, Aes Sedai damane aren't premitted to wear jewellery anyway, so we know the presence of the ring in the dream speaks only to them having earned the right to where it, not that they are physically wearing it. From there, there are many former Accepted amongst the Kin, all of which have the right to the Great Serpent Ring. In addition the Kin congregate in coastal regions, which is precisely where the Seanchan conquest has occured.

 

So no, the dream needn't refer to Aes Sedai--indeed, given the Oath and the Lightning, that's impossible. From there it will have to be either Accepted, or former Accepted. And given the numbers cited, unless a large number of Accepted are leashed soon, this would have to refer to the Kin--who again are known to live in the areas conquered by the Seanchan in large numbers.

 

Although, new thought, it could refer to Black Sisters.

[herid]

none of the Kin have great serpent rings. Well, maybe a few that were Accepted once do but hardly many. Certainly none wear theirs openly. The dream definitely refers to Aes Sedai.

 

Dreams are often metaphorical--indeed, Aes Sedai damane aren't premitted to wear jewellery anyway, so we know the presence of the ring in the dream speaks only to them having earned the right to where it, not that they are physically wearing it.

Runaway accepted have no right to wear the great serpent rings. None of the kin do so, certainly. Representing them in a dream as wearing rings would be an extremely bad metaphor. I don't see RJ using it.

 

From there, there are many former Accepted amongst the Kin, all of which have the right to the Great Serpent Ring. In addition the Kin congregate in coastal regions, which is precisely where the Seanchan conquest has occured.

There has never been a single mention anywhere in the books of any damane who were formerly Kin. We've seen Aes Sedai damane, Sea Folk Damane, and Wise Ones damane have been mentioned if not seen on screen. No Kin damane have been mentioned even indirectly. Trotting them out now would be very strange indeed.

This means that likely few of them were captured and those that had are not expected to play a significant role.

 

 

So no, the dream needn't refer to Aes Sedai--indeed, given the Oath and the Lightning, that's impossible.

Not impossible. As I said what is required is a way to convince the captive Aes Sedai damane that they are not violating the Oaths. This can be done using compulsion, for example, as I mentioned before. There may be some other trick which we have not thought about. Something along the lines that Siene came up with for defeating the Oath rod. I'm sure the dream means Aes Sedai, not Kin or anybody else.

[Luckers]

Runaway accepted have no right to wear the great serpent rings. None of the kin do so, certainly.

 

I don't know where you got that about runaway Accepted not having a right to the ring--certainly its never stated. Once you have passed the rings you have the right to the ring, whether or not you complete your training. However, even if you are correct about running away forfeiting that right--there is not a single reference to an Accepted running away--ever. Indeed, Accepted training is easier after the first week. There is no labour, more freedom, more respect. Women running away after becoming Accepted seems very unlikely to me--in fact, no, I'm going to say its flat out impossible because Accepted are trained to the degree that they represent no danger to society, and if one truly wanted to leave, the Aes Sedai would let her go--the only reason they hunt runaway novices so persistently is the potential danger. This is stated often.

 

No, the former Accepted amongst the Kin are women who did not attain the shawl, not women who ran away. And yes, they have every right to the ring, whether or not they choose to wear it. Elayne in fact states this flat out.

 

Representing them in a dream as wearing rings would be an extremely bad metaphor. I don't see RJ using it.

 

Whether this refers to Aes Sedai or the Kin, them wearing the ring in the dream is symbolic as neither type of woman would be allowed to wear it as a damane. It speaks therefore only to women who have passed the rings, either way.

 

There has never been a single mention anywhere in the books of any damane who were formerly Kin. We've seen Aes Sedai damane, Sea Folk Damane, and Wise Ones damane have been mentioned if not seen on screen. No Kin damane have been mentioned even indirectly. Trotting them out now would be very strange indeed.

This means that likely few of them were captured and those that had are not expected to play a significant role.

 

 

You're making a lot of personal judgements here. You think it would be a bad metaphor. You think it would be very strange. There are a 1,500 unaccounted for Kin. The Kin tend to live in coastal regions as they are as far from the Tower as possible. The Seanchan conquered coastal regions. I have no problem there being leashed Kin--certainly Nynaeve was concerned enough about Kin left in Seanchan held lands to arrange rescue missions in WH.

 

In fact, the only problem I would have is if there aren't leashed Kin. It's essentially absurd. The Seanchan are not Aes Sedai, to ignore non-Aes Sedai channelers.

 

As for us not seeing them--the only damane concentration we've seen is in Ebou Dar--where Elayne and Nynaeve cleared out the Kin before leaving because of fear of the Gholam. Why would we have seen them? Why would anyone have seen fit to comment? RJ was never the sort to wink at the reader without need.

 

Not impossible. As I said what is required is a way to convince the captive Aes Sedai damane that they are not violating the Oaths. This can be done using compulsion, for example, as I mentioned before. There may be some other trick which we have not thought about. Something along the lines that Siene came up with for defeating the Oath rod. I'm sure the dream means Aes Sedai, not Kin or anybody else

 

Why would the Seanchan bother? They have hundreds of damane that require no such elaborate method. Probably thousands. Women with far more experience, who are broken to the a'dam.

 

As I said above, I essentially believe this to be a failed dream--but if its not, then the idea that this refers to Aes Sedai is very problematic for me. You may be sure, I am far from it.

[dwn]

Shielding, healing, travelling and other weaves can be used by marath'damane, as demonstrated by Shiaraine's behavior when Furyk met Mat. Captured AS can still be used in battle.

 

I think this is the likely meaning behind the dream.

 

Any captured Aes Sedai (or Kin, really) could be made to "attack" the Tower simply by revealing Tower secrets, weaves unknown to the Seanchan, names and locations of spies, etc. Direct use in battle is a pretty small thing compared to all that. Elaida revealing the weave for Travelling is pretty much the equivalent of giving the Seanchan access to ICBMs.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

There appear to be several Oath rods floating around; if the Seanchan get hold of one and know how to use it.... Ishamel has at least three in his possession and the Shaido have one. It might be in Moridin's interest to pass one, along with instructions to the captured AS.

[herid]

Runaway accepted have no right to wear the great serpent rings. None of the kin do so, certainly.

 

I don't know where you got that about runaway Accepted not having a right to the ring--certainly its never stated.

It's not explicitly stated but it would be a very natural assumption. I can hardly imagine them doing otherwise.

 

Once you have passed the rings you have the right to the ring, whether or not you complete your training. However, even if you are correct about running away forfeiting that right--there is not a single reference to an Accepted running away--ever. Indeed, Accepted training is easier after the first week. There is no labour, more freedom, more respect. Women running away after becoming Accepted seems very unlikely to me--in fact, no, I'm going to say its flat out impossible because Accepted are trained to the degree that they represent no danger to society, and if one truly wanted to leave, the Aes Sedai would let her go--the only reason they hunt runaway novices so persistently is the potential danger. This is stated often.

 

There are several references to Accepted running away. Nyn thinks on this in LoC

Runaway Accepted, like runaway novices, were almost always brought back to face punishment that erased any thought of a second attempt. When you began training to be Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai were not finished with you until they said they were.

-LoC, Ch 8

This says that Accepted running away is not something extraordinary and in fact must happen sufficiently frequently as some do manage to escape cleanly.

 

Here is one more reference to Kin helping runaways including Accepted

 

Adeleas blinked, and pulled herself back to the topic. “The Kin help runaways. They always have two or three women in Tar Valon keeping watch. For one thing, they approach almost every woman put out, in a very circumspect way, and for another, they manage to find every runaway, whether novice or Accepted. At least, none has made it off the island without their help since the Trolloc Wars.”

-CoS, Ch 30

This doesn't say that the Kin lets any runaway Accepted stay with them so you may be right that they send most back. On the other hand we've seen some runaway novices among the Kin so some runaway Accepted might be there as well.

 

 

 

No, the former Accepted amongst the Kin are women who did not attain the shawl, not women who ran away. And yes, they have every right to the ring, whether or not they choose to wear it. Elayne in fact states this flat out.

 

Representing them in a dream as wearing rings would be an extremely bad metaphor. I don't see RJ using it.

 

Whether this refers to Aes Sedai or the Kin, them wearing the ring in the dream is symbolic as neither type of woman would be allowed to wear it as a damane. It speaks therefore only to women who have passed the rings, either way.

As I said I consider this a very bad metaphor when applied to Kin even if they do formally have the right to wear the Great Serpent ring which is debatable btw.

None of the Kin wear their serpent rings even if they earned them and they certainly don't consider themselves connected to the Tower (at least the ones that remained in the Seancjan controlled lands), quite the contrary. Representing them as wearing great serpent rings in a dream would be similar to, say, representing RJ as a former nuclear engineer. While technically true this is hardly the most apt description.

 

 

 

There has never been a single mention anywhere in the books of any damane who were formerly Kin. We've seen Aes Sedai damane, Sea Folk Damane, and Wise Ones damane have been mentioned if not seen on screen. No Kin damane have been mentioned even indirectly. Trotting them out now would be very strange indeed.

This means that likely few of them were captured and those that had are not expected to play a significant role.

 

 

You're making a lot of personal judgements here. You think it would be a bad metaphor. You think it would be very strange.

that's right. those are my personal opinions and I never claimed anything more than that. I do believe quite strongly that in this case I'm right and I'm simply trying to present my reasoning. You are certainly free to disagree with my conclusions.

 

There are a 1,500 unaccounted for Kin. The Kin tend to live in coastal regions as they are as far from the Tower as possible. The Seanchan conquered coastal regions. I have no problem there being leashed Kin--certainly Nynaeve was concerned enough about Kin left in Seanchan held lands to arrange rescue missions in WH.

 

In fact, the only problem I would have is if there aren't leashed Kin. It's essentially absurd. The Seanchan are not Aes Sedai, to ignore non-Aes Sedai channelers.

 

As for us not seeing them--the only damane concentration we've seen is in Ebou Dar--where Elayne and Nynaeve cleared out the Kin before leaving because of fear of the Gholam. Why would we have seen them? Why would anyone have seen fit to comment?

Because it's only natural to introduce elements that are going to be used later on. RJ does it routinely, often times far in advance before the actual payoff. When something is completely absent it's usually because it won't be used, not because it's a hidden ploy. For example, we never see post cleansing male channelers among the Aiel. This tells me that most likely it's because they will not play any role in aMoL and not because Rand is secretly training them somewhere.

 

RJ was never the sort to wink at the reader without need.

 

Not impossible. As I said what is required is a way to convince the captive Aes Sedai damane that they are not violating the Oaths. This can be done using compulsion, for example, as I mentioned before. There may be some other trick which we have not thought about. Something along the lines that Siene came up with for defeating the Oath rod. I'm sure the dream means Aes Sedai, not Kin or anybody else

 

Why would the Seanchan bother? They have hundreds of damane that require no such elaborate method. Probably thousands. Women with far more experience, who are broken to the a'dam.

 

It's explicitly mentioned in the books that the Seanchan are very interested in doing this and it's also explained why. Tuon thinks on it when planning the first attack on the Tower.

A strike now could have great impact on the future. Each marath'damane we leash is not only a powerful tool gained by our forces, but one lost by the enemy. Preliminary reports claim that there are hundreds upon hundreds of marath'damane congregated in this place called the White Tower."

That many? Tuon thought. A force like that could turn the war entirely. True, those marath'damane who had traveled with Matrim had said that they would not take part in wars. Indeed, marath'damane who had once been Aes Sedai had—so far—proven useless as weapons. But could there be some way to twist their supposed vows? Something Matrim had said in passing made her suspect they could.

-tGS, Ch 19

The last remark is particularly intriguing. Why even mention something like that if it's not going to play any role?

 

Shielding, healing, travelling and other weaves can be used by marath'damane, as demonstrated by Shiaraine's behavior when Furyk met Mat. Captured AS can still be used in battle.

 

I think this is the likely meaning behind the dream.

 

Any captured Aes Sedai (or Kin, really) could be made to "attack" the Tower simply by revealing Tower secrets, weaves unknown to the Seanchan, names and locations of spies, etc. Direct use in battle is a pretty small thing compared to all that. Elaida revealing the weave for Travelling is pretty much the equivalent of giving the Seanchan access to ICBMs.

 

-- dwn

The dream specifically talks of the Seanchan "collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower." I don't see how that can be interpreted to only mean betrayal of some Aes Sedai secrets and not an actual attack on the Tower.

 

There appear to be several Oath rods floating around; if the Seanchan get hold of one and know how to use it.... Ishamel has at least three in his possession and the Shaido have one. It might be in Moridin's interest to pass one, along with instructions to the captured AS.

That's an interesting idea that I've never thought of. It might be a possibility.

[dwn]

Shielding, healing, travelling and other weaves can be used by marath'damane, as demonstrated by Shiaraine's behavior when Furyk met Mat. Captured AS can still be used in battle.

 

I think this is the likely meaning behind the dream.

 

Any captured Aes Sedai (or Kin, really) could be made to "attack" the Tower simply by revealing Tower secrets, weaves unknown to the Seanchan, names and locations of spies, etc. Direct use in battle is a pretty small thing compared to all that. Elaida revealing the weave for Travelling is pretty much the equivalent of giving the Seanchan access to ICBMs.

 

-- dwn

The dream specifically talks of the Seanchan "collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower." I don't see how that can be interpreted to only mean betrayal of some Aes Sedai secrets and not an actual attack on the Tower.

 

 

Did Mat actually pluck out his own eye and place it on a balance scale? Did two ravens actually attack the White Tower? Dreams speak in metaphors.

 

-- dwn

[herid]

Shielding, healing, travelling and other weaves can be used by marath'damane, as demonstrated by Shiaraine's behavior when Furyk met Mat. Captured AS can still be used in battle.

 

I think this is the likely meaning behind the dream.

 

Any captured Aes Sedai (or Kin, really) could be made to "attack" the Tower simply by revealing Tower secrets, weaves unknown to the Seanchan, names and locations of spies, etc. Direct use in battle is a pretty small thing compared to all that. Elaida revealing the weave for Travelling is pretty much the equivalent of giving the Seanchan access to ICBMs.

 

-- dwn

The dream specifically talks of the Seanchan "collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower." I don't see how that can be interpreted to only mean betrayal of some Aes Sedai secrets and not an actual attack on the Tower.

 

 

Did Mat actually pluck out his own eye and place it on a balance scale? Did two ravens actually attack the White Tower? Dreams speak in metaphors.

 

-- dwn

I'm certainly aware of that but just as with Luckers' explanation I consider yours a bad metaphor unlike the two examples you mention where the metaphors are fairly straightforward. This has been the case with all the dreams and prophecies that have been fulfilled so far. I don't recall any fulfilled dream where after the fact people would complain that the actual resolution didn't match the dream well. I certainly never had any problems with any of them myself. But if this one resolves as you suggest I would have a big problem and won't consider it acceptable. That's all I'm saying.