graendal ethics / tuon compulsion

[Superhal]

 

The Ta'veren effect doesn't have an unlimited range, so Moiraine, Lan and even Thom must already have been in the Two Rivers and probably also close to Emonds field for it to have any effect. Since the only reason to be close to Emonds Field is to actually go there, I don't think it's likely that there was a ta'veren effect at all.

 

In tFoH, after the battle of Two Rivers, Perrin tells Faile, "He (Rand) needs me. I can feel him tugging" or something to that effect. Rand, at that moment, is chasing the Shaido over the Dragonmount. That's as far as you can get.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think that's their rainbow bright power.

[Manscher]

The connection between those 3 aren't really "normal" ta'veren effects, they seem rather unique for those 3, Perrin notices in ToM that it somehow feels right when he meets Mat again.

 

AS for range, I don't really think theres any range limit, Mat was able to drag Verin from Tear to Murandy for example.

[Gordar]

AS for range, I don't really think theres any range limit, Mat was able to drag Verin from Tear to Murandy for example.

 

This time' date=' studying her, her mannerisms seemed too exaggerated to him. As if she were leaning on the preconceptions about Browns, using them. Fooling people, like a street performer taking in country boys with a clever game of three-card shuffle.

 

She eyed him. That smile on the corner of her lips? That was the smile of a jackleg who didn't care that you were on to her con. Now that you understood, you could both enjoy the game, and perhaps together you could dupe someone else.[/quote']

 

Considering Verin is Black Ajah, Tomas, her warder, is a darkfriend who wants to leave the DF society and considering the quote above, it's not too far fetched to assume that she's simply lying. Tomas most certainly won't betray her.

 

If Verin had just come & told him he had to go to Caemlyn, Mat would probably say he was going the other way & would probably convince himself that it was exactly what he wanted to do. If Verin told him a story portraying the futility of trying to go the other way, which she did, Mat would more easily persuaded to go to Caemlyn.

 

I think that everyone who has read ToM knows why Verin wanted Mat to go to Caemlyn.

 

 

All the other Ta'veren effects we've seen, ranging from persuading people (Perrin), luck at games, in battles, etc. (Mat) and the random things happening, like people who hate eachother marrying and people surviving falls that should have killed them, etc. (Rand), required the presence or in Rand's case, the proximity of the Ta'veren.

[hazelkrs1]

Something that I just wanted to throw in here: The concept of free will does not discount the idea of fate, or destiny. Even though you can use your free will to make whatever decisions you'd like, it doesn't mean that you weren't supposed to make those decisions to fit some grand pattern. Too many people like to try and make that distinction, I believe it's why atheism will seem so fetching to the occassional young brilliant mind. Destiny (read: The Pattern) simply lays out the order of everything that is to happen, much like a plot is outlined in a book. The difference is instead of an author who arbitrarily chooses what his characters will say or do, you have a creator who, in his omnipotence, already knows what everyone will say or do. So, to reiterate, free will and fate are not mutually exclusive notions. Therefore, you could have a ta'veren who decides to use his ta'vereness to achieve some goal, and it wouldn't mean that he's working outside the pattern's designs.

 

On the contrary, if a ta'veren, like oh say Artur Hawking, decided to use his ta'vereness to achieve great fame and power (nothing shows that he would have been aware of his ta'vereness, but it's likely he did and even if he didn't know what he was using he still used it) he would still be operating in the framework of the pattern. If Hawking hadn't raised his armies and essentially united everyone into one kingdom, some of the Dark Ones plans could have possibly succeeded. Or you could look at it and say that even though Hawking was a "rogue" ta'veren who was using his nature outside of the "will" of the pattern, and evidence of that would be the eventual creation of the Seanchan empire whish has finally seemed to throw a wrench into everything (at least until a possible RAFO moment in which it makes sense for them to have been a second antagonist), it would still be proof of someone using their ta'veren when they wanted to.

 

One thing which would seem to be a hitch in this idea would be the notion of the ta'veren effect not working, like how it didn't work on Tuon. Essentially this might make it seem that the Pattern (and thus, the Creator) is fallible and this would have some pretty dire implications for Randland. I would say that if this is the case, it probably has something to do with the fact that the DO has started to affect the world more, and he can kind of cancel out the ta'veren effect. More likely though, is that even though you CAN use your free will to determine when you might try to use your ta'vereness, if it wasn't meant to be then somehow the Pattern will stop it from happening.

 

One final example I'll give of why it's likely that our heroes can choose to use their ta'vereness is Zen Rand. Notice that before his epiphany, his ta'veren effect always seems to be erratic, in that sometimes it has good outcomes, sometimes bad. After he becomes Zen Rand, it's like he figured something out and because he's become a true Messianic figure, he's able to use his ta'veren effect so that it always helps. For instance,

he knows that him being around that apple orchard in the prologue of ToM will reverse the DO's effect on that area.

 

 

 

 

Ok this small post turned into a big one once again, so I bid you fellas adieu.