Swords in Randland

[aznprince001]

There are distinct differences of swords in every culture:

 

katana, dao, scimitar, long sword, broadsword, bastard sword, roman short swords, etc.

 

What about Randland? Does Callandor have a curve or is it a straight forward piece of metal from Europe? Does it have a hand guard? a wheel pommel or point?

 

Ideas or opinions

[SinisterDeath]

Well we know its made out of crystal. I think the Hilt and such are to. If I were to make something like that into crystal and be a sa'angrael. I'd make it similar to a broad sword... on the 3rd book theres a picture of it.. ITs not very broad, but rather thin and long. 'Long Sword maybe?' :P

I don't think its a Katana or Scimitar type sword. Only rands, and others steel+ swords are described as slighty curved.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Actually the picture of Callandor on the cover of TDR doesn't come close at all to matching the physical description in the books. In TDR, PoD and WH the blade is descibed as slightly curved, not straight like a long sword or broadsword. Strictly by the discriptions in the books, it looks alot like the katana-like swords that most of the main characters use (Rand, Lan, Galad, Gawyn, ect...).

 

I also think that since it has so many parallels to Excalibur, we make the assumption that it looks like the archtypical long sword that is often associated with Excalibur.

[aznprince001]

i've always pictured rand with a European sword with a slight curve at the tip.

 

http://imagescommerce.bcentral.com/merchantfiles/5077181/Sinbad%20Scimitar.jpg

 

 

kinda what it thought what he might wield.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Given the grips and styles of fighting described, it is clear that the closest real life comparison is a katana, for both Callandor and pretty much every heron-mark blade described.

 

This makes sense. The katana design is probably the most efficient and effective ever created for two handed use. It maximizes cutting power, defensive strength, and overall versatility.

[SinisterDeath]

Actually the picture of Callandor on the cover of TDR doesn't come close at all to matching the physical description in the books. In TDR, PoD and WH the blade is descibed as slightly curved, not straight like a long sword or broadsword. Strictly by the discriptions in the books, it looks alot like the katana-like swords that most of the main characters use (Rand, Lan, Galad, Gawyn, ect...).

 

I know the pictures are often wrong, but Then again, I don't remember reading callandor having a curved tip.

[RobertAlexWillis]

A crystal sword with a curved blade, it is the only sa'angreal known to be made in the form of a weapon.

 

The BWB, page 44.

[aznprince001]

The sword that Tam gave Rand, i've pictured it as a European longsword. maybe like...the sword in the movie: "Kingdom of Heaven" execept for that diamond wheel pommel. It could look a heron marked blade.

 

 

maybe like this:

http://ffmedia.ign.com/filmforce/image/article/600/600887/kingdom-of-heaven-20050401031841016-001.jpg

[RobertAlexWillis]

Slowly Tam drew the weapon; firelight played along the gleaming length. It was nothing at all like the plain, rough blades Rand had seen in the hands of merchants' guards. No gems or gold adorned it, but it seemed grand to him, nonetheless. The blade, very slightly curved and sharp on only one edge, bore another heron etched into the steel. Short quillons, worked to look like braid, flanked the hilt.

 

The Eye of the World, chapter 5 Winternight

 

Sorry aznprince, its a katana. All of the heron-mark swords seem to be. That's because if you have only one weapon to choose for every situation, the katana is going to serve you best (barring firearms, of course).

[aznprince001]

dang it... I've pretty much forgot everything in the eye of the world. Time to reread=)

[aznprince001]

Just look at the sword:

 

http://www.yale.edu/anime/imgarchive/Scrapped%20Princess/design-shannon.gif

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's probably pretty close. Maybe a touch more curved, maybe not, but close. The quillons on the guard are braided instead of straight, and the grip may be a bit longer, but those are petty details, the blade itself is very close.

[Skowsa]

I have always imagined a mroe curved look to the Heron Mark swords myself. Something similar to a katana.

[Guest Majsju]

Just look at the sword:

 

http://www.yale.edu/anime/imgarchive/Scrapped%20Princess/design-shannon.gif

 

A bit too big, it's almost close to a European 2-hand, or at least a 1½-hand sword, and those were used more for chopping than the kind of fighting blademasters do. If Rand's sword had been that big, he wouldn't be able to lift the sword after 10 minutes, which is kinda bad if you're in the middle of a battle.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ah, Maj, assuming that guy in the pic is six feet tall, his sword would be about 48-52 inches, including the hilt, which is a little long for a two-handed katana, but not by much. One reason for power-wrought blades (assuming that their reasoning was the same as the reasons that metal-folding techniques were developed in feudal Japan) is to be able to make a larger sword lighter.

 

A good European two-hander can be up to a foot longer and much thicker. Those *@^($*&^ things are HEAVY. But I own a 50 inch katana, and I can play with it for 3 or 4 hours if the mood strikes me without getting too worn out. I'm betting Rand is in better shape than I am, so 48-52 inches of Power-wrought steel isn't unreasonable.

[aznprince001]

Well here is my theory:

 

You need somewhat of a heavy sword to fight a war.

 

1. If ur hefting a sword, and say a trolloc comes by with a axe or spear, he'll take you down.

2. The sword has to be somewhat heavier so it can pierce armor. Otherwise u are relying too much on strength and that would make you more tired that lifting a heavy sword.

3. Your sword needs to be able to parry a spear. Maj, try parrying sometime. Its okay to parry of your enemy who has another sword in eqaul or lesser length, but come a bigger sword, spear, axe, or a halbeard, you need something of weight to punch that metal out of your face.

 

About 3: Maj, pick up a sword that u specified, a really light one; If someone slashed at you with a chunck of steel, their is no way you can parry, you dodge than counter attack.

 

I didn't read about Rand's counterattacks very much.

 

Trust me, warefare is my life.

[SinisterDeath]

Well, we really havent seen rand fight people who didn't also have a sword...

That and him being a sword master vs someone who basiaclly knows that a maul you just swing at and try to crush someone with it. *no real skills just basic knowledge of how to use it* will get, quite simply, pwned by a sword master.. The maneuverability alone!

 

As for swords, Randlander swords might have a katana type look to them, but I somewhat doubt they are made via the same way. The way they are made sugjests they are made in a more european way.

The quality of the steel they have is another issue all together. IE if they have good steel, european method works, if they have low quality steel, the japanese method works.

So heres a possibility..

Maybe the 'katana like' swords in randland, have the katana shape, but are somewhat heavier like that of a more common european sword?

From the sounds of it, Playing with a sword all day takes alot of effort, even for Rand, Infact, I seem to remember Rand saying his arms were like dead weights after fighting Turok.

[aznprince001]

Just to touch up on sword play:

 

The Chinese Dao was like a sword we see in the Jet Li movies and such, very versatile and sometimes bendy. It was mostly used for stabbing and lunges. The idea of a ninja dancing in the air comes from this style of fighting.

 

The Japanese sword or katana was meant for slashing and chops. The Japanese used a lot of intimidation in their warfare, (the had horns on helmets, painted armor bright color, screamed like devils when charging the enemy)

 

It is also very intimidating when a man who (looks bigger in armor) starts hacking towards you. However, the katana was used as a stabbing weapon in seppuka and honor killings*.

 

*killing a nearly dead enemey is also considered a honor kill.

[aznprince001]

Quote:

The quality of the steel they have is another issue all together. IE if they have good steel, european method works, if they have low quality steel, the japanese method works.

 

 

I would like to contradict that Europe had fine steele and japan did not. Japan is famous for their resilient steele swords and also perfecting steel swords before Europeans.

 

Europeans however, have been known to take scimitars from dead Arabs (during the crusades) ,Arabic iron was more resilient than European iron, because of infused nitrogen.[/b]

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Japanese perfected metal folding techniques that allowed them to make superior weapons out of lower grade materials. European steel of the LATE Middle Ages and Renaissance was generally of higher innate quality.

 

Interestingly, the famous Arabic "Damascus steel" may well have been imported from India, specifically Sri Lanka. And it was carbon that was infused, not nitrogen.

[SinisterDeath]

The Japanese perfected metal folding techniques that allowed them to make superior weapons out of lower grade materials. European steel of the LATE Middle Ages and Renaissance was generally of higher innate quality.

 

Interestingly, the famous Arabic "Damascus steel" may well have been imported from India, specifically Sri Lanka. And it was carbon that was infused, not nitrogen.

 

aww man, you like totally beat me to that!

/sigh

O well you expanded even more.

Yes, european innert steel was higher quality then japanese steel.

And like you said, the folding technique helped make the steel better even though it was from a worse material.

Folding is basically what it sounds like.. folding the metal fusing the two pieces together.. Every time you fold it however, the metal can get potentially weaker, and stronger... Basically it takes out the impurities, but everytime you fold it, you lose any carbon thats in it. *carbon gives it strength, impurities make it weaker..*

That and the Japanese cooled there steel much slower then eurpeans. Cooling it so fast, made there swords really hard, but brittle. The japanese steel swords, being cooled slower, allowed them to be more flexiable.. Infact, there swords even the edge as cooled faster then the middle part of the blade. Allowing the edge to keep its edge, and the main part of the blade to be flexible.. Both crucial in combat.. I'd rather have a blade that flexes a bit, over one that shatters on a heavy blow! :P

 

Now i'd have loved to see a european vs japanese war scenerio, cause you just know the japanese would have kicked there arses! Armor, weaponry were pretty good.. Though, I think the welsh longbow would have given the Japanese some worries.

[Guest Majsju]

Ah, Maj, assuming that guy in the pic is six feet tall, his sword would be about 48-52 inches, including the hilt, which is a little long for a two-handed katana, but not by much. One reason for power-wrought blades (assuming that their reasoning was the same as the reasons that metal-folding techniques were developed in feudal Japan) is to be able to make a larger sword lighter.

 

Actually, I was thinking more about how broad it is than how tall it is.

Ana a 2-hand sword is virtually impossible to use in man-to-man combat, it's purpose is to strike down on enemies from a horseback.

 

About 3: Maj, pick up a sword that u specified, a really light one; If someone slashed at you with a chunck of steel, their is no way you can parry, you dodge than counter attack.

 

I didn't say a really light one. There are however quite a few kilos difference between a large katana and a European great sword. And it is still very possible to parry a Euroean sword with a katana, since the katana offers more options than just holding the sword out and hope for the best when parrying.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There are however quite a few kilos difference between a large katana and a European great sword.

 

Boy oh boy is THAT true!

[Voices of Reason]

I could be mistaken, but most heron marked blades and other weapons used by their respective masters were power-wrought. Therefore any type of sword (katana, broad, etc.) could deflect a blow from any other. It might take some effort but parrying is supposed to be relatively effortless (in terms of muscle required) if done properly. Blocking straight up would be more difficult with a light weapon but if it's power-wrought there is no chance of breaking so it isn't terrible challenging even to block.

[Trib4l]

In conversations with Lan, Rand learns that power wrought blades were rare, and power wrought heron mark blades were rarer still. I guess we can attribute Rand's ability to acquire them to his being ta'veren, but either way, they are identified as a rare item.

 

I agree with you regarding their ability to withstand any blow.