Rand defeating the Dark One, for once and for all..

[WhiskyJack]

DO can create and Creator can destroy. DO is merely destroying what Creator built.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

 

Idea of defeating DO goes beyond defeating an "chaotic" entity. "Evil" inside men's heart cannot be defeated but kept at bay. People by nature are corrupt and they don't need a DO to do bad things. DO| here merely represents larger than life evil. Just like evil men will always be there, so will it be. And they lived happily ever after never happens.

 

Metaphorically this just doesn't work for me not in WoT

The DO is the big-bad bogeyman. The evil inside men's hearts doesn't matter in the slightest. Your presumption is that the DO is evil. How is the DO evil? His plan is to destroy the Pattern. People refer to him as evil, just like people in our world refer to God as good. I think its prudent to understand that in much the same way that no fathomable way to kill the DO can be discovered or understood, so too can no mortal in the Pattern understand and comprehend his frame of mind. Maybe he's not evil. To be childish, maybe he really just doesn't like whatever colour the Creator made the pattern. Am I evil for killing mosquito's? or discarding a mug because its baby blue?

 

I'm not defending the cause of the DO here, I'm just saying that to draw a comparison to the evil in mens hearts is wrong in terms of the book. For the evil of the DO to carry on existing as a metaphor of the evils we continue to see in our world, despite the fact that numerous religions have long since brought us our salvation, isn't representative of the purpose, drive, motivation and result of evil in WoT aside from the fact that they are both repeating or seem to be endless. Which is more about action, rather than reason.

 

As an example. LotR - Very much a representation of the evils in our lives. Sauron wishes to 'cover the land in darkness' and 'RULE' over the world. This relates to greed, hate, jealousy and things that are very much in our hearts and the hearts of the characters. As is said in the Silmarillion, the evil that Morgoth seeded in the hearts of elves and men oft sprouted anew and bore fruit (Feanor, Numenor, Saruman, We see the weakness of Boromir, Denethor etc etc. We see this in our own lives quite readily, greedy corporations, despotic rulers, war, genocide etc.

 

How many people in the past have decided that the Earth is crap and should be done away with along with all of us? None?

 

In WoT. The DO's purpose isn't clearly enough defined for us to judge it so. Why does he want to destroy the Pattern? Because it's his nature?

 

Besides, the evil of man represented by Mordeth is evil vs. evil. Not evil twisting good to evil for evil purpose. And it sure is distinct in it's difference to the evil of the DO (Cleansing of Saidin). If a duality between the evil of the DO and the evil of man was to be used in the books as such, this would've been the perfect opportunity for the writer to do so and he didn't

 

 

Well if you accept the definition of the word 'evil' then yes, the DO is evil. There is a difference between weakness and pure unadulterated evil (as it is defined). If every act you do is essentially to cause others pain and/or do everything possible to make the known world cease to exist, then in my mind that's different from acting on an impulse to do something you know is wrong.

 

There is much existentialism in this thread and in the overall concept of the series. However everything must have a balance, or an equal and opposite reaction if you will. If you look at the DO as a god then who is his opposing force? The Creator? There cannot be a kind of evil super-being without a good one. If Rand can die then why can't the DO?

 

Really when you think about it, the DO's forces had tons of advantages. Aside from Rand, who could match up with the Forsaken? Even if you believe that each of the main characters was the equal of a Forsaken (maybe due to tav'eren happenings and in some cases great power), that still leaves quite a few Chosen wandering about loose. Plus figure in Shaidar Haran

and their ancient knowledge in regard to weaves/items/locations. They also have personal experience with Lews Therin and know him and his capabilities/tendencies well.

 

So imho 'good' are the eternal underdogs and I hope they win, if you consider winning putting the DO on ice in some fashion that allows him to come back again in the far future, then yes good wins. How do you completely obliterate evil incarnate?

[Awakened]

 

I don't agree. Power is only 'Power over...'. If the Pattern is destroyed, the DO would have more power over what precisely? I get that he wants to break his prison, but he needs a purpose

 

 

The Pattern is time and space. Presumably, once he breaks out of the Pattern he will be able to rewrite history or just unmake everything. And if the Pattern is what the Creator has invested his power into as a blow against the Dark One than when the Dark One gets out it is entirely possible that the Creator will be out of oomph.

[Awakened]

 

 

Can anyone else think of a conflict resolution to the series that doesn't end in these ways

 

- Rand kills DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand permanently seals DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand seals DO temporarily (Which effectively means Moridin is correct)

- Fain becomes DO (Plausible yet incredibly unlikely scenario we've seen on the boards)

 

What else could really happen?

 

 

The flaw in Callandor becomes apparent when he tries to seal the Dark One away and the Dark One slips his essence in Rand through Callandor when Rand is channeling the One Power. Now Rand and the Dark One are one and the Dark One is seconds away from being truly free. But the Light in side of Rand combined with his double wound makes Rand a surprisingly good prison for the Dark One himself and Rand is able to contain the entirety of the Dark One and gives Rand just a couple of seconds where he can hold the Dark One back from the Pattern with Alivia's help. Padin Fain steps in and kills Rand/Dark One by stabbing them in the heart and Rand dies Jesus style. Rand moves on to his next life where he lives a quiet existence since there is no longer a need for him and the Dark One is dead. Padin Fain is killed somehow and the people of Randland now have to learn how to live with each other. And hopefully Tuon becomes a Dammane and Mat marries that Fireworks maker.

 

You do realize that you cannot "stab" DO to death? Even if it somehow "posses" Rand's body, killing Rand's body will kill just Rand! DO will just move on. It doesn't have blood, nor flesh. You are only stabbing flesh of a human. This would all make more sense if DO actually can walk the world in his own flesh. Taking over someone's body is like a ghost taking over your body. You kill the body and it just walks away. Worse, DO is Lord of Grave. Fain stabs Rand and DO simply keeps Rand's soul in his body. Rand can get stabbed million times and he still might not "die". My 2 cents.

 

P.S: Even if DO can "posses" a human body, I think that body would disintegrate in billionth of a second or something.

 

 

An ordinary person perhaps, but considering what Nynaeve found when she delved Rand's brain and considering simply what Rand is perhaps Rand can hold the Dark One in temporarily. Also, you are aware that Fain's ruby dagger isn't just something that has been stained with the poison's of Shadar Logoth. I will have to go back to find which one, but that dagger was apparently the source of the corruption of Shadar Logoth. What that means precisely is up to speculation, however, considering that the dagger ultimately helped to create something that could destroy the taint on Saidin... Well, I could be wrong but he definitely still has a role to play. What is your theory on what Fain winds up doing at the end?

[Awakened]

 

You do realize that you cannot "stab" DO to death? Even if it somehow "posses" Rand's body, killing Rand's body will kill just Rand! DO will just move on. It doesn't have blood, nor flesh. You are only stabbing flesh of a human. This would all make more sense if DO actually can walk the world in his own flesh. Taking over someone's body is like a ghost taking over your body. You kill the body and it just walks away. Worse, DO is Lord of Grave. Fain stabs Rand and DO simply keeps Rand's soul in his body. Rand can get stabbed million times and he still might not "die". My 2 cents.

 

P.S: Even if DO can "posses" a human body, I think that body would disintegrate in billionth of a second or something.

 

Also, are you trying to be funny? I searched my post but couldn't find where I misspelled the word "possess". Also, if the Dark One used Rand to shuttle himself out of its prison and into the Pattern than he might actually be willing to make himself temporarily vulnerable.

[Awakened]

 

Well if you accept the definition of the word 'evil' then yes, the DO is evil. There is a difference between weakness and pure unadulterated evil (as it is defined). If every act you do is essentially to cause others pain and/or do everything possible to make the known world cease to exist, then in my mind that's different from acting on an impulse to do something you know is wrong.

 

There is much existentialism in this thread and in the overall concept of the series. However everything must have a balance, or an equal and opposite reaction if you will. If you look at the DO as a god then who is his opposing force? The Creator? There cannot be a kind of evil super-being without a good one. If Rand can die then why can't the DO?

 

Really when you think about it, the DO's forces had tons of advantages. Aside from Rand, who could match up with the Forsaken? Even if you believe that each of the main characters was the equal of a Forsaken (maybe due to tav'eren happenings and in some cases great power), that still leaves quite a few Chosen wandering about loose. Plus figure in Shaidar Haran

and their ancient knowledge in regard to weaves/items/locations. They also have personal experience with Lews Therin and know him and his capabilities/tendencies well.

 

So imho 'good' are the eternal underdogs and I hope they win, if you consider winning putting the DO on ice in some fashion that allows him to come back again in the far future, then yes good wins. How do you completely obliterate evil incarnate?

 

Except 'good' doesn't really win because the Dark One is still going to destroy everyone's soul at some point. It may be that the Wheel will just keep spinning out new souls to keep the Dark One at bay, and it may be that the Dragon will forever be able to keep himself safe, but everyone else is destined to get hammered into a Myrdraal's sword at some point or else be devoured by a Dragkhar or some new Black Wind or even a new Shadar Logoth. For everyone who isn't the Dragon the Wheel will stop and the Light will die. If not in this Age than in another. The Dark One may lose at the end of this book, but if he isn't destroyed he won't even lose as badly as everyone else. The Dark One still gets to poke a finger or two out of his prison at least once every turning and have some fun. He even laughs sometimes. And at best this is the way it will be forever. You and everyone else, however, are going to be destroyed at some point. No matter how you slice it you still lose worse than the Dark One if he can't be permanently stopped.

[Jimvzyl]

Except 'good' doesn't really win because the Dark One is still going to destroy everyone's soul at some point. It may be that the Wheel will just keep spinning out new souls to keep the Dark One at bay, and it may be that the Dragon will forever be able to keep himself safe, but everyone else is destined to get hammered into a Myrdraal's sword at some point or else be devoured by a Dragkhar or some new Black Wind or even a new Shadar Logoth. For everyone who isn't the Dragon the Wheel will stop and the Light will die. If not in this Age than in another. The Dark One may lose at the end of this book, but if he isn't destroyed he won't even lose as badly as everyone else. The Dark One still gets to poke a finger or two out of his prison at least once every turning and have some fun. He even laughs sometimes. And at best this is the way it will be forever. You and everyone else, however, are going to be destroyed at some point. No matter how you slice it you still lose worse than the Dark One if he can't be permanently stopped.

 

Aslong as there is a Pattern, everyone will be reborn.

I do agree that the chances of you getting eaten by Trollocs in your life is now roughly 1/7 per rebirth, which is no good. :)

[W_A]

Maybe if the DO wins, he can make his own world and imprison the creator there so the creator is that world's DO and then the DO can finally rest, until the creator breaks free and he has to try breaking out again. A sort of eternal game of hide and seek, where you're really tired and don't want to be 'it.'

[Awakened]

 

Aslong as there is a Pattern, everyone will be reborn.

I do agree that the chances of you getting eaten by Trollocs in your life is now roughly 1/7 per rebirth, which is no good. :)

 

How does that happen after your soul gets eaten by the Black Wind? If that is true then all the talk about Dragkhar eating souls is rubbish.

[Alternate34]

Well, if Rand simply seals the DO away again, Shai'tan has won.

RJ focused on this age and gave us the WoT philosophy, as well as Moridin's own philosophy, and if Rand doesn't do something totally different then there has been no real win or conclusion. I just don't think RJ was that sort of writer.

 

How has Shai'tan won if he is sealed? That is a losing condition for him. It means he has much less effect on the Pattern and people can begin to rebuild their lives without the corrupting effect of Shai'tan.

 

As for Moridin's philosophy has to be proven wrong, there are several reasons why a good writer would not do this by annihilating Shai'tan.

 

First, it emphasizes that logic is not the only or primary means of knowledge. Even if logically, the Dark One will win because of the infinite number of times the battle gets played out, those who fight the Dark One continue to fight because of knowledge outside of a silly logic puzzle that is not even unassailable.

 

Second, it emphasizes that people are constantly able to battle and battle back against the scourge of evil. The conclusion isn't that people are perfect, but that people are good enough to prevent evil from triumphing permanently. It reinforces the idea that life is constant struggle rather than one single battle that solves everything when you win.

 

On a side note, Moridin may have already been disproven. The Pattern's scope is all space and time. If the Dark One wins, Moridin believes all space and time will be either eradicated or replaced by the Dark One's vision. A win at any point in time would effect all points in time. Since the present time is not controlled by the Dark One, no other time is controlled by the Dark One, meaning that over the infinity of existence, the Dark One has never had a complete victory. Even more damning a proof is that infinity extends backwards, not just forwards in time, because there is "no beginning", just beginnings. The Dark One has already had infinite attempts at wrecking the Pattern and has lost everytime. Since the number of failures is infinity, that means the odds for him winning are zero. The past provides empirical evidence for the counter argument to Moridin.

 

Now, if the Dark One was destroyed permanently, it would be incredibly unsatisfying and poor writing. Rand's big revelation is that infinite reincarnation in cyclical time is not bad because of love. If all of a sudden, Rand got rid of cyclical time, his revelation would be pointless. It would be, "Remember Veins of Gold? The climax of the series? Yeah, it was pointless. Rand's big step forward there doesn't matter anymore."

 

Removing cyclical time would have this exact effect because the power of Rand's revelation is in the face of reliving the same life over and over. If time were not cyclical, outcomes would change, and he would not have to accept the fact of fate in the WoT.

[garryowen]

Sealing the Dark One away neither proves nor disproves Moridin's ideas. The only thing that can prove Moridin correct is the Dark One being freed and the destruction of the pattern, in which case it doesn't really matter that Moridin was right because he won't exist to gloat about it. Moridin already has been proven wrong an infinite number of times. Time by its cyclical nature in the Wheel of Time is doubly infinite. So if at any point in the past turnings of the wheel The Dark One had succeeded, the pattern would cease to exist.

 

Permanently sealing him is not possible even for the creator. What makes you think the protagonist will be able to do something that the almighty cannot? I dislike the thought of the Dark One being killed. (Permanently sealed would basically be the same thing.) It isn't going to happen, but there will still be resolution to the story in his sealing. As to the complaint that to continue the story you go back to page one and/or you'd need an infinite number of WoT books, well the latter probably isn't going to happen but I'm pretty sure that is the whole idea behind the series. Problem?

[Awakened]

Sealing the Dark One away neither proves nor disproves Moridin's ideas. The only thing that can prove Moridin correct is the Dark One being freed and the destruction of the pattern, in which case it doesn't really matter that Moridin was right because he won't exist to gloat about it. Moridin already has been proven wrong an infinite number of times.

 

Do you remember that Ogier in The Great Hunt that had his soul eaten by the Black Wind? Moridin was right as far as he was concerned.

[mike c]

So in ToM Min thinks she is on to something with this phrase from her books...

 

ToM "A Storm if Light"

 

light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized

 

Anyone have guesses as to what that could be referring to? Min seems to think it's a dangerous flaw in callandor but it could be key in what Rand ends up doing.

I can't remember which book but I believe lanfear gave the definition of the true power as channeling the dark one himself

 

so if the he in the quote is the dark one than rand would be able to seize the true power and use that in conjunction with saidar and saidin to seal the bore back to pre age of legends quality with no taint