Ta'veren

[FossMaNo1]

Throughout the books we've associated "Ta'veren" with the good guys: Rand, Mat, & Perrin. Heck, even historically Ta'veren are looked upon as inherently "good." Artur Hawkwing, until he went flaming bonkers at the end and declared war on the White Tower, was considered a great man and a force for good: he united the nations practically created civilization as the Westlanders know it today.

 

Still, we know that the Pattern is neither "good" nor "evil" and Ta'veren are spun out by the Wheel in an effort correct imbalances or "snags" in the Pattern. So, can't this mean that there are Ta'veren out there who are "evil" by a layman's definition?

 

Look at Ishamael, for example. He's been spun out by the Wheel countless times. Now, this in and of itself does not make him Ta'veren, but look at his last interaction with Lews Therin at the end of the 2nd Age. He cured the man of insanity, paving the way for the Dragon to reel in horror of his actions and commit suicide. Lews Therin was arguably one of the strongest Channelers of the day... how much more damage could he have wreaked on the world had he been allowed to wander as a madman? More importanly, the Pattern had been corrected and "re-balanced" by the Dragon's actions at the Bore (at least for the time being) and now Lews Therin was a threat and a force of imbalance that had to be corrected. Enter Ishamael whom the Pattern empowered with the ability to rectify the situation.

 

Thoughts?

[herid]

Good question. RJ commented on this

 

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

 

- The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created. I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.

 

so I guess we won't be seeing any "evil" ta'veren in aMoL and it's safe to say that none of the current baddies are ta'veren.

[dutchman1789]

Was Forest Gump a ta'veren?

[FarShainMael]

I get the impression that the balance to ta'veren, who shape the Pattern around them, is the True Power, which is destructive to the Pattern.

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Power

 

While there is little evidence in the series of what it is like to use the True Power, what there is would suggest strongly that it is a destructive force, inimical to the Pattern.

 

Also

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/tp.html

[OptimusPrime]

Ok. I have a theory on this,

 

RJ says a Darkfriend or Forsaken is unlikely to become Ta'veren. Fair enough.

 

But what if someone became a Ta'veren, and it was the Wheels plan for that Ta'veren to become a Darkfriend and do some Light-benefitting task from within the Shadow? I dont think that is out of the question.

[Apple13]

Does that mean that Rand, Mat and Perrin might lose their "ta'veren-ness" after the last battle is finished, (if it's only based on need)?

[randsc]

Does that mean that Rand, Mat and Perrin might lose their "ta'veren-ness" after the last battle is finished, (if it's only based on need)?

 

Could be. Or it could be that the no longer needed ta'veren will be snipped from the Pattern.

[Hopefire]

Does that mean that Rand, Mat and Perrin might lose their "ta'veren-ness" after the last battle is finished, (if it's only based on need)?

It's probably not a question of might, but almost certainty.

 

Well, maybe not Mat. He and Tuon will still have work to do.

[Kaznen]

Ok. I have a theory on this,

 

RJ says a Darkfriend or Forsaken is unlikely to become Ta'veren. Fair enough.

 

But what if someone became a Ta'veren, and it was the Wheels plan for that Ta'veren to become a Darkfriend and do some Light-benefitting task from within the Shadow? I dont think that is out of the question.

There was a reason the Forsaken tried to tempt the 3 over to their side in the early books. They didn't have an ta'veren of their own.

[mb]

I recall from somewhere that a taveren would not loose its taveren-ness if it becomes a darkfriend. Do not remember where.

 

I suspect only a permanent death would cause a taveren to become non-taveren. Or at least not being brought back by balefire.

[Terez]

I recall from somewhere that a taveren would not loose its taveren-ness if it becomes a darkfriend. Do not remember where.

Probably because it's not stated anywhere. However, we saw Dark ta'veren effects in TGS before Rand had his epiphany.

[OptimusPrime]

Ok. I have a theory on this,

 

RJ says a Darkfriend or Forsaken is unlikely to become Ta'veren. Fair enough.

 

But what if someone became a Ta'veren, and it was the Wheels plan for that Ta'veren to become a Darkfriend and do some Light-benefitting task from within the Shadow? I dont think that is out of the question.

There was a reason the Forsaken tried to tempt the 3 over to their side in the early books. They didn't have an ta'veren of their own.

 

Yes, of course. What Im getting at is, it could be that someone already Dark might have been Ta'veren before they went Dark. For example, I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Taim is Moridin. But my backup theory is that Taim at some point became Ta'veren before he went to the Shadow, that the Wheel INTENDED him to go Dark, and would somehow end up doing something in the last book, from within the Shadow, that benefits the Light (indirectly maybe)

 

IF he isnt Moridin

[Justanotherfacet]

Lanfear/Cyn coming good/asking for Rands help?