What actually is the Horn of Valere?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The idea that unequal ( people, things, machines, ideas, etc. - take your pick ) cannot have the same purpose or goal doesn't really make any sense.

 

Each part of any entity has its own role to play. Your toe doesn't think. Your tibia doesn't pump blood. Yet, both exist to make you possible and functional. Remove either and you no longer function as efficiently.

 

The Dragon seems to exist to function as the leader for the Heroes. The Heroes seem to exist to be the shock troops for the Dragon. The Dragon functions as the brain, setting the overall goal, and pacing the progress. The Heroes are the body, doing much of the heavy lifting, going where the brain directs and doing what the brain desires. Mutually dependent. Inseparable if either is to accomplish its function.

 

They link to each other. They link to the Wheel. And, they link through the Horn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And if the Heroes are equals to the Dragon like you suggest, screw the moron Rand and send birgitte to do the job instead. Hey, they are equals, right?

 

No. Send whichever is best for the particular job to do that job. But don't deliberately send any to help the Shadow.

 

Just because the Horn has been used against the Dragon doesn't mean it was meant for that. The One Power has been used in lots of ways it probably wasn't meant for. And besides, the Wheel didn't make the Horn, some person or people did, its a construct. Its a tool, that taps into a function of the Wheel, like a ter'angreal taps into some function of the Power. Hawkwing was describing what had happened. Birgitte was describing what was supposed to happen. The two are not always the same.

 

That said, the Dragon is described as being bound to the Wheel in precisely the same way as the Heroes. So whatever function of the Wheel that the Horn taps to call the Heroes, would call the Dragon, if he was dead at the time.

 

For yolindamo: Rand isn't dead. The Horn only calls the dead heroes. The Grave is No Bar to my Call. But if the hero (or heroine) is already alive, then he/she is not called. For the same reason, it almost certainly won't call Birgitte, or Gaidal, for that matter.

[Guest Majsju]

That said, the Dragon is described as being bound to the Wheel in precisely the same way as the Heroes. So whatever function of the Wheel that the Horn taps to call the Heroes, would call the Dragon, if he was dead at the time.

 

No, he's not. There is an obvious difference between Rand, the big kahuna, the champion of the Light, etc, and the Heroes. They are not equals.

 

To have Rand being one of the Heroes would mean that he was not The Chosen one, the unique dude who has to do the job. And as much as I like that idea, everything in the books says that rand is The Chosen, not Just One Of A Bunch Of Chosen.

[dimmu666]

To answer the actual question....

The Horn of Valere is actually the Saxophone that Kenny G lost after a performance in Bermuda. We all know that the Bermuda Triangle is where Shayol Ghul is located in our age...the DO is closest there and things get sucked into different worlds there. So obviously the saxophone landed on artur hawkwing's head and he thought, 'hey! what a neat lil instrument thingy, lets bind heroes to it so when someone blows into it they'll come back to life!...er why does it say Kenny G on the side?? no matter, he must be the Creator"

[RobertAlexWillis]

No, he's not. There is an obvious difference between Rand, the big kahuna, the champion of the Light, etc, and the Heroes. They are not equals.

 

Please cite a source that describes the difference in how Rand is bound to the Wheel, and how the others are bound to it. Relative "importance" in the weave does not change the method of binding. It could easily be argued that Artur Hawkwing is "more important" than Birgitte, or Gaidal, or many of the others. But that doesn't mean he's bound differently.

 

Incidentally, I'm somewhat amazed that there isn't an external RJ quote on this subject, its bound to have come up. Did he RAFO it? Or can I just not find it? Or am I just wrong, and it never came up?

[yolindamo]

Just because the Horn has been used against the Dragon doesn't mean it was meant for that.

 

How can the Horn be used against the Dragon if the Dragon is bound to it?

[Luckers]

The horn works for whoever blows it, and the Dragon is not bound when he is in his flesh. That being said we do not know that the horn has ever been blown against the dragon... if it was, it would work, but we have never heard of it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How can the Horn be used against the Dragon if the Dragon is bound to it?

 

Hawkwing says outright he has fought against Rand (ie the Dragon) many times. To quote, famously:

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern."

 

The Great Hunt, chapter 47 The Grave is No Bar to My Call

 

So, there are two possible ways. One, someone fighting against the Dragon uses it while the Dragon is alive. The living heroes don't answer the Horn, (The Grave is no Bar to My Call) so in that case, you've got the Dragon on one side, the dead Heroes on the other. Or, two, Hawkwing is alive, and the Dragon is dead, and someone uses the Horn. Same situation, reversed roles.

 

Just because the Heroes are bound to the Wheel to serve the Pattern doesn't mean someone can't abuse the Horn. The Horn is a tool, and like any tool, can be used for good or evil, no matter what it was intended to do.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Right. "The Wheel spins us out...", not "The Horn calls us forth...".

 

Subtle difference, but significant. Everybody gets spun out time after time. When living, they may be friends, merely allies, or enemies.

 

What happens when the Horn is sounded is something entirely different.

 

We come to the Horn, but we follow the Banner. And the Dragon.

 

Maj should be here in 5..4..3..2..

[RobertAlexWillis]

They follow the Banner and the Dragon because Rand happens to be alive and there at that moment. Hawkwing prefaces that statement with another. I'll inclus the two together for context:

 

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

The Great Hunt, chapter 47 The Grave is No Bar to My Call

 

Hawkwing specifies that the weave of "this moment" requires them to follow the Dragon and the Banner. Other circumstances can produce other results.

 

Again, how is the way that the Dragon is bound to the Wheel different from the way the other Heroes are bound to it? They are all bound to be spun out, Age after Age, as the Pattern needs them to fight the Shadow. Again, quoting Hawkwing:

 

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh."

 

Why could Rand have told them, if he could remember? Because he is subject to the same procedures. Why would the Horn call the rest of them, and exclude their leader? It wouldn't.

[Guest Majsju]

Again, how is the way that the Dragon is bound to the Wheel different from the way the other Heroes are bound to it? They are all bound to be spun out, Age after Age, as the Pattern needs them to fight the Shadow. Again, quoting Hawkwing:

 

Just look at when the Dragon is spun out: To directly confront the DO.

 

The Heroes are spun out more randomly, to correct or improve key events in the pattern. To make sure certain things happen, like Birgitte and Cain helping to found the White Tower, or Hawkwing laying siege to Tar Valon instead of bothering to even try to make his empire survive after he's gone. Which helped the foundation of Andor, which probably made it a lot easier for the Dragon to be reborn accoding to prophecy.

 

The Heroes are simply pawns, they go where the Wheel points them.

 

Why could Rand have told them, if he could remember? Because he is subject to the same procedures. Why would the Horn call the rest of them, and exclude their leader? It wouldn't.

 

Hawkwing refers to LTT's memories. In case you have forgotten, LTT lived during the AOL, when knowledge in most fields where far, far greater than anything in Rand's time. And LTT being the Tamyrlin during the war of power means he would definitly have read up on anything that might give the Light an advantage on the battlefield.

 

And, if LTT had been bound to the Horn, his constant whining about wanting to die would make absolutely no sense at all, since he would live on as one of the Heroes everytime someone tooted the Horn. And you'd think he would have made at least one tiny reference to hagning out in T'A'R for the past 3000 years during his wanting-to-die-rants, but no, not a whisper.

 

If LTT had been bound to the Horn, he would have known that dying would be pointless.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj, it seems like you're making a couple of very unwarranted assumptions here.

 

First and foremost that the soul that is shared by both Rand and LTT only gets spun out AS the Dragon. Nothing within the context of WOT supports such an assumption. Instead we are repeatedly told that ALL souls get reborn, as and when the Wheel wills.

 

The second is that the soul of the Dragon only has LTT's memories. It doesn't. When in T'a'r, it would reclaim all of the memories from all of its past lives just as all of the other Heroes of the Horn do. When in T'a'r, it is probably entirely sane. The only one of its existences known to have ended in "insanity" is that of LTT. Since it is the specific knowledge that LTT possessed that both Rand and the Wheel need for the present situation, that is the persona that the Wheel has implanted within Rand for him to access.

 

Birgitte appears as Silverbow because that is her most legendary existence. Hawkwing as Hawkwing for the same reason. The soul that Rand and LTT share is likewise known to the Heroes as Lews Therin, because that was his most legendary existence... but not his only one, just as Silverbow wasn't Birgitte's only existence, nor Hawkwing his.

 

I think of it like a coin that has been repeatedly overstruck with various dies. One die was struck with many tons of force, the others with only tens to hundreds of pounds of force. One striking would predominate. One image would stand out under the blurring of the others.

 

In Rand's case the impression that predominates is LTT, not because it is the only one, but just because it was the most forceful one.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hawkwing refers to LTT's memories.

 

Survey says? Wrong.

 

"when you wore flesh". LTT wore flesh, so obviously he couldn't remember whatever Hawkwing was talking about.

 

If LTT had been bound to the Horn, he would have known that dying would be pointless.

 

First, Lews Therin is mad. Second, since the Horn was never blown in the War of the Power, how would he have known? RJ is clear that the people in the Age of Legends viewed the Horn as a sort of legendary relic, but not many took it seriously.

 

The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

( Tor Question of the Week, Questions from December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004. Week One Answer)

 

Hawkwing only calls Rand Lews Therin because that was the last name associated with "the Dragon", not because Lews Therin had any memories of the Horn. None of the Heroes do while alive.

 

And you'd think he would have made at least one tiny reference to hagning out in T'A'R for the past 3000 years during his wanting-to-die-rants, but no, not a whisper.

 

Where was he then, if not T'A'R? Jordan says there's a regular afterlife besides the one for the Heroes, but LTT never mentions that either. He only mentions things that happened while he was alive. Because Heroes who are spun out lose their T'A'R memories. So, just because LTT doesn't rememeber hanging out in T'A'R, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Luckers]

Hawkwing refers to LTT's memories.

 

No, in point of fact he specifically excludes LTT by stating 'you could tell them, if you could but remember when you wore flesh'. The inference from that is the state in which Rand could have told them is when he is not wearing flesh. LTT had flesh, therefore he was not referencing LTT.

 

And you'd think he would have made at least one tiny reference to hagning out in T'A'R for the past 3000 years during his wanting-to-die-rants, but no, not a whisper.

 

Lews Therin's facet personality is not the overall personality of the soul anymore then Birgitte's Marion personality is the over-all personality of her soul. Lew Therin did not, as you say, hang out for three thousand years in T'A'R--or rather, the facet personality we have encountered didn't. It is no more significant than Rand, and no more bound by the overall nature of the soul. LTT does not remember because it was not that facet personality, just as Rand does not remember because likewise it wasn't his.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Somebody circle the date on a calendar.

 

Robert, Luckers, and I all basically agree on something.

 

That's historic... or as close as we're gonna get in a WOT forum. :lol:

[Guest Majsju]

First, Lews Therin is mad. Second, since the Horn was never blown in the War of the Power, how would he have known? RJ is clear that the people in the Age of Legends viewed the Horn as a sort of legendary relic, but not many took it seriously.

 

Oh, he is mad, but he is able to reason quite clearly on an almost regular basis. he is not constantly totally off the rack, if he had been Rand would not have been able to communicate and learn directly from him, which the books very clearly shows that he can.

 

And though the Horn was semi-mythological in the AOL, there must obviously have been some knowledge about it, even if people didn't quite believe in it. Otherwise, how could any knowledge at all have survived to the 3rd Age? Verin lives 3000 years after the AOL, and still manages to have at least some basic knowledge about the Horn, and yet another common theme in the books is that knowledge is lost with time.

 

People in the AOL would have had a far greater knowledge about the Horn than you give them credit for, for the simple reason that an advanced society puts great value in culture, which includes mythology. They may not believe a word, but they know what the Horn is supposed to be able to do.

 

Hawkwing only calls Rand Lews Therin because that was the last name associated with "the Dragon", not because Lews Therin had any memories of the Horn. None of the Heroes do while alive.

 

LTT is not alive, he has some kind of pseudo-existence in Rand's mind.

 

Where was he then, if not T'A'R? Jordan says there's a regular afterlife besides the one for the Heroes, but LTT never mentions that either. He only mentions things that happened while he was alive. Because Heroes who are spun out lose their T'A'R memories. So, just because LTT doesn't rememeber hanging out in T'A'R, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

The Dragon is a unique soul, how hard would it be to have him safely put away in a unique inbetween-lives existence?

And you missed one kind of afterlife, it doesn't work the way you say, that only the Heroes are reborn, normal people get reborn as well, so there must be a place for them to be. LT could easily have been waiting there, without any consciousness about being there waiting for rebirth. And the Wheel keeping tabs on him so he doesn't accidently get reborn when he's not supposed to.

 

Lews Therin's facet personality is not the overall personality of the soul anymore then Birgitte's Marion personality is the over-all personality of her soul. Lew Therin did not, as you say, hang out for three thousand years in T'A'R--or rather, the facet personality we have encountered didn't. It is no more significant than Rand, and no more bound by the overall nature of the soul. LTT does not remember because it was not that facet personality, just as Rand does not remember because likewise it wasn't his.

 

The one indication we have of which personality it is that appears is hawkwing, which we have good reason to believe was the last incarnation of that soul to have lived. Not a facet incarnation, the last incarnmation. And guess what, since the Dragon is a unique soul, he has not had any incarnations for the last 3000 years, so last incarnation = LTT.

 

And oddly enough, if the Dragon had been just another Hero, and not a unique soul destined to fight the DO, there should be at least one story about the Dragon being bound to the Horn. There are stories about Birgitte, Cain, the siblings etc so detailed that they can be immidiatly recognized. But the Dragon, who should be one of the more important heroes if he had been one? Not a word. But perhaps Birgitte is a much more important hero than Rand, just send her to shoot a few arrows at the DO and the TG will be won.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And though the Horn was semi-mythological in the AOL, there must obviously have been some knowledge about it, even if people didn't quite believe in it. Otherwise, how could any knowledge at all have survived to the 3rd Age?

 

Knowledge about it is not the same as knowing that "I am linked to this".

 

People in the AOL would have had a far greater knowledge about the Horn than you give them credit for, for the simple reason that an advanced society puts great value in culture, which includes mythology. They may not believe a word, but they know what the Horn is supposed to be able to do.

 

Again, knowing what the Horn is supposed to do, and knowing that you are attached to it, are different things. Birgitte was alive in a diferent incarnation with Lews Therin, and probably knew as much as everyone else about the Horn, but I doubt she knew that she was attached to it. So, just because Lews Therin would have known about the Horn, doesn't mean he would have living memories of an attachement to it or the Heroes.

 

LTT is not alive, he has some kind of pseudo-existence in Rand's mind.

 

I was saying that Lews Therin did not have memories of using the Horn, or doing anything with the Horn, from when he was actually alive.

 

The Dragon is a unique soul, how hard would it be to have him safely put away in a unique inbetween-lives existence?

 

Maybe, but there is nothing remotely like that in the books or any online quote I've seen. Please find it if there is one. Until then, that is pure unsupported speculation, of equal validity with "he chases purple bunnies in the Elysian fields".

 

And you missed one kind of afterlife, it doesn't work the way you say, that only the Heroes are reborn, normal people get reborn as well, so there must be a place for them to be.

 

Actually, if you re-read what I said, I said that there IS another afterlife, but Lews Therin never mentions it. You were asserting that if he was in T'A'R surely he would have mentioned it. I was saying that he doesn't mention ANY afterlife, either T'A'R or the normal person afterlife.

 

The one indication we have of which personality it is that appears is hawkwing, which we have good reason to believe was the last incarnation of that soul to have lived.

 

The modern people think of him as Hawkwing, because that was his last incarnation. But Rand sees all the Heroes as having many names. Apparently he knows them all very well. The way you would know someone after hanging out in T'A'R for a couple dozen turnings of the Wheel.

 

And oddly enough, if the Dragon had been just another Hero, and not a unique soul destined to fight the DO, there should be at least one story about the Dragon being bound to the Horn. There are stories about Birgitte, Cain, the siblings etc so detailed that they can be immidiatly recognized.

 

Those stories are about the people, not about those people being bound to the Horn. The stories are about what the people did in life. And there are plenty of stories about the Dragon. The heroes aren't recognized from their physical appearance alone, but from their iconic representations, Hawkwing from his nose and sword, Birgitte from her bow, Gaidal from his swords, Rogosh specifically from his eyes, etc. They're recognized from representations of what they did. The current Dragon will surely go down in history (as he has before) in such a way as to be iconically recognizable. Witness the Fisher piece in shah'rah.

 

But perhaps Birgitte is a much more important hero than Rand, just send her to shoot a few arrows at the DO and the TG will be won.

 

You are really riding this "relative importance" horse. So Rand is #1. Thats why the Heroes follow him when he's there and alive, whether he sounded the Horn or not. It doesn't mean that when he's dead, he's not with them. #1 can still be part of the group.

[Guest Majsju]

Again, knowing what the Horn is supposed to do, and knowing that you are attached to it, are different things. Birgitte was alive in a diferent incarnation with Lews Therin, and probably knew as much as everyone else about the Horn, but I doubt she knew that she was attached to it. So, just because Lews Therin would have known about the Horn, doesn't mean he would have living memories of an attachement to it or the Heroes.

 

When Birgitte, or any other of the Heroes are alive, they are relatively normal people, just doing extraordinary things. It would take a rather deranged mind to start thinking "Hey, I'm a blond chick who's a great archer, maybe i am Birgitte.

 

The Dragon, on the other hand, is a different story. We are talking about the big kahuna, the champion of the light here.

 

I was saying that Lews Therin did not have memories of using the Horn, or doing anything with the Horn, from when he was actually alive.

 

But he should have read up on the myths surrounding the Horn, and had there been even a whisper about the Dragon being bound to the Horn, he would have heard about it.

 

Maybe, but there is nothing remotely like that in the books or any online quote I've seen. Please find it if there is one. Until then, that is pure unsupported speculation, of equal validity with "he chases purple bunnies in the Elysian fields".

 

Just as there is nothing remotely like LTT hanging out in T'A'R for 3000 years. Not even a hint from Birgitte, who should ahve ran into him quite a few times, and has shared some parts of what she remembers with Elayne.

 

Actually, if you re-read what I said, I said that there IS another afterlife, but Lews Therin never mentions it. You were asserting that if he was in T'A'R surely he would have mentioned it. I was saying that he doesn't mention ANY afterlife, either T'A'R or the normal person afterlife.

 

And as I said when I gave the alternative you so happily left out, the reason why he doesn't mention any afterlife might very well be because he doesn't remember sharing the same afterlife as most people do, namely waiting to be reborn. Not only the heroes are reborn, but since it appears only the heroes waits in T'A'R, where are all the other souls waiting? What RJ said about "normal afterlife" refers to those who don't get reborn.

 

The modern people think of him as Hawkwing, because that was his last incarnation. But Rand sees all the Heroes as having many names. Apparently he knows them all very well. The way you would know someone after hanging out in T'A'R for a couple dozen turnings of the Wheel.

 

Or, it's a memory from being the Dragon Reborn. Just because LTT never tooted the Horn doesn't mean no previous incarnation of the Dragon didn't do it. And LTT should have fought alongside quite a few of the Heroes during the war of power, though we only know about Birgitte and Cain for sure.

 

Those stories are about the people, not about those people being bound to the Horn. The stories are about what the people did in life. And there are plenty of stories about the Dragon. The heroes aren't recognized from their physical appearance alone, but from their iconic representations, Hawkwing from his nose and sword, Birgitte from her bow, Gaidal from his swords, Rogosh specifically from his eyes, etc. They're recognized from representations of what they did. The current Dragon will surely go down in history (as he has before) in such a way as to be iconically recognizable. Witness the Fisher piece in shah'rah.

 

But yet, the stories does recognize them as being bound to the Horn. Which they don't do about the dragon, the Dragon has a very different representation.

 

You are really riding this "relative importance" horse. So Rand is #1. Thats why the Heroes follow him when he's there and alive, whether he sounded the Horn or not. It doesn't mean that when he's dead, he's not with them. #1 can still be part of the group.

 

In any functining group, if #1 fails, #2 should be able to take over and get the job done. Think that would happen if Rand fails?

[dyring]

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters' date='" Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon." [/quote']

 

And yet its specified that they follow whoever blows the horn - even if its a darkfriend - Alas, they followed the dragon and his banner in that specific instance. Not always.

 

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel' date=' spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh."[/quote']

 

Why could Rand have told them, if he could remember? Because he is subject to the same procedures. Why would the Horn call the rest of them, and exclude their leader? It wouldn't.

 

There is another way to read that.

Back then, he didnt have the voice of LT in his head yet.

I say this "You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." Means that if he was still LT, he would know, cause when LT wore flesh in the AoL, he knew.

 

Meaning today´s Rand in the same situation would know, since LT would tell him.

 

//dyring

 

*edit*, Could someone tell me what Im doing wrong with my quotes? Or some moderatortype fix it? :p

 

*edit no 2*

Besides, anyoing with all who´s 100% sure here, Im leaning heavily on him not being bound in that way, (and he have most certainly not been spun out since LT) but how anyone can think its dead sure is beyond me. Certainity is the path to stagnation, doubt is what keeps you learning.

[Luckers]

When Birgitte, or any other of the Heroes are alive, they are relatively normal people, just doing extraordinary things. It would take a rather deranged mind to start thinking "Hey, I'm a blond chick who's a great archer, maybe i am Birgitte.

 

The Dragon, on the other hand, is a different story. We are talking about the big kahuna, the champion of the light here.

 

So what? Rand's like a specialist tool, to be used only when there is need for specifically what he does. Doesn't mean he doesn't sit in the the toolbox with the rest of the tools whilst waiting to be needed.

 

But he should have read up on the myths surrounding the Horn, and had there been even a whisper about the Dragon being bound to the Horn, he would have heard about it.

 

Why? The last time the horn was blown was over 4000 years ago, at which times no one knew of either the Dark One, or the Dragon's soul. Why would anyone recognise him, even if he did lead? Certainly it wouldn't be significant enough for it to be written down and remembered through all the upheval since then.

 

Just as there is nothing remotely like LTT hanging out in T'A'R for 3000 years. Not even a hint from Birgitte, who should ahve ran into him quite a few times, and has shared some parts of what she remembers with Elayne.

 

You mean other then Hawkwing specifically referencing knowledge of what LTT does or does not know when he is not alive? Or the heroes treating him like a close, close friend, despite the fact that if what you say is true they've met him at best twice in the entire turning of the wheel?

 

 

In any functining group, if #1 fails, #2 should be able to take over and get the job done. Think that would happen if Rand fails?

 

The world would go on, at least for a time. RJ has made it very clear that Rand can die before achieving his goals, or be turned away from them, or fail them. That point is moot because it holds wether or not Rand is a bound hero.

 

The Dragon is a unique soul, how hard would it be to have him safely put away in a unique inbetween-lives existence?

 

You mean like... oh, i dont know... stashing him in T'A'R were he is protected by the precepts? Your right, i dont think it would be terribly hard. What i do think is idiotic is for something like the wheel to create a special shoebox for one soul when it already has a function that exists to serve that.

 

The one indication we have of which personality it is that appears is hawkwing, which we have good reason to believe was the last incarnation of that soul to have lived. Not a facet incarnation, the last incarnmation. And guess what, since the Dragon is a unique soul, he has not had any incarnations for the last 3000 years, so last incarnation = LTT.

 

Well thats just blatantly wrong. Birgitte shows herself to be an amalgamation of all her lives, not just a continuence of the most recent. The use of the names Birgitte, Hawkwing, LTT... its merely for recognizability.

 

There is another way to read that.

Back then, he didnt have the voice of LT in his head yet.

I say this "You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." Means that if he was still LT, he would know, cause when LT wore flesh in the AoL, he knew.

 

Actually its fairly specific. LTT cannot remember when he is wearing flesh, ergo it is not the result of memories from LTT's physical life.

[Guest Majsju]

So what? Rand's like a specialist tool, to be used only when there is need for specifically what he does. Doesn't mean he doesn't sit in the the toolbox with the rest of the tools whilst waiting to be needed.

 

So, equal, but still not quite equal? Trying to eat the cookie but still keep it, eh?

 

You can't have it both ways. Either Rand is the chosen one, the champion of the light and all that jazz. Or, he is just another hero. Replacable, not unique. The story so far does not quite agree with that picture.

 

Why? The last time the horn was blown was over 4000 years ago, at which times no one knew of either the Dark One, or the Dragon's soul. Why would anyone recognise him, even if he did lead? Certainly it wouldn't be significant enough for it to be written down and remembered through all the upheval since then.

 

And yet there are stories about the real heroes, who should be way less significant in the collective mind of the people. People can remember the stories about Birgitte, but not about the Dragon? Sorry man, but come on.

 

You mean other then Hawkwing specifically referencing knowledge of what LTT does or does not know when he is not alive? Or the heroes treating him like a close, close friend, despite the fact that if what you say is true they've met him at best twice in the entire turning of the wheel?

 

Twice at best? We have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever regarding what happens in three of the Ages. We've got glimpses of the beginning of the 4th Age, we know what ended the 1st Age, between that, all we know is that at some point channeling disappears from mankind, and the memory of the DO must be completely removed. That still leaves a lot of room for there being need for the dragon to walk the world at some point. As RJ said, not all encounters between the Dragon and the DO are the big fights LTT and Rand faces.

 

The world would go on, at least for a time. RJ has made it very clear that Rand can die before achieving his goals, or be turned away from them, or fail them. That point is moot because it holds wether or not Rand is a bound hero.

 

And the story more than indicates that if Rand screws up, the DO wins. Of course Rand can fail, it would be rather pointless to have a fight if the DO had zero chance of success.

 

Well thats just blatantly wrong. Birgitte shows herself to be an amalgamation of all her lives, not just a continuence of the most recent. The use of the names Birgitte, Hawkwing, LTT... its merely for recognizability.

 

And where exactly does Birgitte say that? Hawkwing shows himself as the last incarnation he had, are you suggesting he just did that so people who had never seen his face would recognize him?

 

*edit*, Could someone tell me what Im doing wrong with my quotes? Or some moderatortype fix it? :p

 

That particular function is broken, and has been for months. Just remove the ="username", and it works again.

[Luckers]

So, equal, but still not quite equal? Trying to eat the cookie but still keep it, eh?

 

You can't have it both ways. Either Rand is the chosen one, the champion of the light and all that jazz. Or, he is just another hero. Replacable, not unique. The story so far does not quite agree with that picture.

 

I never said was in anyway the chosen one or anything. Indeed, RJ's writing style--high fantasy--seems to forbid such foolishness. Rand is just an extremely powerful soul, one called upon when the Wheel is being distorted by the dark One in a bid to self-correct. It he died or turned to the Shadow, the Wheel would weave on, still attemtping to correst.

 

And yet there are stories about the real heroes, who should be way less significant in the collective mind of the people. People can remember the stories about Birgitte, but not about the Dragon? Sorry man, but come on.

 

People can't remember stories about Lews Theirn? When did this happen? And where are these multitude of stories about Birgitte when she's been summoned on the Horn?

 

Twice at best? We have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever regarding what happens in three of the Ages. We've got glimpses of the beginning of the 4th Age, we know what ended the 1st Age, between that, all we know is that at some point channeling disappears from mankind, and the memory of the DO must be completely removed. That still leaves a lot of room for there being need for the dragon to walk the world at some point. As RJ said, not all encounters between the Dragon and the DO are the big fights LTT and Rand faces.

 

I was speaking so far in this turning of the Wheel. But ok sure, say its 20 times. The wheel is shooting out LTT willy-nilly... still doesn't explain the heroes treating him like a friend. Birgitte is never a figure of power, she would at best have crossed paths with the LTT soul in the same way a hero in the army would have crossed paths with Bush. He might have given her a medal at some stage... nothing more.

 

Moreover, you just admittted that Rand's soul is called on at other times... yup, thats a generic hero for you, not some super-magical Chosen One come from his special shoe-box just so he can feel that bit more special.

 

Just to clarify... your saying that Rand's is a soul kept by the Wheel, spun out at need as a part of a self-correcting machenism, to serve the wheel in large and heroic deeds both against the Shadow, and seemingly in general. And your saying that heroes are souls kept by the wheel, spun out as part of a self-correcting machenism, to serve the wheel in large and heroic deeds both against the shadow, and in general... but that the two are completely unlinked, despite the intimation from Hawkwing that LTT's soul when its not in his body has a personal experience with the existence of the heroes, and the inclusive way in which the heroes treat him...

 

I'm sorry, but wow...

 

And the story more than indicates that if Rand screws up, the DO wins. Of course Rand can fail, it would be rather pointless to have a fight if the DO had zero chance of success.

 

Yes, and the same holds true of half a hundred other souls. If Elayne and Nynaeve had failed to correct the weather, the Dark One would have won. If Moiraine had failed in half a hundred of her endevours, the Dark One would have won. Cadsuane, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, individual Aiel Maidens. Rand is one soul, man. An integral one, true, but still just one. If he is lost, the world would go on just as if Egwene were lost. They very likely would lose against the Dark One--though in truth even that isn't assured--but the wheel itself would no more notice his passing then it would Egwenes.

 

And where exactly does Birgitte say that? Hawkwing shows himself as the last incarnation he had, are you suggesting he just did that so people who had never seen his face would recognize him?

 

Birgitte references her past lives constantly. ALL of them, not one. She is the sum product. And Hawkwing never showed himself to be just his previous life. They NAME him Hawkwing, and he has physical resembelences... as indeed he would, being an amalgamation of all of his lives living in a place where thought decides how you look. Just as they name other heroes by recognisable names, needing to settle on one... but they also detect other names--some they obviously have never heard before. They pick up on all of their personalities, and focus on the one that is best known. Doesn't somehow magically remove the others.

 

he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not even recognise them as names at all, though he knew they were. Micheal instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Ostarin.

 

The inference is obvious. Names he did not recognise but somehow knew... plucked from their very nature as amalgamated beings.

[matrimmlm]

ok i've got lost in all the technicalities(sp?)

the reason Bridgete can remember her past lives is because she was ripped out of TrN. Rand is bound to the horn but not as the others. He is always the deciding factor in the last battle whether he's there or not. ltt has fought the last battle many times but not against the DO directly. supposedly this is THE LAST battle. the one to end all!!! Mat blew the horn so is connected to the horn, rand is connected to Mat by being Ta'vern remember the swirling colors and shared visions. and like stated before hte horn cn work for anyone who blows it. good or evil. and when the horn is blown at Falme it does kinda raise Rand to a suopernatural status. he's fighting in the SKY. it's seen all over the world. and like said before the pattern spits the heros out as needed some its 30 yrs some 60 some 3000 years.Gaidain i always thought was Aram, but nowhe's dead i think oliver.and has anyone thought that LTT in rands head might not be LTT but maybe Moridin. then you've got mat with MANY people in his head. i think the horn has been around for MANY Ages. waiting for hte right time to be spun out again.

 

 

"the wheel of time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is longforgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. in one Age,called the Third Age by some, an Age yetto come, an Age long past,..."

[Luckers]

The Last Battle is a human name, and does not indicate any actual finality to this particular confrontation between Light and Shadow.

 

Neither Aram nor Olver could be Gaidal Cain, because both were born before Gaidal was woven out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod. RJ has stated this. Gaidal is currently a baby, or at best an infant.

 

LTT's voice is LTT's, as it displays knowledge even Moridin would not know. Additionally the link between Moridin and Rand occured after LTT first appeared... indeed, at that time Moridin had not as yet been recycled.

[matrimmlm]

the last battle night be a human name but it has been said a couple of times at least that this is "THE Final Battle" so many pages i dont know exactly where it is found and i dont have all my books right now but if you reread it i know its in there somewhere that's why this is such a big deal. if i remember right it is said fairly early on (the first 2 or 3 books, pretty sure its in the last half of the first book though.

as for aram and oliver i know it can't be them but i did the first time through, i wish my memory was better i think someonewas mentioned that might have been Gaidal.

 

for now bye