Logain and the RedAjah

[demonspawn]

I know that Siuan Sanche Lied when she said that the Red Ajah used Logain.

 

But what if, while lying she actually hit on a truth?

 

Think about it, Galina Casban, who is a known Black Ajah was Head of the Red Ajah for 18 years.

 

How long has the red ajah headed the hunt for male chanellers,and think of Owyn, Thom Merrilyns nephew

[Luckers]

What happened to Owyn happened as a part of the Vileness, something which was discovered and put a stop to. The three Sitters were punished, though others were involved... Elaida for one. But nevertheless the Vileness was stopped, as was the wanton slaughter of 'lucky men' incited by the Black Ajah at the same time.

 

In any case, they would have been more likely to summarily gentle Logain, then to set him up as a False Dragon. It seems unlikely such a thing happened.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Setting up a false Dragon is more likely to be the work of the Black Ajah, but since Galina was Black (although she still lives, it doesn't seem like she's anything more than a pack mule now), all of the Red's actions during that period are suspect.

 

There isn't enough evidence in the books for me to reach a decision, but I think that it is plausible that a small group of Reds who were actually Black would set Logain up at that time in that way. If that is the case, did Siuan really know? Not likely. She assuredly thought she was lying for the purpose of bringing down Elaida, but I think it very possible that she accidently hit on the truth.

[Dark Justice]

yes. that is a very likely option.

And, as you say. All the actions of the reds the last 18 years is now up for question of being suspect. Including EVERY false dragon, or male channelers.

When you are black Ajah, and know The Dragon Reborne is

gonna be the one to oppose the DO, I guess you put extra much effort into finding & stilling all male chanelers.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, it simply strikes me as unlikely that any darkfriend would set up a man who could channel as the Dragon with full knowledge that the Dragon had been born and was out there at that very moment.

 

No, Logains thing was entirely derived by Suine.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry, it simply strikes me as unlikely that any darkfriend would set up a man who could channel as the Dragon with full knowledge that the Dragon had been born and was out there at that very moment.

 

Why is that unlikely? It would certainly lead to chaos .... as it did. Many people were/are unwilling to trust Rand and/or are afraid of him because of what Logain and Mazrim Taim did.

[Luckers]

Its unlikely becaue they do not know who the Dragon really is... do you really see them setting up someone who could potentially be their ultimate enemy.

 

I certainly don't.

 

And yes, they knew he was around in that specific time period. That is what led to both the Vileness and the Black Ajah campeign.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its unlikely becaue they do not know who the Dragon really is... do you really see them setting up someone who could potentially be their ultimate enemy.

 

 

They would be able to know who isn't the Dragon though. If they could confirm that the male channeler in question was not born on the slopes of Dragonmount during the Blood Snow, then they would know he is not the Dragon, and so setting him up as a False Dragon is a good means of creating chaos, without aiding the enemy. I believe Logain is several years older than Rand, so they could no doubt confirm his birth as being outside the proper time frame.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're getting sloppy again.

 

Whatsherface had her prophetic vision and then dropped dead. The Amyrlin, Siuan, and Moiraine were the only ones who heard that prophesy. They told noone else. The Amyrlin was assassinated. Siuan and Moiraine are the only people alive who know the time and place of the Dragon's rebirth.

[algspkr]

The Amerlyn in New Spring told 5 (I think) Aes Sedai about the Foretelling of Rand. Moriane and Suian also knew. The Black Ajah tortured the Amerlyn and found out that the Dragon had been reborn, but not when. They killed the searchers, and set about killing any man they thought could channell. Ishameal put a stop to this.

 

The possibility of the Reds setting up Logain under Galina exists, but I do not believe that she or any Aes Sedai would do it without orders from Ishamael. As for motive, I do not think it was an effort at creating chaos so much as an attempt to disilousion the world with the notion of a Dragon Reborn.

[Luckers]

Indeed, espcially on the off chance that they could acually be setting up the real Dragon Reborn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You're getting sloppy again.

 

Whatsherface had her prophetic vision and then dropped dead. The Amyrlin, Siuan, and Moiraine were the only ones who heard that prophesy. They told noone else. The Amyrlin was assassinated. Siuan and Moiraine are the only people alive who know the time and place of the Dragon's rebirth.

 

No, this time you're sloppy. I'm not claiming that Ishamael knew about Gitara Moroso's fortelling, but he had to have SOME way of having a time frame for Rand's age by the time he sent the Trollocs to the Two Rivers. The reason that Ishamael wasn't 100 percent sure which of the three Two Rivers ta'veren was the Dragon at first in The Eye of the World is because they were all the same age. If Ishamael was uncertain because of a similarity in age, that means that he had information on how old the Dragon Reborn is. Since Logain was active at the same time this was happening, that means that Ishamael, who was in charge to the Black Ajah, which was in charge of the Rad Ajah, knew the age range for Rand at the time that they would have been encouraging both Logain and Mazrim Taim, if that is what happened. Therefore, since Logain is outside that narrow age range (Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all within weeks of each other), the Black Ajah could very well have known for certain that Logain was not the real Dragon Reborn, and Black sisters posing as Reds could have been responsible for setting him up.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As you point out, he had some general knowledge... or suspicion, at any rate.

 

Whatever he did know, had to have come to him very lately, else there would have been a rash of infant deaths or kidnappings years before.

 

His interest in The Two Rivers may only have been in trying to find out why Moiraine would be headed there. His interest in those three boys would have been because they were the three in which she had shown an interest.

 

The implication in that, for me, is that he's keeping tabs on Moiraine. He isn't sure what exactly she's about, but he is sure that it isn't good for his side. Once she shows an interest in them, both the town and the farm are attacked. Until then, he's just keeping the place under observation until she arrives and tips her hand.

 

IOW, initially he knows nothing more than that Moiraine has been out of the tower for years and searching for something the whole time. Exactly what or whom she is seeking - he probably only has vague suspicions. It isn't until her interest becomes specific that his suspicions become firm enough to provoke action.

 

The fact that he is at least suspicious is borne out by Fain. He was recruited and then altered to become a bloodhound on the scent of the Dragon. Fain + Moiraine + 3 boys all about the same age = DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER! DANGER!

[RobertAlexWillis]

The implication in that, for me, is that he's keeping tabs on Moiraine. He isn't sure what exactly she's about, but he is sure that it isn't good for his side. Once she shows an interest in them, both the town and the farm are attacked. Until then, he's just keeping the place under observation until she arrives and tips her hand.

 

The attack happened the day after she met them, and the Myrdraal were stalking the three boys before Moiraine met them. If Ishamael were simply "keeping tabs on Moiraine" it would have taken him at least a couple of days to move the Trollocs into the Two Rivers, after somehow establishing that she had found what she was looking for.

 

It isn't until her interest becomes specific that his suspicions become firm enough to provoke action.

 

How would he know when THAT happened? She and Lan traveled alone, and even Siuan her co-conspirator barely knew what she was doing at any moment. What would distinguish her trip to the Two Rivers from any of the hundreds of others since the Blood Snow?

 

The fact that he is at least suspicious is borne out by Fain.

 

Actually, the use of Fain indicates that Ishamael was already looking in the Two Rivers 2-3 years before Moiraine ever set foot in the place. So his knowledge or suspicion must have come from a source other than Moiraine.

 

In any case, the Black Ajah under his direction would have been well able to set up Logain and/or Taim as False Dragons, confident that they were not the real thing.

[Guest Majsju]

Actually, the use of Fain indicates that Ishamael was already looking in the Two Rivers 2-3 years before Moiraine ever set foot in the place. So his knowledge or suspicion must have come from a source other than Moiraine.

 

Well, Gitara may not have been the only person in the world having a Foretelling regarding Rand's birth. We know that there are Dark prophecies reagrding other things, after all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Myrrdraal weren't specifically "stalking the boys." They were scouting and observing the whole area.

 

Each of the three just happened to be alert enough to spot them in the process of that scouting and general observation.

 

Fain was a tinker ( small t ), who traveled throughout a wide area selling his wares and mending pots and pans. That area happened to include The Two Rivers, but there was nothing in particular about that particular little village that made anybody suspicious until Moiraine headed there.

 

If Ishy's knowledge had been as complete as you are suggesting, Fain wouldn't have been necessary. Scouting wouldn't have been necessary. The Trollocs would have just moved in and murdered everyone before Moiraine got within a hundred miles of the place.

 

They did not do that. They lacked enough specific information about what the danger actually was. Was it a person? A group? Some *angreal or other THING? What was it Moiraine was seeking?

 

Moiraine and Fain being in the same place at a time when she was showing interest in young men of a particular age was the tipoff to exactly where the danger lay. Once they knew that, they acted immediately. The fact that they acted as promptly as they did tells us that they were observing Moiraine very closely, indeed. The fact that the attacks were aimed specifically at Mat, Perrin and Rand, and nobody else, tells us how detailed their observation of her was.

[Luckers]

Has it occured to anyone that Ishy's eye was drawn to the Two Rivers by the three Ta'veren becoming ta'veren. We know the effect can be sensed, and three of them together in a remote region must resonate with the pattern--something Ishy MUST have been seraching for with knowledge that the Dragon was alive and kicking.

 

So no, Robert, i dont see Ishy needing to know their age. He knew the three were ta'veren, and therefore it made sense that one of them would be the Dragon, he only had to find out which one... so he sent Fain in to investigate.

[akuhn]

actually the dark one knew before moiraine. in book one while in fal dara when fain is caught moiraine said that he knew who he was looking for.

 

book 1: page 714:: three springs ago he stayued longer and the year after that he was able to choose out his targets more clearly. fain nknew for certain the one he sought was one of those 3. ba'alzamon apeared in a dream and so on

[Luckers]

Indeed, which means that something was detected in that region, something that piqued Ishy's curiosity enough to send in someone to check. Each year, as their ta'verenism grew stronger Fain was able to hone in a later more, he was only confused by the fact that there was three when he was obviously expecting one.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ishamael would still have detected the ta'veren-ness before Moiraine arrived, because there were already Myrdraal and Trollocs in place when the boys got to town and Moiraine met them. They raided that very night.

 

The whole point is that over a period of years, Ishamael had been honing in on a region and age range. Logain only started his rampage a few months before the beginning of The Eye of the World, if that long. So by the time Logain got his start, Ishamael had it narrowed down to a point where he would have known it wasn't Logain, even if he couldn't yet say "It's Rand al'Thor, of 2110 Maple Drive, Two Rivers, Andor, 18992" And so Logain could have been set up by the Shadow to remind people how bad False Dragons are, increase general mistrust of male channelers, and make life harder in general for the real Dragon Reborn who was about to make his appearance.

[Luckers]

Yes Ishy would have been aware of it before Moiraine. Indeed that is proven by Fain's presense in the Two Rivers three years before Moiraine came. Just as their ta'verenism started to assert itself. Not eneough for specific identification, but enough for general localisation.

 

We know Ishy was hunting the three boys by their ta'verenism early on. And on the other hand there is absolutely no proof of Ishy focusing on a specific age range--indeed, there is proof against it, as we see in New Spring--admittedly that is only the Black Ajah, and Ishy may have had information they didn't, but then he may as equally have not... indeed if he had he would have corrected them. He didn't.

 

So, over a period of years Ishy was honing in on a region... then on a specific group of kids. We have information that suggests that he did not have an age range, therefore we must conclude that something else was what drew him--and we know that he was identifying them early on by there ta'verenism.

 

As for Logain, if he was identified when said, that dates at around the time Fainw as first sent to the the Two Rivers, something you can be sure given the pallid nature of the suspicions Ishy would not have been sharing with the Black Ajah (indeed, we know he didn't because Alviarin never encountered a Forsaken to the main sequence books.)

 

So no, i do not see the Blacks setting up someone who is potentially the Dragon Reborn. Not even remotely.

[RobertAlexWillis]

(indeed, we know he didn't because Alviarin never encountered a Forsaken to the main sequence books.)

 

So, Ishamael couldn't have given any instructions to any other members of the Black Ajah? And told them not to tell Alviarin? Ishamael is the king of "let not thy right hand know what thy left hand doeth".

 

As for Logain, if he was identified when said, that dates at around the time Fainw as first sent to the the Two Rivers

 

Fain was first sent to the Two Rivers at least 2 years before that fateful Winternight. Logain had not been active for two years before he was captured, he had been active for less than one year. So, Ishamael had at least two reports from Fain before Logain became active, including the reports that made him decide to send the Trollocs and Myrdraal, before Logain became active. In other words, when Logain became active, Ishamael already pretty much knew he was not the Dragon. Ishy could detect ta'veren, and Logain was not. He was not the right age. If the Black Ajah could confirm his birth anywhere other than Dragonmount, then they would know it was not him. It is alot easier to confirm that someone is not the Dragon, than that someone is. It would not have been difficult at all to confirm that Logain was not it.

 

Incidentally, if the Black Ajah did find the real one, why wouldn't they set him up, under their control? Ishamael spent a great deal of effort in the first few books trying to put just such a leash on Rand. If the Black Ajah had control of the real Dragon from the start, it would make their job alot easier.

 

That said, I'm pretty sure they would be able to know that Logain was not the real Dragon. I'm not saying it is certain that he actually was set up. But I am saying that it is very possible.

[Luckers]

Actually no, according to his story the sisters found him over a year before he proclaimed himself which was about six months before he was captured. This was before Fain's second visit, which was the visit in which Fain became sure that his prey were there, though he did not know them yet.

 

Which means, my friend, that the Aes Sedai would have been instating him when even Ishy didn't know who was who and what he was sensing... certainly LONG before he sent any shadowspawn south.

 

And your suggesting that he happened to mention to some random low level black sister that if they wanted to they could set up men who can channel as long as they weren't from the Two Rivers?

 

Ignoring why he would leave Alviarin out of the loop, or why on earth he would bother telling ANY of the Aes Sedai, do you really see him doing that after the Vileness? He wants LTT's soul, not his death.

 

And the Blacks certainly wouldn't have done it on their own decision, not know who or where the Dragon Reborn may be.

 

It was a fabrication of Suine's.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually no, according to his story the sisters found him over a year before he proclaimed himself which was about six months before he was captured. This was before Fain's second visit, which was the visit in which Fain became sure that his prey were there, though he did not know them yet.

 

Which means, my friend, that the Aes Sedai would have been instating him when even Ishy didn't know who was who and what he was sensing... certainly LONG before he sent any shadowspawn south.

 

Actually, that means things played out in this order:

 

Red (maybe Black) Ajah finds Logain

 

Fain reports to Ishamael for the last time

 

Logain proclaims himself

 

Winternight

 

Logain did not proclaim himself until long after the Sisters supposedly found him. In the course of that year, Ishamael gets the convincing report that centers things in the Two Rivers, and not on Logain. So, he tells them to set Logain up, now knowing that he is not the real Dragon.

 

Ignoring why he would leave Alviarin out of the loop, or why on earth he would bother telling ANY of the Aes Sedai, do you really see him doing that after the Vileness? He wants LTT's soul, not his death.

 

Apparently there was some discipline in the Black Ajah following the Vileness, that resulted in Alviarin's ascension. The whole point of disciplining a subservient group is to ensure their future dependability. So, after disciplining them, he would have trusted the remaining Black Sisters (as much as he ever trusted anyone) to carry out his orders.

 

As to why he would circumvent Alviarin, there are lots of examples of Ishamael keeping underlings partially or fully in the dark (no pun intended). It is a method of control. Knowledge is power, and Ishamael is careful not to spread too much power among his underlings.

 

And the Blacks certainly wouldn't have done it on their own decision, not know who or where the Dragon Reborn may be.

 

It would not be impossible for the Black Sisters to confirm that Logain was born somewhere other than Dragonmount, and therefore, not the real Dragon.

 

Again, let me say: I'm only contending that this is a possibility, not saying it is proven by the text. The opportunity was there. I firmly believe that Siuan does not believe the story is true, she thought she was lying. If she hit the truth, it was accidental. But the possibility of it being true is part of what allowed her to sell it so easily. (The other part, admittedly, was the need for the Salidar Aes Sedai to believe something that bad about Elaida.)

[Bob T Dwarf]

There is some slight corroboration for what Siuan said actually being true.

 

Ba'alzamon names off the previous False Dragons, one-by-one, including Logain as being puppets of the White Tower.

 

Granted, he's trying to manipulate Rand into joining the Dark, but that doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. That the Tower, or at least one faction within it, didn't get behind Logain and push.

 

If they did, Siuan could have learned about it and be telling nothing but the truth.